Focused Feedback: Plant Control

[The Curator]

Focused Feedback - Plant Control

Plant Control:

 

 Spore Burst

• Upgraded to Deep Sleep.

 

 Seeds of Confusion

• Scale reduced from scale 20 to scale 8.
• Endurance cost lowered from to 15.6 to 8.528
• This power now has Adaptive Recharge. It has a base recharge of 7 seconds, and each affected foe will increase the recharge by 7.5 seconds for a maximum total of 100 seconds. 
• Target cap lowered from 16 to 10. Reverted

 

 Spirit Tree

• Cast time lowered from 3.2s to 1.67s.
• Recharge reduced from 200s to 120s.
• Duration reduced from 90s to 60s.
• Spirit tree can now be attacked.
• Spirit tree now taunts and has a scaling defense and resist aura.
• Even after being defeated, spirit tree's regen aura should remain.
• Resistances have been further improved

 

 Vines

• Now summons a Pseudopet that will continue to hold enemies up to 60 seconds.
• Recharge lowered from 240s to 180s
• Cast Time reduced from 3.1s to 2.1s
• Now inflict damage over time on its targets.
• Now applies a -DMG debuff on targets.
• Now accepts damage set and enhancements.

 

 Carrion Creepers

• VFX now moves along with the pet patch.
• Carrion Creepers can now proc Domination, Containment and Overpower.
• This power should no longer execute an excessive proc cascade.
• Vines should now be able to trigger Containment (for reals this time)

 

 Fly Trap

• AI mode changed from Pet_Base to Pet_Ranged.
• Resistances have been improved
• Pet should use Smash more often if in range (but maybe not, pets dont always listen... not even to us)

 

 

Quote

Design Notes:

We are aware this will initially stir some reactions. Please test these changes before making your final judgements. With the introduction of Deep Sleep, we are seeking to re-adjust the set balance so its not as focused on 2 powers.

 

You may have noticed, we are standardizing confuse powers to 90s recharge with a lower scale. Spirit Tree will continue to work as it always did, but now also can dub as a pseudo-tank, at least for limited window. This will not come at any cost, as even if defeated the +regen portion will persists for its standard duration.

 

Similar to some of the other sets we mentioned above, Vines is getting a pseduopet revamp. We are not looking to homogenize all the 240s holds into the same form, instead we are trying to give them a some flavor, but some may be a bit similar. You should find this new incarnation much more useful.

 

Finally, Carrion Creepers was implemented in a way that interacted with multiple procs in an abusive way. The pet had many powers that created other pets that executed other powers resulting in sometimes triple proc rates, bypassing all safeguards the game has to prevent such things. This is being finally adjusted in this iteration. We expect all the additional buffs to other powers, especially in controller containment capabilities, to result in a much more well rounded set.

[Catalyze]

1. This post is meant for Developers and not Any Forum Poster.

2. I have 3 Plant Controllers at level 53 on Live: 2 Plant/Dark and 1 Plant/Time

3. I tested a version of my Plant/Dark today on Beta and these are my thoughts/opinions. 

4. My opinions/thoughts are based on play feelings with very few hard numbers. Numbers don't make me

want to play CoH. World of Warcraft is a numbers game. CoH is a feelings game to me.

 

I wanted to have a repeatable mission that I could adjust builds and difficulties without varying much else, so I ran the Oro flashback mission of Marauders Cell 1.16 . I chose this because Marauder has no exotic damage types, stands by himself, does hard melee damage of smashing/lethal, and is 50% resistant to Smashing damage. At low health he goes really resistant to damage. This is all from a P2W analyzer and notes on all AV's that I have accumulated over time on Beta. He is in a warehouse and not a cave/base so I can Hover or stand without problems.

 

Run on Live: The time was 23 minutes to click the portal. I did this toon first since it would be the "bar" for performance. The mission was run on +2/4 . This was comfortable to me since it works to be 1 level higher than my Incarnate equipped Live controller. I used nothing except the Alpha of Agility. This controller is Ranged Defense capped at 49% with Fade. I used No inspirations or any other Incarnate. Marauder died with a lot of healing on my Flytrap. The pet took damage in chunks and I almost had Healing in a rotation. Most damage was probably from 4 procs in Carrion Creepers and 4 procs in Strangler. He isn't going to sleep/hold for any appreciable time so it's just debuff him, stay out of melee (except for end replacement), heal Flytrap and spam Strangler. Dark Pet (aka Fluffy) was toast midway thru the fight. Marauder fight was the same as I remember from doing the MJ mission for Portal Jockey a few years ago. It's a grind but Carrion Creepers just whittle away with the non resisted damage type procs (Cold, Psionic, etc) and the same with Stranger's procs. The rest of the mob packs were active with Creepers, Roots, and Vines. Vines is off cooldown for each movement down the halls since this controller doesn't dispatch mobs like a Scrapper.  Oh, Spirit Tree was dropped in mob packs sometimes and not on Marauder. I actually forgot I had it in the build.

 

Run 1 on Beta: The time was 26 minutes with roughly the same build but No Spirit Tree. Spore Burst took its place since so much of this powerset's adjustment seems to be based on it and Carrion Creepers. The playstyle was a lot different. What to use as an opener was not clear cut to me. Confuse a pack, sit around and watch your xp not happen. Confuse a pack and Strangle the misses while your xp disappears. Sleep a pack, Strangle the misses, drop Roots for some kind of damage AOE, drop Carrion Creepers for more damage....etc. This run was a learning experience and a mess. Marauder died slowly......really slowly........really....slowly. No Creeper procs, Roots won't help much, Vines does something over the course of 1 minute, and Flytrap is pathetic....BUT sturdy!!! 2 heals is all it took for the fight and I was impressed but not by the damage. It felt like a taunting target dummy would have made the fight the same.

 

Run 2 on Beta: The time was 20 minutes with Damage Set in Vines replacing the AT set (mostly control improvements). No procs were placed in Carrion Creepers since the combat log rarely showed them doing anything in Run 1. Damage set in Creepers instead. Tactics changed. On Marauder, I just dumped Anything that cold do Any damage under him, on him, and in his car trunk. I dropped Roots, Vines, Creepers, Flytrap, Strangler, and debuffed him as usual. I didn't care, if it had a damage component, I threw it at him. I don't think Flytrap has a damage component.....seriously.....even 5 slotted with Recharge Intensive set (4 pieces) and a crafted level 50 Damage in slot 5, Flytrap is a Pansy in disguise. However, the mob packs on the way to the Portal were different. I was getting much more familiar with the New changes.

 

Vines: Very nice now. Most packs got them and they work a treat. I can wander in and grab endurance off the mobs nicely. They seem to hit most everything.

 

Spore Burst: See above...lol. Very nice now and all I had to do was Strangle the very few misses.  I would take this power in every build now. Never had it before since Sleep is a TF joke in every team I have been on. Open with Spore Burst and do your slow "arresting" with Strangler or open with Vines and do the same thing. Having two nice "statue" contains allows one in your pocket in case you pull that second pack (which uncontrollable Fluffy is great at doing).  

 

Carrion Creepers: If I hadn't ever played with them as they are now on Live, I wouldn't harbor as much resentment at you Developers. They aren't the AFK farming power that a lot of posters (who may or may not ever have played the game with them) seem to opine that they are currently.  They and Roots are why I play a Plant Controller. They make me smile when I play solo. In teams, they aren't very useful since I can Root every mob pack and watch the Axe scrappers go to work. For a solo Plant controller, they are a blessing since Flytrap on Live isn't very sturdy (looking at Stoney and dreaming) or invulnerable (looking at you Illusion and dreaming). On Beta, Creepers don't do much damage, it's mostly flop control on mobs but not like Ice Patch or the old Bonfire. I can see skipping Creepers as Beta has them and not really missing them except that on Elite bosses, you NEED every thing that can do damage because your pet sucks. TLDR: I don't like you Developers for ruining the best DPS power I had and leaving me with a Statue Controller....the same complaint that got EM Pulse nerfed into the ground back in Issue 4. City of Statues they called it on the forums in 2005.

 

Flytrap: I don't think that I need to expound much on this one. Sturdy on Beta......Yes.......thank you!! Almost worthless on Beta..........Yes.....whatever. Flytrap is controllable now and that is so much nicer. No more random pack pulls.....etc. Damage is not even noticeable. I watched a boss's health bar as he was held...just Flytrap on him....and it was hard to see it move at all.....at only 1 level higher than me. 

 

End of Testing Thoughts: I wouldn't make a Plant controller as they are on Beta after playing one today. I would go with Earth (love the controls and pet), Illusion ( we all know why), Gravity (throwing a couch at a mob even makes my wife laugh as she watches over my shoulder) or Electrical (never played one but the changes seem interesting). I stood in the middle of a double X4 pack pull today and just looked at the statues and thought "How the hell long is going to take to Strangle each one since I do such low damage?"

 

 

 

 

[Lazarillo]

The "scale" in Seeds means the Duration, yes?  So in exchange for a (potentially) longer Recharge, and a much shorter duration, it keeps the range and target cap it has on live?  Am I getting that correct?

 

(Seems like a worthy compromise to me, if so.)

[csr]

7 hours ago, The Curator said:

 Fly Trap

• AI mode changed from Pet_Base to Pet_Ranged.
• Resistances have been improved
• Pet should use Smash more often if in range (but maybe not, pets dont always listen... not even to us)

 

Smash?  My Fly Trap doesn't list a power by that name.  And unleashed on a Practice Dummy it never used one.  Do you mean Bite by any chance?  (I'm hoping it's supposed to have a new attack.)

[aethereal]

5 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

The "scale" in Seeds means the Duration, yes?

Yes.

[Shin Magmus]

     Just the fact that Seeds hits 16 enemies means it isn't explicitly a death sentence to cast it first now, which will be a huge improvement for a lot of players.  Can lead with Seeds but probably still want Spore Burst as well now, and might still use it first depending on the situation.  Someone will need to test if Fly Trap and Spirit Tree survive better now, but you also need to like play poorly on purpose in order to leave un-CC'd enemies free to attack your pets in order to test this.  Maybe some set spawns like small groups of Cimerorians on the wall would be good to throw the pets at?

[csr]

4 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

The "scale" in Seeds means the Duration, yes?  So in exchange for a (potentially) longer Recharge, and a much shorter duration, it keeps the range and target cap it has on live?  Am I getting that correct?

 

(Seems like a worthy compromise to me, if so.)

 

That's correct.  Scale 8 matches the Scale (and duration) of powers such as Flashfire and Stalagmites.

[Ratch_]

I've been vocal about wanting 16 target cap back and have went and spent some time doing a few runs of mobbing on my plant controller. The consistency of confusing entire mobs and bosses is definitely not what it used to be, mainly because the proc helped stack mag high enough that you can consistently CC the bosses (dominators I imagine won't experience this woe often). Now the power feels way more inline with Flashfire in that it will CC large packs, but bosses will not always be controlled.

I included all plant powers in my build and felt they all had good use, which is also another glaring difference from what I had on live. Spore burst can be nifty as it can help a bit more with some quick notice shut down - and help detoggle enemies. Spirit Tree feels insanely more useful now that you can have it up more often. The taunt is neat. Creepers with containment on vines is competitive enough where I don't feel plant loses it's niche in being fairly great at AoE dmg, but ST is lacking.

With this iteration of changes I have no complaints and am certainly happy with the direction the feedback has gone this round of beta testing. For diehard fans of seeds+creepers being hard carries of the set you definitely lose some of that power fantasy, but enough of it is maintained for me to still enjoy my controller and internally can still get that this feels like plant control. 

I'm unsure if more iterations will take place, but with these most recent changes I'm content and would be completely happy having these changes be the ones that make it to live.

Edited Tuesday at 10:56 PM by Ratch_

[LastHumanSoldier]

Tested.  I was already ok with the performance as of last patch on my dom. This patch sures it up for controllers.

 

 

 

(I am curious on thr thoughts of those who shouted down people giving feedback 10 targets was not a good change are now.)

 

 

 

[Ratch_]

55 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

Someone will need to test if Fly Trap and Spirit Tree survive better now, but you also need to like play poorly on purpose in order to leave un-CC'd enemies free to attack your pets in order to test this.  Maybe some set spawns like small groups of Cimerorians on the wall would be good to throw the pets at?

Tree is pretty tanky, fly trap is definitely a larger risk.

I'll say though that I never had fly trap die in my runs when I'm using my buffs and control powers. More just demonstrating the tree here

Edited Tuesday at 11:18 PM by Ratch_

[Doc Spectre]

I made a lvl50 Plant/Poison Controller today and did some testing. I took everything in Plant except for Roots and I took all debuffs and the single target heal from Poison. I also have Bilespray and the resist armour from Levithan epic set.

 
First on Build 1  I made it a full SO build and I did some Council Radios solo in PI.

I set the difficulty to +2x8 and +3x8 with no bosses since I figured I would get Dark Wolf bosses anyway. I tested opening with Seeds, Spores and Spirit Tree.

Of the three options I found Spirit Tree to be the most effective (it’s really quite sturdy). I felt very safe in clearing the missions and the kill speed wasn’t exceedingly tedious.

 

 I then managed to convince a couple folks to do a KM Yin TF with me. We were my controller, a Dom, a Sentinel and a Defender. I set the first mission to +2 and we set about the TF. I found that the kill speed was a bit tedious at +2 so I dropped it to +1 for the rest of the TF and things preceded at a decent pace.

I found having all the control options available made for a safe run despite not having a tank/ never felt overwhelmed.

 

Later on I made a stab at a fairly tricked out Build 2 with IO sets and Incarnates.

I had a small attempt to drum up some interest in an ITF but got no bites so I decided to try a solo run at +1x8.

 

The run went pretty well and I had just managed to kill Rommy and Requiem in the third mission when the server shut down (for updates I guess).

I actually really like opening with Spirit Tree. I don’t recall it dying in any of the 3 missions, it’s great for alpha drop followed up with spores and seeds.

In fight on top of the robot base between Spirit Tree and the single target immobilise Rommy didn’t get to run all over the place, which I was quite chuffed with.

 

Im now strongly tempted to roll a Plant/Poison when the Update does go live.
 

[Vinceq98]

16 target cap on seeds and a trade off is lower duration but still able to make it perma confusion is crazy. This patch was supposed to be about the new power set but plant has taken reign of the discussion. Honestly I'm not even joking when I say you made plant control too strong . . . My plant/storm controller is tearing through the dangerous mobs with ease and is clearing faster than blasters or scrappers can. All because the mobs are CCed to impunity and now I get the damage back from seeds mass confusing the group. 

[LastHumanSoldier]

Tested my Plant/Kin controller at 54x8.

Its not live speed but its back to murdering groups prety damn fast.
For speed I can open again with Seeds, drop creepers, then fulcrum shift, and spam roots.

Group is dead. 'Gina now is tough enough to watch the entire fights and provide moral support. 
(Clicking GOTO 100 Times and Gina still won't listen, its like she is scared of the mobs.)

Honestly at least on a kin very little power was lost at this point. 
Ship it.

 

[KaizenSoze]

Has anyone tried Sprit Tree and Drain Psych on a dominator? Wondering how much regen is possible.

[Auroxis]

Some more info on Vines (the hold patch):

 

1. It only affects 5 targets per tick

2. It has been changed to use AT modifiers for damage instead of pet modifiers, so controllers do significantly less damage with it

3. Containment on it is at a 33% chance (was previously reserved for powers using pet modifiers, but now it's using AT modifiers)

4. Domination on it is at a 25% chance

5. Overpower on it is at a 5% chance

 

So despite the recharge being brought down to 180s it's not a very reliable CC power, and the damage even over the full 60s duration is fairly negligible. I can certainly see some scenarios where you combine it with Nature or Rad's AoE hold toggles, but at its current state I'd skip it (and other hold patches like it) in the majority of builds.

[Doomrider]

5 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Some more info on Vines (the hold patch):

 

1. It only affects 5 targets per tick

2. It has been changed to use AT modifiers for damage instead of pet modifiers, so controllers do significantly less damage with it

3. Containment on it is at a 33% chance (was previously reserved for powers using pet modifiers, but now it's using AT modifiers)

4. Domination on it is at a 25% chance

5. Overpower on it is at a 5% chance

 

So despite the recharge being brought down to 180s it's not a very reliable CC power, and the damage even over the full 60s duration is fairly negligible. I can certainly see some scenarios where you combine it with Nature or Rad's AoE hold toggles, but at its current state I'd skip it (and other hold patches like it) in the majority of builds.

I think this is what bugs me most about these pseudopet changes. It's a great opportunity to potentially buff controller damage, but instead we're ending up with
repurposed aoe controls with far too many conditionals.

We nearly halve the potential damage output by making them obey AT mods, then give them back *most* of said damage they lost, via 33% containment.
Combine that now with the 5 target per tick and this damage is barely noticeable, AND it's not a reliable CC power. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:07 PM by Doomrider

[LastHumanSoldier]

59 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Some more info on Vines (the hold patch):

 

1. It only affects 5 targets per tick

2. It has been changed to use AT modifiers for damage instead of pet modifiers, so controllers do significantly less damage with it

3. Containment on it is at a 33% chance (was previously reserved for powers using pet modifiers, but now it's using AT modifiers)

4. Domination on it is at a 25% chance

5. Overpower on it is at a 5% chance

 

So despite the recharge being brought down to 180s it's not a very reliable CC power, and the damage even over the full 60s duration is fairly negligible. I can certainly see some scenarios where you combine it with Nature or Rad's AoE hold toggles, but at its current state I'd skip it (and other hold patches like it) in the majority of builds.

Good find.

 

I just tested it on a dom and troller as a main opening control.   If i wasnt range capped i would have died.

 

But i guess the name of the game is layers now. Blaster nukes should get the same "layer" treatment.

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

Some more info on Vines (the hold patch):

 

1. It only affects 5 targets per tick

2. It has been changed to use AT modifiers for damage instead of pet modifiers, so controllers do significantly less damage with it

3. Containment on it is at a 33% chance (was previously reserved for powers using pet modifiers, but now it's using AT modifiers)

4. Domination on it is at a 25% chance

5. Overpower on it is at a 5% chance

 

So despite the recharge being brought down to 180s it's not a very reliable CC power, and the damage even over the full 60s duration is fairly negligible. I can certainly see some scenarios where you combine it with Nature or Rad's AoE hold toggles, but at its current state I'd skip it (and other hold patches like it) in the majority of builds.

Sounds like hot garbage, lol.

[Onlyasandwich]

I'm happy with the latest change to Seeds. It now serves properly as a Controller "most spawns" opener. I had mine procced for damage too, and this isn't so useful any more. I consider it a fair enough balance.

 

Spirit Tree is great! I'm loving it so far. It gives me another opener or "oh crap" power to bridge the gap when things get messy.

 

Spores is still great, as it was on the previous beta patch. 

 

I hadn't given Vines much of a shake on the previous patch, but put in some more work with it this time around. Previously I would use it as a "stuff is going south > stop the mobs now" emergency button, but it doesn't really work well for this any longer. It's a bit slow acting. Instead, it's more of a conditional opener if Seeds is on cooldown, or planned measure if I know multiple mobs are risking aggro and I want to lock one down at the start. Overall this is okay. I can't say that I used it a ton before the change, but I do miss the emergency button.

 

My previous comment on the last patch stands for Creepers. They are sort of okay, but weirdly the most skippable power in the set now. It's very sad to see what was once a centerpiece power of the set (alongside Seeds) to a "maybe skip." I would love to see them summoning more entities as they do on live, even if the powers these entities use are changed to mitigate the impact of procs within them.

 

Fly Trap is good! I already took it on live anyhow, and now it actually stands a chance of living without heavy support. ST damage is low as some have noted, but it has some okay AOE, and provides a decent distraction as well. 

[mistagoat]

Did some testing at +1x8 council on my 50 plant/storm troller, it doesn't have any plant powers proc'd out (beyond full sets). 

• Seeds feels good now.
• Flytrap feels better than on live, though it's still not a very good pet.
• I like the Spirit Tree now, I'll get much more use out of it now compared to live.
• I don't have Spores in my build so I still need to test that.
• Creepers is a bit underwhelming, you just don't get the amount of tentacles as on live. Regardless of the damage values it feels diminished. 
• I don't like Vines at all and greatly prefer the live version. It's not reliable CC anymore. You can toss it onto the pile of other CC you have going but it feels inconsequential now. I want my AOE hold to instantly shut down a spawn when things go south and this aint that.

Overall, the set feels okay, vastly improved over the first build (didn't get around to testing second build). I definitely kill stuff faster on live but not by a large margin. I still want to test how it plays at lowers levels since that is where I spend the vast majority of my playtime. 

 

[Ratch_]

Creepers obviously isn't what  it used to be but I think it's still worth taking and mobs groups quite well.

 

[Blackfeather]

Could Spore Burst be changed to not cause aggro, similar to Mass Hypnosis?

Edited Wednesday at 08:37 PM by Blackfeather

[Uun]

• Current iteration of Seeds feels OK. Recharges fast enough that it can be reapplied if it wears off or get adds. 
• Pulled the %dmg procs from Carrion Creepers and 5-slotted Bombardment (sans proc). Not really noticing a difference in damage from the prior beta builds (which had 3 %dmg procs) and CC is now perma with the additional recharge.
• Spore Burst is working as described, but it doesn't really have enough duration with just 1 acc/mez HO. Doesn't play well with Carrion Creepers.
• Spirit Tree is holding aggro better. Slotting it for healing isn't worthwhile as the +regen buff isn't strong enough. Will try slotting for threat. 
• Vines is useful for deploying around corners and other locations where you can't get line of sight with Seeds. Would like to see its chance for Domination increased to 50%.
• Don't have Fly Trap in this build so haven't tested the changes yet. Looking at the stats, it lists resistance to sonic, radiation and electrical damage in addition to energy resistance. Do those stack? Not sure whether to drop Spore Burst or Spirit Tree in favor of Fly Trap.

[arcane]

Basically Plant Control got the Sorcery treatment at this point. In other words, the backlash to nerfing part of a set was so intense that the devs felt they had to give the set an overall net buff.

[WindDemon21]

On 6/3/2025 at 10:19 AM, The Curator said:

Fly Trap

• AI mode changed from Pet_Base to Pet_Ranged.
• Resistances have been improved
• Pet should use Smash more often if in range (but maybe not, pets dont always listen... not even to us)

Again, just ditch the bite power for the dominator version of impale (maybe even include thorn barrage too but not just thorn barrage). Then it'll be only ranged and actually use it's full attack kit when ranged.