Letting go of Def and giving in to the concept

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Kick (so much better than Boxing!)

Does it matter? I never used them. I mean, you could try and kick something ten times for that proc to fire, but candidly, I'm not using either of those lame attacks in my rotation. Mind you, I have tried them after they made the attacks with some synergy, but I still found them lackluster, even with some slotting. 

[Clave Dark 5]

Kick has a chance for knockdown.  I do often keep that trash power available somewhere on my tray so in case I get slowed and nothing is recharging, anything to spit in their face before they take me down.

[UltraAlt]

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

Those of you who can resit making every character Soft cap on Def, not max Recharge, etc.  How is it?

 

It is fine. I love making characters with wildly different character conceptions. 

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

Is it still fun, can you still rock with a team ready to do "hard" content and still walk out the other side giving a thumbs up?

 

Challenging content, yes.

But what is "hard" to one player may very well mean L337 to another.

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

Heck it doesn't even have to be hard content to be honest, just in general, how is it?

 

It is fine.

I don't cookie-cutter, nor do I mini-max.

I have fun playing to the character's conception.

 

Regardless of the level of "it" ... we are all playing a role-playing game. 

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

Heck I find myself where I can't even remember the last time I made a character that DIDN'T have me running to the test sever just to see how it plays out instead of jumping on live and simply going, "lets see what we come up with in the end".

 

I find that kind of sad actually.

When you read a book do you just skip to the last chapter?

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

I guess what I am trying to say without all the rambling is that it feels like lately I am restricting my own fun

 

Sounds like it to me.

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

but I am STILL having fun...just...I don't know

 

Well, good. You should be playing to have fun. It is a game. That is really the point of it.

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

feels like it's becoming harder and hard to come up with a new character and stick with it and not fall into the trap of a character that can stand toe to toe, but not what I originally wanted.

 

Stick to your character conception.

Sure, sometime as you are leveling you are going to see a weakness and want to do what you can to compensate. A little of that is fine too much of that ... and yes ... there goes your character conception out the window.

Sometimes I've found that one way to stop from losing the character conception is to decide ... this is the level this character should be ... their powers only really should be this powerful or they really should only be fighting villains up to his point ... or whatever.

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

That said I don't wanna lean too far into the original idea and spend 95% of my time on the floor.

 

Then change your tactics to fit the character conception (archetype and power sets).

Heck, change the notoriety to what is challenging but not "too much" for your character. "No harm. No foul" for doing that.

 

On 6/29/2025 at 6:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

Does anyone else run into this kind of stuff or do I just need to take a small break and come back???

 

You have to do you.

I would say stop stressing about it and play something that is fun.

Make it about having fun and not about winning, and you'll probably be much happier.

 

Edited Monday at 08:08 PM by UltraAlt

[Skyhawke]

All of my characters start as a concept and have an origin story in their bio as well as all costume slots used for alt outfits before doing anything. Concept is king for me. In Mids, I'll put together as good a build as I can, but it stays within the concept of the character. 

[Uncle Shags]

It sounds like you're torn between concept builder and min/maxer.

 

You say you start off with a character idea, but then it get a morphs into a min/maxed Frankenstein chasing stats.  For some people that's fine and the way they like it.

 

But if you're doubting that then maybe try to put the mids away for a bit. Just lean into your original idea with less focus on chasing numbers.  Guaranteed it will play just fine, especially on a team. Shit, it might play better! 

 

Or, if you have the cash you can have multiple builds. Have one that's tweaked out min/maxed, and another that's just fun, with all the fun powers you want.

 

 

[ZemX]

22 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

It sounds like you're torn between concept builder and min/maxer.

 

I think you ended your post on the right answer: This is a choice nobody has to make.  Do both builds on the same character.  Play both.  See which one pleases you more.

Edited Monday at 12:46 PM by ZemX

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, DrBasics said:

I experience both sides of the coin. Sometimes I just say screw it and take weird power picks for the sake of "Rule of Cool" and just being fun. But there are times when it is extremely obvious that everyone on the team is doing that and the entire team is very unoptimized. Just an example, when it took 30+ minutes to run just Apex TF, then another 30+ minutes to run Tin Mage. It's nothing game breaking, but it is enough for me to get back into squeezing optimization and min/max a build like crazy, at least for a week or two.

I can't articulate how much I relate to this. 

Some teams, particularly the speedy Aeons, I feel like I'm the one that hasn't optimized. And really, I haven't truly optimized. I've just tried to eke out enough defense and resistance to survive, with what I feel is a balance between chaos (dps) and order(survivability) 


And some teams, I wonder if they even have anything slotted. 

[lyra]

Even the strongest hero with the best values is always pushed around by an NPC civilian.

 

[tidge]

On 6/29/2025 at 10:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

Those of you who can resit making every character Soft cap on Def, not max Recharge, etc.  How is it? Is it still fun, can you still rock with a team ready to do "hard" content and still walk out the other side giving a thumbs up? 

 

For solo, I rarely turn up the relative levels until I get closer to 50... I find it more rewarding to fight larger spawn sizes. So "hard content" is only a thing on teams/pugs for me. Teams cover each other.

 

I'm perfectly happy running with only an extra +6% (All) Def from Global IOs until I can do better... but I don't worry too much, since getting defeated has no real impact. If solo, its just some down time for me, if on a team, then unless I'm the only character filling a very particular role (only tanker on a MLTF for example) my defeat isn't holding the team back.

 

I've gotten to the point where I'm now often leveraging more oddball powers into builds (including Tankers!) than chasing more resistance/defense; as I find those builds to be slightly more fun to play.

 

The one build choice I typically go with is to try to have a Kismet +ToHit piece in play, but specifically for when I'm on a team facing +4 enemies... all my characters have something to target against enemies and I'd rather not miss.

 

 

[baster]

On 6/29/2025 at 4:58 AM, hoodedKitsune said:

I find myself lately in this runt where every time I start a new character with the ideas of all the power I wanna try and take, about into my 30s I find myself working on soft capping Def and end up no where near what I started off wanting to do.  Don't get me wrong, the characters a strong and can stand the test of time but not what I started off wanting to do and then I end up getting bored with said character.  I didn't used to always been like this, but at some point and time I find myself always trying to soft cap Def, and not just Def! If I am playing a Dom I am almost always pulled to making it a Perma Dom and whatever idea I started out with is long lost.

 

Those of you who can resit making every character Soft cap on Def, not max Recharge, etc.  How is it? Is it still fun, can you still rock with a team ready to do "hard" content and still walk out the other side giving a thumbs up? Heck it doesn't even have to be hard content to be honest, just in general, how is it? Heck I find myself where I can't even remember the last time I made a character that DIDN'T have me running to the test sever just to see how it plays out instead of jumping on live and simply going, "lets see what we come up with in the end".  I can't be 100% mad at it because the amount of ideas I had for a character, played it on test and simply went "omg....I am so glad I did NOT try that in live" is crazy.  

 

I guess what I am trying to say without all the rambling is that it feels like lately I am restricting my own fun, but I am STILL having fun...just...I don't know 😫 feels like it's becoming harder and hard to come up with a new character and stick with it and not fall into the trap of a character that can stand toe to toe, but not what I originally wanted.  That said I don't wanna lean too far into the original idea and spend 95% of my time on the floor. Does anyone else run into this kind of stuff or do I just need to take a small break and come back???

Sounds like you are getting old. 

I noticed thatvyears ago as i started to decline, decisions that ware snapy, instant and obvious now started taking time, changing my mind, not being sure, flip flopping etc.. so you tend to fall back on the old trusted and true instead of venture in to the unknown.

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

Does it matter? I never used them. I mean, you could try and kick something ten times for that proc to fire, but candidly, I'm not using either of those lame attacks in my rotation. Mind you, I have tried them after they made the attacks with some synergy, but I still found them lackluster, even with some slotting. 

 

I usually level organically, and an attack from the Fighting Pool really does help in levels 4 or 6 to 10 or 12 (throw an accuracy in it).  I choose Kick mostly because I like the looks of it.  There are so many punching animations that are boring, and the kick animation actually seems to have your leg elongate slightly.  The chance for knockdown is not insignificant while this is in the rotation.  And even at higher levels (when I sometimes put the knockback proc +recharge in it) there is a certain satisfaction to killing an AV with a kick.

[Forager]

7 hours ago, Ukase said:

Does it matter? I never used them. I mean, you could try and kick something ten times for that proc to fire, but candidly, I'm not using either of those lame attacks in my rotation.

 

Well in the spirit of the thread, they can fit a concept very well AND you have to take one to get into the Fighting pool anyway.

 

You don't use it as part of any rotation. You use it when an enemy has a sliver of health left and you want to save an attack and look like a badass.

 

On blasters it has allowed me to use a melee set that I wouldn't otherwise have AND skip my T1, which I would only use for those aforementioned slivers anyway.

[Zect]

You don't need to softcap for any content played with a team:

1. The game has to be balanced so that it can be played without tankers or any armored AT's, so developers are limited in how much damage mobs can do.
2. Then this damage is split up to 8 ways even before it gets to you
3. Then it gets nerfed by the gigantic amount of buffs, debuffs, controls etc raining from the sky, all of which are vastly more powerful than your puny IO sets. Maneuvers from a random corr is 5%, think how many slots you spend to get 5% def to all.

The defense softcap (and resistance hardcap) are more relevant for soloing difficult enemy groups at high difficulties, under arbitrary constraints such as no temps no insps just to say you can do it. However, speaking as someone who actually does this, there is little practical use in it. From a pure minmaxing perspective, it's more optimal to cut defense and prioritize dps; any mitigation beyond what you need to survive is wasted stats. Most toons I see have too much def and res for the threat environment they play in.

 

I believe that building for too much def and res carries the danger of making one stupider: it insulates the player from negative results of their choices and actions. It would be like chopping up food in the kitchen while wearing oven mitts to protect from any possibility of getting a cut: people should just grow up, git gud and learn to handle a knife properly, which is not only more efficient but safer for yourself and others in the long term. When I encounter someone deep in the Dunning-Kruger valley who thinks they are an expert despite their builds and gameplay being awful, it's often a tanker main, because even though good tanking is all about knowledge and situational awareness (knowing what to engage, where to engage and when to engage it), tankers have the greatest tendency to focus excessively and exclusively on personal mitigation.

 

This is a non-softcap example, but it is a good illustration of how prioritizing any kind of mitigation too heavily can become a knowledge debuff. Some time ago I was giving build advice to some rad armor tanker and I recommended removing their -KB IO. They countered that KB protection is important and a tanker should not be flopping around on their backs. The problem with this is that rad armor, and most armor sets for that matter, come with built-in KB resistance (not protection as given by IO's such as botz, resistance) which reduces KB magnitude. It is nearly impossible to be knocked back at all, even if you are hit by kb of magnitude higher than you have protection against. Because they assumed they needed KB protection, they were simply never exposed to evidence that proves otherwise.

 

---

 

Anyway, back to your concern, OP: the best solution is actually to minmax harder. Restrict yourself only to top-ranking, meta powerset combos and optimized builds. After a couple dozen alts, you'll be thoroughly bored and ready to try something different. 

Edited Monday at 05:28 PM by Zect

[Seed22]

10 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Remember this min/maxxing mindset rules the forums

Whats funny is most of the forums builds are poorly optimized and not even remotely minmaxed.

 

They all focus entirely too much on personal survival without understanding in a team or even solo you’re holding yourself back by pursuing 45 def on that blaster instead of 20-30 at most. 
 

Its why you’ll never see a 45 def person in any meta four star team. 
 

I still can understand the OP’s idea though and lamentations. It’s why I don’t think I personally will be making any more 50s and will be taking a content sabbatical until maybe the next HM is released, and even then probably still for awhile after. 
 

Minmaxing in this game took any discovery out of it as it’s completely solved. There are objective best ways to build, and minmaxers know what they are in current meta. 
 

Nothing really has changed in the last 5 years to shake this up which is totally fine, but rough on a minmax mindset

Edited Monday at 06:59 PM by Seed22

[hoodedKitsune]

33 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Whats funny is most of the forums builds are poorly optimized and not even remotely minmaxed.

 

They all focus entirely too much on personal survival without understanding in a team or even solo you’re holding yourself back by pursuing 45 def on that blaster instead of 20-30 at most. 
 

Its why you’ll never see a 45 def person in any meta four star team. 
 

I still can understand the OP’s idea though and lamentations. It’s why I don’t think I personally will be making any more 50s and will be taking a content sabbatical until maybe the next HM is released, and even then probably still for awhile after. 
 

Minmaxing in this game took any discovery out of it as it’s completely solved. There are objective best ways to build, and minmaxers know what they are in current meta. 
 

Nothing really has changed in the last 5 years to shake this up which is totally fine, but rough on a minmax mindset

 

What are the 3 and 4 star teams like? I have tried 1 and 2 and had fun but never tried anything past that.  Heck I haven't even tried the labyrinth yet because I have been spending the past months doing....well THIS!  

 

So far I have taken the advice in this thread to heart and am working on a Pyro/Time controller with a stage magician theme and loving it so far.  I ONLY jumped to the test server to see if I could pick up all the powers I wanted for fun, not to see how "good it stacked up" at 50 and beyond.  If anything it's....a strange feeling picking up powers only because I wanted to them not that I feel I need them. If anything I found myself struggling to pick powers after I got everything I wanted just to get to level 50.  I figured I could work that out on live as it happens.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

 Most toons I see have too much def and res for the threat environment they play in.

 

I believe that building for too much def and res carries the danger of making one stupider: it insulates the player from negative results of their choices and actions. 

I don't disagree with your take here. 

From my seat however, because I probably have slower reflexes than some of you who have been gaming on much more challenging games than I have, I need all the protection I can get from bad decisions and sometimes inaction, or slow action. And if I'm being really honest, I love it when there's a team wipe, and I'm still standing. Now, I could tell myself if I'd slotted for more dps and less survivability, I might have been able to clobber the npcs before they trashed my team. But I just don't think that's the case. I've seen what a single damage IO does. Not much! I just don't think there's a lot of difference between optimal and average. Maybe I'm wrong. 

[Erratic1]

I shouldn't...and I know I shouldn't....

 

The condescension and, "Concept is king, min-maxing is bad" bit that's been going on is tiresomely uninformed. Yeesh...where to start?

 

The Human Torch never, ever, not once gets mowed down by bullets. To the extent you see them fired at him in comics the bullets melt then flash away presumably into vapor. Somehow it is okay for however man Superman clones to be running around with Super Strength and Invulnerability but a Blaster builds to make Council bullets as effective against them as they are against the Human Torch and its min-maxing*. Concept is king? Maybe the blaster is supposed to be using his powers conceptually to avoid ranged attacks.

 

*Memetic drift and all, but the term people really are looking for, which later generations of gamers lost apparently, is "twink" or power gamer. 'Min-max' is merely a method of squeezing out performance along a desired course, be that to maximum power gaming or fitting a concept within limited resources (slots and powers).

 

But hey, dont let me dissuade you from what you were discussing.

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, hoodedKitsune said:

 

What are the 3 and 4 star teams like? I have tried 1 and 2 and had fun but never tried anything past that.  Heck I haven't even tried the labyrinth yet because I have been spending the past months doing....well THIS!  

 

So far I have taken the advice in this thread to heart and am working on a Pyro/Time controller with a stage magician theme and loving it so far.  I ONLY jumped to the test server to see if I could pick up all the powers I wanted for fun, not to see how "good it stacked up" at 50 and beyond.  If anything it's....a strange feeling picking up powers only because I wanted to them not that I feel I need them. If anything I found myself struggling to pick powers after I got everything I wanted just to get to level 50.  I figured I could work that out on live as it happens.

4 star isnt any different mechanically from 1-2, just bigger stats is all. Personally I find it artificially difficult since even with those inflated stats 100% of the content can be ignored via barrier cycling. 

 

Some 4 stars also have secret fights like the vanguard fight in Aeon and Omega Kong in LGTF. Neither are particularly challenging, but you will have to do a run to learn them first. 

[Intermipants]

I used to do the same thing where I’d butcher the original concept to shoehorn extra defense or recharge or whatever. However, I stopped doing it once I found that the characters I play the most are the ones that stick to the concept. 
 

I also really love the whip powers in the demon mastermind set and I made a whip kinetics petless mastermind that was fairly useless but looked fantastic and was fun to play and that definitely broke my min max addiction.  

[WumpusRat]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

The condescension and, "Concept is king, min-maxing is bad" bit that's been going on is tiresomely uninformed. Yeesh...where to start?

 

The Human Torch never, ever, not once gets mowed down by bullets. To the extent you see them fired at him in comics the bullets melt then flash away presumably into vapor. Somehow it is okay for however man Superman clones to be running around with Super Strength and Invulnerability but a Blaster builds to make Council bullets as effective against them as they are against the Human Torch and its min-maxing*. Concept is king? Maybe the blaster is supposed to be using his powers conceptually to avoid ranged attacks.

 

...and that would be part of the concept, would it not? Nothing says a blaster's concept CAN'T be something like that, if that's your idea for the character.

It's not "condescension", it's simply a preference. I don't think minmaxing is "bad", it's just not my preferred way to play. I don't chase the meta, I just build what I want to build for the concept I have. 

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

...and that would be part of the concept, would it not? Nothing says a blaster's concept CAN'T be something like that, if that's your idea for the character.

 

That was my point, because the thread has ignored that can be the motivation and broadly labelling chasing Def as a bad thing.

 

So yes, it is condescension.

[WumpusRat]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

That was my point, because the thread has ignored that can be the motivation and broadly labelling chasing Def as a bad thing.

 

So yes, it is condescension.

Eh, I don't see it that way. It's a preference in the way to play. Chasing def DOES mean you have to build in certain ways, take specific powers/enh sets/etc just to achieve that goal. Whereas going by concept means you can pick different things, though if you're adhering strictly to a concept it has the same limitations on what you can pick.

 

Its no more condescending than saying "Which do you prefer, strawberry or chocolate ice cream?" and having people weigh in on the pros and cons of each. 

Then you'll have someone go "but what about neopolitan?!" 

Nothing says you can't like both, or mix them. 🙂

[FupDup]

12 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

That was my point, because the thread has ignored that can be the motivation and broadly labelling chasing Def as a bad thing.

 

So yes, it is condescension.

I think a part of the issue is that different ATs are suited towards different things, and while the build system lets you go against the grain it's sometimes an uphill battle. Like for that Human Torch example, Blasters mostly just have one epic pool armor toggle and their manip sustain power for durability. It would probably be easier to just make a Sentinel for a similar overall feel of "durable ranged shooty guy" if you're willing to give up some damage in the exchange (building a Blaster for pure defense is giving up damage too).

Of course, the game's overall difficulty is low enough (in a good way, IMO) that either the Sent or softcapped Blaster are still going to handle themselves just fine. 

[Ukase]

It's not lost on me that while playing this fire/ma blaster, using CT to close in for an Eagle's claw because burst of speed is recharging..that I should probably be playing a scrapper, or a brute. Then the defense/resist numbers the blaster would have to aim for would practically be inherent. Or, as mentioned above, a Sentinel. 

 

[MoonSheep]

22 hours ago, Uncle Shags said:

It sounds like you're torn between concept builder and min/maxer.

 

You say you start off with a character idea, but then it get a morphs into a min/maxed Frankenstein chasing stats.  For some people that's fine and the way they like it.

 

But if you're doubting that then maybe try to put the mids away for a bit. Just lean into your original idea with less focus on chasing numbers.  Guaranteed it will play just fine, especially on a team. Shit, it might play better! 

 

Or, if you have the cash you can have multiple builds. Have one that's tweaked out min/maxed, and another that's just fun, with all the fun powers you want.

 

 

 

a note: building for defense is not a min/max strategy in HC

 

with insps and other buffs readily available there’s no reason to build for defense other than for roleplay, concept characters or self imposed restrictions

 

i agree with your overarching message: just play it and have fun