Is It Time to Resurrect Statesman?

[The Witchfire]

Nobody (except Uncle Ben) ever dies permanently in comics after all.

 

I never liked the way the character was killed off anyway.  The actual story wasn't bad, but it felt like it had alot more to do with the conflict between the devs at Paragon, and that a good flagship character was killed off over who occasionally played him in-game.  The reaction to the fake Statesman in that fighting game years back shows the fan base was able to separate the character from the dev.

[Rudra]

He's not the only dev character that was killed. I see no reason to bring him back unless the Live dev plan for Tyrant to become the new Statesman is put in play. (Edit: Besides, I rather enjoy the tip mission where you pose as Statesman and the NPCs are all "WAIT! You're ALIVE?!".)

 

Edited yesterday at 12:49 AM by Rudra

[MTeague]

To what purpose?  Just to have him standing around? Good, bad, or indifferent, if we see someone take up the mantle of Stateman again, I'm pretty sure it will be the other Marcus Cole. And sadly, I don't mean the Babylon 5 Ranger. I mean Tyrant.

[FupDup]

I kinda agree that the method of killing was pretty lame (got killed by a normie-power Postal Dude looking nobody), but the deed has been done and there's been enough story around it that a sudden reversal would feel weird. I'd rather go with the original live dev plain for Tyrant's redemption arc because it would slip in more organically/smoothly. 

[Darmian]

No, Statesman is dead.  As they say in Doctor Who, that's a fixed point in time.  As to HOW he died?  I always felt there was more to that story than we were given in Who Will Die? Perhaps someday we'll see it in something akin to "Along Came A Spider". 

 

I think the biggest issue the Live Devs left behind by killing off Statesman was not actually his death but his removal from almost ALL game material before his death.  We never interact with him at all prior to that.  Hell, if it wasn't for the HC Devs we wouldn't even have the Statesman led Freedom Phalanx version of the Lord Recluse Strike Force in Ouro. So if Statesman were to "return" I'd personally prefer cameos or what have you in the "earlier" parts of the game timeline so that when Who Will Die? drops for you, you at least have something to link it to.

 

And the final thing?  Making Tyrant a new Statesman was and remains one of the stupidest things I've read about City of Heroes.  Anyone who has played through Praetoria in depth can tell you that the man just wouldn't do that.  And there's no incentive for him to ever do it.

[Aracknight]

If there is a solid story, and a solid reason to do so, absolutely.  Insurmountable odds against implacable foes, and something, no, someone has to inspire the turning of the tide?  I think there would be some cheers.

 

If it's "Just because," it cheapens the tale.

 

 

[Darmian]

There's another knot to the problem though.  And I'm not veering away from my opinion that he shouldn't be brought back as detailed above, just working through an angle.  Statesman is dead, but Statesman didn't die.  Marcus Cole, an ordinary man, died.  In Who Will Die? his powers are stripped from him and he dies as a normal human. So, do you bring back that man somehow? Hey folks, here's your symbol of hope, no he can't help with anything.  Or do you break the entire canon timeline?  Something HC, as far as I can see, is not going to do.  COH is not having a Crisis on Infinite Earths moment ever. 

Edited yesterday at 02:12 AM by Darmian

[El D]

32 minutes ago, Darmian said:

And the final thing?  Making Tyrant a new Statesman was and remains one of the stupidest things I've read about City of Heroes.  Anyone who has played through Praetoria in depth can tell you that the man just wouldn't do that.  And there's no incentive for him to ever do it.

 

Facts. Not only would Emperor Cole not demean himself by doing that, Lord Recluse would absolutely not stand for it. Frankly, the fact that he hasn't managed to hunt down Darrin Wade for some extensive level of heinous torture by this point also feels iffy. Though that would make for a fun 'reunion gift' from Red Widow for their rekindled relationship...

 

More on-topic to States himself, I'd rather have some fun Ouro arcs that explore Statesman's life prior to 2004. Similar to how the Top Cow comic arcs were put in as unique flashbacks. Whether these were presented as personal stories playing as Statesman, other Signature NPCs, or just the player temporally taking the place of a generic hero of the time, it's be fun to see the original Brass Monday (and possibly learn more about Nemesis), have more lore drops for the Nictus fighting against Requiem in WWII, and get more first-hand info about the whole arrangements (and secrets) of the First Rikti War.

Edited yesterday at 02:26 AM by El D

[Techwright]

54 minutes ago, El D said:

 

Facts. Not only would Emperor Cole not demean himself by doing that, Lord Recluse would absolutely not stand for it. Frankly, the fact that he hasn't managed to hunt down Darrin Wade for some extensive level of heinous torture by this point also feels iffy. Though that would make for a fun 'reunion gift' from Red Widow for their rekindled relationship...

 

More on-topic to States himself, I'd rather have some fun Ouro arcs that explore Statesman's life prior to 2004. Similar to how the Top Cow comic arcs were put in as unique flashbacks. Whether these were presented as personal stories playing as Statesman, other Signature NPCs, or just the player temporally taking the place of a generic hero of the time, it's be fun to see the original Brass Monday (and possibly learn more about Nemesis), have more lore drops for the Nictus fighting against Requiem in WWII, and get more first-hand info about the whole arrangements (and secrets) of the First Rikti War.

 

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

No, Statesman is dead.  As they say in Doctor Who, that's a fixed point in time.  As to HOW he died?  I always felt there was more to that story than we were given in Who Will Die? Perhaps someday we'll see it in something akin to "Along Came A Spider". 

 

And the final thing?  Making Tyrant a new Statesman was and remains one of the stupidest things I've read about City of Heroes.  Anyone who has played through Praetoria in depth can tell you that the man just wouldn't do that.  And there's no incentive for him to ever do it.

 

 

I really think it more important to bring the Hunt for Darrin Wade to the forefront of story crafting, rather than a return of Marcus Cole/Statesman.  That has got to be one of the biggest hanging threads from the original game.  Marcus Cole might have been a bit of a jerk at times, but I still feel having the opportunity of destroying his killer (er, bringing to justice, stripping his powers) is a tough fight every one of my heroes would willingly take up.  

 

There's also got to be some consideration for the sentient Well.  It allowed the process to happen because it lusts for power-play displays, and Darrin Wade made a big one.  I'm not sure it would grant Marcus Cole the power back even if Cole were brought back, unless a greater power move was made.  Far more likely, story-wise, to somehow bring Marcus Cole back, and knowing the dangers of sudden Well power, him opting to take the slow Incarnate route back to power.  I kind of like that thought.  It has story potential.

 

I agree with @El D regarding having past Statesman material.  I've long wanted a late 1920s/early 1930s setting and story arc probably before or leading to the July 4, 1932 assembling of the first generation of the Freedom Phalanx.   But I'd be happy with anything in the 1930s and 1940s.  Statesman would have his older costumes, and Dark Watcher's backstory might be expanded as well.

 

Regarding the whole Tyrant as Statesman II thing:  I'm not opposed to it, but there'll have to be some great writing to explain his change of heart.  I'd be more inclined to accept a "resurrection" where Tyrant's soul is swapped with that of Statesman's, essentially bringing back the hero in a living copy, but yeah, great writing would be needed for that, too (maybe using CoT body-swap magic?)

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

I really think it more important to bring the Hunt for Darrin Wade to the forefront of story crafting, rather than a return of Marcus Cole/Statesman.  That has got to be one of the biggest hanging threads from the original game.  Marcus Cole might have been a bit of a jerk at times, but I still feel having the opportunity of destroying his killer (er, bringing to justice, stripping his powers) is a tough fight every one of my heroes would willingly take up.  

Except it isn't a hanging thread. Darrin Wade is captured at the end of the series. You, the player, capture him. That SSA arc culminates with a visual of the captured Darrin Wade facing Lady Grey who makes clear in no uncertain terms the lengths she is willing to go to pry everything Wade has out of him. She and Vanguard get him because of you, the player. When you defeat him in his empowered semi-Rularuu Rula-Wade form.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:23 AM by Rudra
Edited to correct Darrin Wade's final form name.

[Techwright]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Except it isn't a hanging thread. Darrin Wade is captured at the end of the series. You, the player, capture him. That SSA arc culminates with a visual of the captured Darrin Wade facing Lady Grey who makes clear in no uncertain terms the lengths she is willing to go to pry everything Wade has out of him. She and Vanguard get him because of you, the player. When you defeat him in his empowered semi-Rularuu form.

Hmm...thank you for the correction.  I have no memory of that, sadly, and it was long time ago I played the storyline, so clearly I need to repeat it.    I appreciate the correction.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, El D said:

Facts. Not only would Emperor Cole not demean himself by doing that, Lord Recluse would absolutely not stand for it. Frankly, the fact that he hasn't managed to hunt down Darrin Wade for some extensive level of heinous torture by this point also feels iffy. Though that would make for a fun 'reunion gift' from Red Widow for their rekindled relationship...

Right, I forgot to comment on this. Sorry. Anyway, at least part of the reason why Lord Recluse and the patrons help you in the fight against Darrin Wade as he progresses his plan to become Rula-Wade and why they go with you (if you let them) to help fight Rula-Wade is because Lord Recluse very much wants to tear down Darrin Wade for having killed Statesman. (It's not the only reason, but it is a strong reason.) To the point that you can let Lord Recluse and the patrons handle a lot of the fighting with Rula-Wade. No effort to protect themselves from his power, just 'there he is! ATTACK!!!' feeling dedication. So no, there won't be a reunion gift from Red Widow of Darrin Wade to Lord Recluse. He pretty much already got his mad on taken care of. As long as Darrin Wade rots in Vanguard's care, Lord Recluse is probably content with letting him live having helped topple him at the height of his power. (Which as far as Recluse is concerned, shows he is superior to Statesman, and Darrin Wade's victory over Statesman was a lucky fluke rather than Wade having accomplished something Recluse had not in all the time he and Statesman knew each other.)

 

Edited yesterday at 06:10 AM by Rudra
Edited to correct "To" to "No".

[Greycat]

Short answer, no. 

Long answer, still no. 

 

Honestly, I rather like the "It's time for you to rest, you don't have to carry all this any more, others are here" pass-the-torch sentiment. I'd hate to see that taken away. 

[mechahamham]

Despite any affection he may or may not have had for other women, *cough* Dominatrix *cough*, Paragon Marcus Cole watched his wife of many decades die and was on hand when his daughter died.

 

The central, most important part of the WWD arc featuring him was the cutscene in which Monica told him that he'd done enough. He didn't have to go on any more if he didn't want to.

 

That's a 'Yep, Game Over!' moment for sure. That's the kind of end that even if you have a REALLY GOOD reason for resurrecting someone, you don't do it out of decency. Why torture a person, bringing them back when you *didn't* bring their spouse back?

[Shin Magmus]

No.

[Vanden]

10 hours ago, Darmian said:

And the final thing?  Making Tyrant a new Statesman was and remains one of the stupidest things I've read about City of Heroes.  Anyone who has played through Praetoria in depth can tell you that the man just wouldn't do that.  And there's no incentive for him to ever do it.

 

He would absolutely do it. Check out his dialogue when he's defeated in the Magisterium trial:

 

Quote

You've ruined everything! You have no comprehension of what you've unleashed on this world... this multiverse!

I had the power to save us all... to fight off the storm on the horizon...

We are undone...

 

He doesn't lament for the loss of his power or his empire, but for how his defeat leaves Earth weaker against the Coming Storm. If posing as Statesman would help rally Earth's defenses against the Battalion, as was the plan for that storyline, he would do it.

[Darmian]

10 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

He would absolutely do it. Check out his dialogue when he's defeated in the Magisterium trial:

 

 

He doesn't lament for the loss of his power or his empire, but for how his defeat leaves Earth weaker against the Coming Storm. If posing as Statesman would help rally Earth's defenses against the Battalion, as was the plan for that storyline, he would do it.

I'm going to disagree.  Fight off the storm on the horizon?  Absolutely.  But on his terms.  With Emperor Cole it's always on his terms.  Stand with Vanguard and the Primals against the Coming Storm?  I could see him doing that, but taking on Statesman's mantle to do it?  That's a big no IMO. 

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

I'm going to disagree.  Fight off the storm on the horizon?  Absolutely.  But on his terms.  With Emperor Cole it's always on his terms.  Stand with Vanguard and the Primals against the Coming Storm?  I could see him doing that, but taking on Statesman's mantle to do it?  That's a big no IMO. 

Why not?  Are we approaching this from an outsider's viewpoint, that Praetorian Cole can be redeemed, and would we (both the players and characters) want to try?  or can the story play out from Cole's internal viewpoint: that his view (possibly) hasn't changed, he just needs to play a longer game to get what he wants, and if that means masquerading as Statesman and kissing up to the Prime Earth Phalanx, then so be it.  He's practically immortal, so he can insidiously shape things over time by influencing the up-and-coming generations.

[The Witchfire]

Wow, I got quite a conversation started, lol.  🙂

 

Instead of spamming a bunch of individual replies, let me try to respond to the main points brought up.

 

First, as far as what to do with the returning Statesman; he can do more than stand around.  It's up to the devs to find ways to use him, and we can offer constructive ideas there *IF* he were brought back.

 

Regarding changing existing content, there's not much need.  All the game's content follows a timeline with characters caught up and in the present when they reach end-game.  All MMOs work that way.  RPers have learned to work around it also with duplicate missions being said to be something else or OOC.  If nothing else, there's Ouroboros for missions. 🙂

 

 

Tyrant's redemption...  Well, that's another story.  *IF* it ever happens (it's been talk for ages now), it presents problems or at least story arcs of it's own...  Here's what I mean:

 

I see one of three paths happening with such a redemption arc...

 

First is it's 100% legit and Tyrant becomes as big a boy scout as Captain America or Superman.  Where does that leave Praetoria though?  It's either sunshine and kittens everywhere (doesn't make for good storytelling after the reformation) OR Tyrant is ousted by one or more of the other Praetors and becomes an exile.  MAYBE he could lead the Resistance at that point but after ages of horrors, the people aren't going to be so quick to take him on as a savior.

 

Second, it's all show as Techwright posted above.  Tyrant's ego is huge and everything is about him, so the redemption isn't real.  All this story path does is further muddy the name of the Statesman character and would probably leave people as annoyed as Tyrant impersonating Statesman in that fighting game.

 

Third might be the best from a pure storytelling perspective; it's sort of real.  Cole wants to do better but is struggling against his old urges and tendencies, as well as forces in Praetoria that see his change in persona as a sign of weakness.  Heroes are left acting as his conscience, cleaning up his messes and helping him try to guide Praetoria to something better.  Eventually he gets there and becomes truly worthy of the mantle though.

 

 

Any of those options could happen even with the original Statesman returning though; Tyrant just takes a different name for his new heroic persona. 

 

 

[FupDup]

9 minutes ago, The Witchfire said:

-snip-

Where does that leave Praetoria though?  It's either sunshine and kittens everywhere (doesn't make for good storytelling after the reformation) OR Tyrant is ousted by one or more of the other Praetors and becomes an exile.  MAYBE he could lead the Resistance at that point but after ages of horrors, the people aren't going to be so quick to take him on as a savior.

 

Second, it's all show as Techwright posted above.  Tyrant's ego is huge and everything is about him, so the redemption isn't real.  All this story path does is further muddy the name of the Statesman character and would probably leave people as annoyed as Tyrant impersonating Statesman in that fighting game.

 

Third might be the best from a pure storytelling perspective; it's sort of real.  Cole wants to do better but is struggling against his old urges and tendencies, as well as forces in Praetoria that see his change in persona as a sign of weakness.  Heroes are left acting as his conscience, cleaning up his messes and helping him try to guide Praetoria to something better.  Eventually he gets there and becomes truly worthy of the mantle though.

 

Any of those options could happen even with the original Statesman returning though; Tyrant just takes a different name for his new heroic persona. 

Praetoria has pretty much already collapsed and most of the world has been overtaken by the Devouring Earth, with The Last Bastion (from Number Six's arc) being one of the few places still inhabited by humanity. Many of the old Praetors are dead, Bobcat is working with Mr G. in the Rogue Isles now, Battle Maiden is working for Malta, and Marauder is with the New Praetorians.  

 

That part of the equation is already taken care of. 

[Darmian]

3 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Praetoria has pretty much already collapsed and most of the world has been overtaken by the Devouring Earth, with The Last Bastion (from Number Six's arc) being one of the few places still inhabited by humanity. Many of the old Praetors are dead, Bobcat is working with Mr G. in the Rogue Isles now, Battle Maiden is working for Malta, and Marauder is with the New Praetorians.  

 

That part of the equation is already taken care of. 

Last Bastion is it.  It's possible Night Ward had refugees/escapees for a while, but nothing grows there so no food although surviving supers might survive longer. Either way it's probably reverted to the dead and Drudges.

[ZeeHero]

Some people should stay dead. Let Statesman stay dead and rest in peace, the old man has earned it.

It's our turn to take care of things.

[El D]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

Right, I forgot to comment on this. Sorry. Anyway, at least part of the reason why Lord Recluse and the patrons help you in the fight against Darrin Wade as he progresses his plan to become Rula-Wade and why they go with you (if you let them) to help fight Rula-Wade is because Lord Recluse very much wants to tear down Darrin Wade for having killed Statesman. (It's not the only reason, but it is a strong reason.) To the point that you can let Lord Recluse and the patrons handle a lot of the fighting with Rula-Wade. No effort to protect themselves from his power, just 'there he is! ATTACK!!!' feeling dedication. So no, there won't be a reunion gift from Red Widow of Darrin Wade to Lord Recluse. He pretty much already got his mad on taken care of. As long as Darrin Wade rots in Vanguard's care, Lord Recluse is probably content with letting him live having helped topple him at the height of his power. (Which as far as Recluse is concerned, shows he is superior to Statesman, and Darrin Wade's victory over Statesman was a lucky fluke rather than Wade having accomplished something Recluse had not in all the time he and Statesman knew each other.)

 

You know, that's a fair point. I'd buy that as Recluse effectively putting the rivalry to bed on his own terms (as much as he could, given the context). Jives with Libby's on-going attempts to get him to turn over a new leaf, too. Not necessarily in any way that'd make it more or less successful, but just plausible.

[Bionic_Flea]

/jranger.

 

Moreover, /Rudra!

[keyguardactive]

I think we let Marcus Cole stay dead, but I wouldn't mind a Legacy story where someone else takes up the mantle, Reign of the Supermen/Battle for the Cowl style. Maybe Tyrant even IS one of the Statesmen running around. Miss Liberty is Stateswoman. Eventually it goes to, I don't know, Foreshadow.