What are your feelings over Devs disabling Class Signature abilities to favor challenge?

[DrRocket]

I remember in live days, playing at the time a much community despised Storm Defender going, yay BAF has prisoners and my hurricane can help herd them, block them, and thinking, boy! I'm gonna finally get some love for the community! So I join a BAF all excited full of anticipation, only to learn the Devs decided to make the prisoners immune to my repel! I was totally heartbroken over it!

 

Later when Homecoming resurrected this great game, and remembering my sad experience with BAF, I became a bit sensitive to this topic. I was really aggravated at my Tank's taunt being essentially pointless with Director 11 and Battle Maiden; then my Controller's holds/roots despite being spammed and having other dominators and controllers joining in to have our holds and roots combined to be essentially disabled.

 

I get the Devs want to make the TFs/SFs challenging, but if the way to create challenge is by disabling signature abilities from classes as a method truly  legitimate?

 

Anyone out there have any thoughts on this topic?

 

Look forward to the commentary

[Snarky]

37 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

I remember in live days, playing at the time a much community despised Storm Defender going, yay BAF has prisoners and my hurricane can help herd them, block them, and thinking, boy! I'm gonna finally get some love for the community! So I join a BAF all excited full of anticipation, only to learn the Devs decided to make the prisoners immune to my repel! I was totally heartbroken over it!

 

Later when Homecoming resurrected this great game, and remembering my sad experience with BAF, I became a bit sensitive to this topic. I was really aggravated at my Tank's taunt being essentially pointless with Director 11 and Battle Maiden; then my Controller's holds/roots despite being spammed and having other dominators and controllers joining in to have our holds and roots combined to be essentially disabled.

 

I get the Devs want to make the TFs/SFs challenging, but if the way to create challenge is by disabling signature abilities from classes as a method truly  legitimate?

 

Anyone out there have any thoughts on this topic?

 

Look forward to the commentary

Pretty sure the BAF Prisoner phase is a very special sub game.  Do not conflate the Devs getting rid of ATs signature abilities with the real goal of making the (trial they inherited) work.  The prisoners are on a track, and their logic is very simple.  If you repelled them whole new bundles of code would need to be added.  They are very specifically affected by certain things, not so much by anything else.  Maybe that means the Devs hate signature abilities of ATs.  Hmmm, or, possible, it means they hate all players!  It is a trap, a Nemesis plot!  We are doomed to fail!

[Major_Decoy]

I don't think you can call Hurricane's repel a "Class Signature ability"

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Major_Decoy said:

I don't think you can call Hurricane's repel a "Class Signature ability"

they just did

[BasiliskXVIII]

There’s a concept in D&D called “shoot your monks.” Monks have a cool ability to catch projectiles and, if they succeed on a high enough roll, throw them back. It’s flashy, it’s fun, and it often tempts DMs to avoid ranged attackers so the monk doesn’t dominate the encounter. But the advice goes: shoot your monks anyway. Let them shine. Let them feel awesome, even if just for a moment. Because the player who took the class wants to be able to make use of that ability, and doing so in a way that lets them show off a little, even if it makes a hard fight easy is what makes them feel special

 

But there’s a balance. That monk can’t shut down everything. They have limited resources. One monk catching arrows won’t trivialise an entire encounter full of archers. They’ll contribute. They’ll maybe even dominate a moment. But they won’t make the rest of the party irrelevant.

 

That’s what makes the issue here tricky.

 

If a single Storm character (or a Force Field defender, or anyone with a strong repel aura) can completely block prisoner escapes in the BAF, it doesn’t just let them shine... it erases the mechanic. One person solving a 24-player problem might feel great for the one, but it leaves the rest of the team spectators. That’s not fun, either. That’s not challenge; that’s a bypass.

 

Now, with that said, I do think the “solution” of just flipping switches and disabling entire categories of abilities is lazy, and it does contribute to the idea that only damage really matters. When holds, roots, taunts, or knockback are all quietly invalidated in later content, it undercuts what makes support and control fun in the first place. There’s something broken about a superhero game where you can’t web a villain to a telephone pole and call it a win.

 

But we also have to acknowledge the backend: City of Heroes was, and still is, a complete and utter catastrophe of spaghetti code. The Praetorian arcs were built on a short timeline with limited dev resources, and that shows. They had to ship content that looked like it challenged players, and flipping immunity flags was a quick fix.

 

It’s not elegant design. But it’s also not always malicious.

 

What I’d like to see is more trust in players’ creativity: more content that lets the Stormie block the door, if they work with the team. Or lets the Controller hold a key target if they time it well. Or lets the Tank’s taunt make a difference. Because when those things land, it’s unforgettable. And when they’re shut out by default, we all feel a little less relevant.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I get the OP's point but I understand the Devs' motivations here (I think) in that we are typically a smaller community than we were on live and some of our shards have much much smaller populations than on live.

 

The only solutions to that is to either merge shards - which would result in huge upset to many players and be a logistical nightmare (and probably wouldn't solve the fundamental issue) or to make it easier for tiny populations to win the hardest content.

 

On Excel it's easy because getting a big team is relatively simple - on Indom or Runion far less so.

 

No it's not ideal, but a compromise needed to be made and this seems a reasonable one.

 

But I also think OP needs to think seriously about what he considers to be "signature" powers.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

3 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

It’s not elegant design. But it’s also not always malicious.

 

What I’d like to see is more trust in players’ creativity: more content that lets the Stormie block the door, if they work with the team. Or lets the Controller hold a key target if they time it well. Or lets the Tank’s taunt make a difference. Because when those things land, it’s unforgettable. And when they’re shut out by default, we all feel a little less relevant.

 

Whilst I agree with your post entirely the issue there is that 20 seconds after somebody works out how to do it, then it's done that way forever and it becomes boringly easy. If it doesn't get done boringly easy,  then it doesn't get done at all because something else much easier and even more boring can be done instead

 

 

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I get the OP's point but I understand the Devs' motivations here (I think) in that we are typically a smaller community than we were on live and some of our shards have much much smaller populations than on live.

 

The only solutions to that is to either merge shards - which would result in huge upset to many players and be a logistical nightmare (and probably wouldn't solve the fundamental issue) or to make it easier for tiny populations to win the hardest content.

 

On Excel it's easy because getting a big team is relatively simple - on Indom or Runion far less so.

 

No it's not ideal, but a compromise needed to be made and this seems a reasonable one.

 

But I also think OP needs to think seriously about what he considers to be "signature" powers.

 

STOP saying merge Shards.  People play on low pop Shards by CHOICE   There are options.

[Vanden]

I think I'd rather talk about my feelings regarding loaded questions

[Major_Decoy]

18 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I think I'd rather talk about my feelings regarding loaded questions

If you're getting Questions drunk then it's only fair that you're dealing with loaded Questions.

[BasiliskXVIII]

9 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Whilst I agree with your post entirely the issue there is that 20 seconds after somebody works out how to do it, then it's done that way forever and it becomes boringly easy. If it doesn't get done boringly easy,  then it doesn't get done at all because something else much easier and even more boring can be done instead

Currently there's one way to resolve the problem: damage. In almost all cases, it's the only way to resolve the problem and it's boringly easy. If you have enough of it, all problems in the game are trivial. 

The Hamidon is actually a decent example of what I'd like to see more of. There's two main ways I've seen to handle Hami. Have a full league? Then you go around, taking out the various coloured mitos, and then attack the core once his defences are down. Control is on one, ranged damage on another, and melee on another still. If you don't have that, though, you can take the riskier road and just zerg rush the core. 

 

Let's face it, if instead of total immunity to mez, the BAF Mindwashed were given something more like Mag -30 to mez with very high resistance, it would probably still be more effective to be focusing on killing them outright. But if you had a few controllers/dominators focusing fire because they're in the fray throwing controls around anyways, they could still accomplish locking them down briefly and buying the group a bit of time. You'd be able to get controllers on the field going "Ok, well, I contributed" rather than "I did less damage than anyone and had no ability to hold them."

Right now, support and control in these parts of the game aren’t weak; they’re irrelevant. And that’s not balance, it’s neglect. Letting those roles matter a little more wouldn’t break the game. It’d make more people feel like they were actually playing it.

[Clave Dark 5]

1 hour ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

If a single Storm character (or a Force Field defender, or anyone with a strong repel aura) can completely block prisoner escapes in the BAF, it doesn’t just let them shine... it erases the mechanic. One person solving a 24-player problem might feel great for the one, but it leaves the rest of the team spectators. That’s not fun, either. That’s not challenge; that’s a bypass.

Pretty sure it's this right here.  That said, I have sen them get Held before, so focus on that instead, if you're planning out a toon to excel at one thing (I mean, it's useful elsewhere too, of course).

[DrRocket]

3 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

I don't think you can call Hurricane's repel a "Class Signature ability"

Missed the purpose of the post entirely...

[Major_Decoy]

18 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

Missed the purpose of the post entirely...

I didn't miss the purpose, I don't accept the premise.

 

The first paragraph was about your experience about one power not working as expected on the BAF. The second paragraph was about taunt not working on Director 11 (which is not my experience with Taunt on Director 11), the +10000% afraid means he moves around a little, but I've found it entirely manageable, and controls not working on Director 11 which is not unique to trials (It is more of a problem on Director 11 because he's got magnitude 30 immobilize protection and most AVs don't). The purple triangles just lay waste to controls, but that's a problem across the whole game.

 

Saying "Director 11 and Battle Maiden are hard to control" does not mean that signature class abilities are disabled any more than "Mitochondria Antibodies have such high defense that blasting them is useless" means that blaster's signature ability has been disabled in the hamidon fight.

 

It could trial challenge is currently only achieved by shutting down signature class abilities. There could be a very compelling argument made for that, and how most incarnate powers supplant existing powers rather than enhancing them. But you're not making that argument. The question you're asking is apparently entirely unrelated to the examples you start with, if I am to trust you.

[Scarlet Shocker]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

STOP saying merge Shards.  People play on low pop Shards by CHOICE   There are options.

 

I have never in my life advocated merging shards and understand this. Please reread.

[GM Crumpet]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

Pretty sure the BAF Prisoner phase is a very special sub game.  Do not conflate the Devs getting rid of ATs signature abilities with the real goal of making the (trial they inherited) work.  The prisoners are on a track, and their logic is very simple.  If you repelled them whole new bundles of code would need to be added.  They are very specifically affected by certain things, not so much by anything else.  Maybe that means the Devs hate signature abilities of ATs.  Hmmm, or, possible, it means they hate all players!  It is a trap, a Nemesis plot!  We are doomed to fail!

Darn it!! You rumbled us. We'd have got away with it too if it wasn't for those darned vampires!

[Skyhawke]

A good point is made about control being ignored in higher end content, though. I'll add another log to that fire and point out that my Ice/Elec Brute can spam Ice Patch on a BAF and keep all but bosses slipping up on their butts. I plant him near a choke point and keep the patch up. A Brute doing more crowd control than a Controller does seem a bit nutty, eh?

Edited Thursday at 12:20 PM by Skyhawke

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

I have never in my life advocated merging shards and understand this. Please reread.

You brought it up.  
 

Du hast es gesagt.

[tidge]

I want to springboard off of @Skyhawke and @BasiliskXVIII poinst above, mostly to say that the game really can't provide much in the way of in-game rewards for anything except doing damage and defeating enemies... and the devs (starting with Live, but somewhat continuing with HC,) have always been really hesitant about player-used-control in "hard content", for obvious reasons... which is pretty much all the explanation necessary for why things are the way they are.

 

Try to recall what happened when PVP was introduced, and suddenly the Stun component of Energy Melee became a thing...  also we didn't get "Control" incarnate powers for a reason. Tankers don't get XP for resisting damage (or dodging attacks), controllers don't get XP for Holds. It's just the way the game is.

 

IMO, the one thing the devs should explore more of when it comes to enemy critters (and they've been doing this, so kudos) is giving the enemies the ability to pull "stupid player tricks", like slotting patches for Knockdown (hullo nuEochai) trigger Rune of Protection to break free, etc. The game has had enemies that do debuffs, I like seeing more offensive tricks.

[MoonSheep]

16 hours ago, Snarky said:

STOP saying merge Shards.  People play on low pop Shards by CHOICE   There are options.

 

wuss

 

i say: merge those servers! at random times, without notice, in different directions

 

also: start changing the size of maps gradually without telling people

 

make atlas park a little bit smaller each week during maintenance until we’re all crammed together like a nightclub and add 200 feet to steel canyon every month so it’s 3 miles long

[Bionic_Flea]

Way back when, I was one of the beta testers for the BAF trial.  No one had ever done it or seen anything like it in the game and it seemed impossible.  We also didn't have any incarnate powers or the kind of tricked out builds you can make now.  The first part where we have to clear X number of robots was relatively easy.  The we ran after Nightstar and the Towers were annihilating us.  I was on a tank and discovered that the building right in front of the tennis courts was just outside the range and sight of all the towers, so I pulled her up there.  She followed easily with super jump, but none of her robot pals had that so we could just deal with her alone.  They gave all the robots super jump on the next patch.

 

Anyway, all that to say that during these tests one of the devs (I forget who) mentioned that the role they envisioned for controllers and dominators was to hold the waves of robots while everyone else spanked the AV.  So while they limited control for the escape phase (too easy with controls and critters that don't fight back), they felt that they gave them another important role in another phase

[ZeeHero]

Disabling abilities and making enemies immune to some aspect of that ability's utility are not the same. Disabling an ability prevents you from using it at all.

I understand what you mean though. But the BAF prisoners are a bit of a special case.

 

A very well kitted troller or dom is capable of holding the AV in itrials sometimes too. just can't keep em locked down like with Rommy in ITF.

Edited Thursday at 05:16 PM by ZeeHero

[MTeague]

19 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

I don't think you can call Hurricane's repel a "Class Signature ability"

Especially given how often I've seen requests to remove that Repel effect from Hurricane.

[dukedukes]

23 hours ago, DrRocket said:

but if the way to create challenge is by disabling signature abilities from classes as a method truly  legitimate?

 

If the designer wants a certain outcome and need to give resists to mobs for that outcome then so be it. It's not necessarily a perfect design but it doesn't have to be.

 

You may be missing that the weaker mobs are not immune to repel, so you can group all the weaker mobs indefinitely which may allow your team to take out the stronger mobs easier. Granted I did this with Repulsion Field and not Hurricane, so Hurricane might not be able to do it. I tried this my first time on BAF with my repel character, me (troller) and a scrapper managed to hold things down for one particular spawn. Nothing super impressive, but the repel power made things easier for us. The other player I was with was having a blast apparently, they complimented me on the strat.

 

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

Especially given how often I've seen requests to remove that Repel effect from Hurricane.

 

Skill issue probably, I think it's good some powers are harder to use effectively. Maybe they just wanted a huge amount of -tohit though.