Stupid Scrapper Tricks

[marcussmythe]

Upon a time, there were threads and discussion of 'Stupid Scrapper Tricks' - hauling our pet AT out and doing things that really shouldnt be doable.  We are all far more capable now than we were once upon a time, so the bar is rather higher - but we should still look for standouts.

 

Id like to see that started again, and maybe kept in one place.

 

I know we have a pair here (names lost, I am sorry!) who managed to duo the STF - an achievement unlikely to be bettered (or, for that matter, equalled any time soon).

 

I am curious to hear what other people have to report.

 

For my own part:

TW/Bio (Solo, at least +1, temp powers and inspirations and the like all used liberally)

Imperious Task Force

Kronos Titan (GM and AV versions)

Praetorian AVs (All)

Kraken

Jurassic

 

Things I Cant Do Yet:

Apex (This may not be doable, at least by me)

Lanarru the Mad (This should be doable, and other have done so!)

[MunkiLord]

I'm all for this idea!!!

 

But I do disagree about the STF. JSHMOE and I discussed it since we completed it, and we both feel there was a TON of room for improvement. I think we could cut the time in half relatively easily because our LR strategy was terrible and wrong.

 

I'm impressed by the GM soloing. I was under the impression Scrappers could not do this.

 

As a whole, us Scrappers need to raise the bar again. A Blaster recently soloed a +4x8 ITF, maybe a Master run. I realize it's not personal, and I really like Blasters too, but we should see this as an entire AT calling us out. And when we get called out, punching things is the answer.

[marcussmythe]

I'm all for this idea!!!

 

But I do disagree about the STF. JSHMOE and I discussed it since we completed it, and we both feel there was a TON of room for improvement. I think we could cut the time in half relatively easily because our LR strategy was terrible and wrong.

 

I'm impressed by the GM soloing. I was under the impression Scrappers could not do this.

 

As a whole, us Scrappers need to raise the bar again. A Blaster recently soloed a +4x8 ITF, maybe a Master run. I realize it's not personal, and I really like Blasters too, but we should see this as an entire AT calling us out. And when we get called out, punching things is the answer.

 

I dont see any problems soloing +4/x8 ITF.  Not so sure about Master Run - I was using big purple candy (TM!) to carry me through the 'dead Nictus autostuns everything'.  Ill have to cudgel my brain to figure out how I would pull Imperious away from his Nictus buddies, or vice-versa.

 

(Aside - is ITF considered particularly difficult?  It gave me much less trouble than the one Shard Task Force I tried and failed - but that may be a difference of incarnates/purples/etc, and the fact that the longer you live with a character and the more you push them the better you get at playing them.  One very, very minor lament about modern CoH and double xp/accelerated xp/AE/whatever - despite being at Vet 60 or so, I dont -know- Ramayael the way I did HERO (Invuln/EM) back on live.  I dont play Ramayael as well as I did Hero.  Ive not spent as much time with her, in as many places and at as many levels...

 

RE:  'Bettered' - I mean as in 'Something clearly more impressive'.  Ive no doubt the time could be gotten down, the characters further tuned and turned into STF-Seeking-Missiles with the entire build leveraged to that purpose.  But I more mean 'Im not sure there are task forces, which are harder, which may still be duoed' and 'I do not believe that the STF, having been duoed, could be soloed in the game as it exists'.

 

Unless someone can find a way to burn pylons WHILE running away from Lord Recluse before turning on him and killing him...  Hmm...

[MunkiLord]

No I don't think the ITF is particularly difficult, but that's something I just didn't think I'd see a Blaster do. I just think we should take it as a challenge more for extra motivation.

[Eva Destruction]

The ITF isn't particularly difficult but a +3 Rommy can murder a blaster in short order.  So can regular Cimerorans if you get careless.  So a MO run is still impressive.

 

And if you break LoS as soon as Rommy dies you don't get stunned.  Everybody used to jump off to the side of the stairs as soon as he dropped but now apparently people don't?

[marcussmythe]

The ITF isn't particularly difficult but a +3 Rommy can murder a blaster in short order.  So can regular Cimerorans if you get careless.  So a MO run is still impressive.

 

And if you break LoS as soon as Rommy dies you don't get stunned.  Everybody used to jump off to the side of the stairs as soon as he dropped but now apparently people don't?

 

I didnt remember that!  I always cleared the Nictus and then Rommy.  Ill try that... just drop Romulus 4 times, jumping off each time.

[Sir Myshkin]

Side tangent about the TF focused on Lord Recluse and the Pylons, I know there were a few solo attempts documented back on Live (sic: attempts), but I believe the only method I'd for-sure say is viable would be an Illusion Controller with Cold, Rad, or what-have-you debuff secondary in combination with Incarnate Lore pets. Phantom Army to occupy Recluse, and the Lore pets to shred the four Pylons. I believe they should be able to clear 3, if not all 4 within 5 minutes. If I recall correctly, don't there end up being repair goons at some point too? Probably going to need a way to burst off AoE… Judgement would probably be enough there though I bet.

 

For a Scrapper to pull that off while getting pummeled, I'd wager it'd have to be a high-spec Bio Armor or Regen to compensate the buffs Recluse would be getting by having a high regen rate behind a ton of resists/defenses. Once the pylons are down though... He's kind of a push over.

 

 

I do have another */Regen character planned, maybe once they're 50 I'll see. I know my Regen build can hold up to Titan Cole, and I don't think Recluse (buffed) out puts as much power as Titan Cole does in his one AoE (10% HP per second). I'd just have to make sure I have a strong enough DPS  to take those pylons down in a hurry, and then him.

[Eva Destruction]

Yes, there are repair goons, they spawn far more frequently than Judgement recharges, and iirc they work fast so you can't rely on Lore pets using their AoEs either.  On the other hand, they're like level 40 minions or something equally squishy, so if you have an AoE power in your APP that would probably take care of them.

[Redlynne]

Hold the aggro of FIVE RIKTI MAGUS during a Mothership Raid for up to 2 minutes (without help or faceplanting yourself) while waiting for the "cavalry" to arrive and help you with the beatdown so as to prevent those FIVE RIKTI MAGUS from wiping the raid.

 

Extra bonus points for doing it more than once in the same Mothership Raid ... without resorting to use of Inspirations.

 

 

 

I got a ... reputation ... for pulling this stunt back on Virtue server.

 

The first time I did it, people were SHOCKED (shocked I say!) to find me alive (and still kicking) underneath a dogpile of FIVE RIKTI MAGUS.

The second time I did it, people started sending me tells of awe.

Then I did it twice in one raid ... and a reputation was born (as they say).

 

The Extraordinary Death-defying Redlynne

 

Rikti Magus are my natural prey.

 

And to think, I was playing a Scrapper while doing that ...

[marcussmythe]

Updates:  Lusca down, Lanarru the mad down, Kronos down.

 

I dont think Apex is doable.  DPS uptime is basically zilch due to blue circles of death.  I MIGHT be able to master it by knowing when the cast is coming, dashing out, and then back in.. but even so, this is an endgame boss fight that favors range and debuff ability.

 

Really, I think with the spread of surviability to all ATs via IOs and Incarnates, coupled with the vital nature of -regen and the mass amounts of basically impossible to mitigate damage/debuff of endgame 'stuff', melee ATs are probably the worst choice to try to do this stuff with.

 

:(

[Werner]

One of my final Stupid Scrapper Tricks in the old game was doing all of the Mot arcs except the last on +4x8 using Scrapper Challenge rules, where my interpretation of "no deaths" was that I had to finish the arc with no deaths on any mission, but that I didn't have to finish every single arc in sequence with no deaths. I say "except the last" because I kept dying, and eventually gave up in favor of coming back at it with a Brute for the higher resistance caps. Then I never got the Brute finished before the game shut down. 

 

But yeah, the current game ramps things up a bit. I don't have any Stupid Scrapper Trick goals yet. And right now, I'm playing more Brutes than Scrappers.

 

 

[Olly]

TW/Bio. Liberal use of temp powers and inspirations. Solo'd:

 

- All GM's including Kronos and Jurassik, except Lusca. (Lusca when I get around to it)

- ITF +4/x8.  Tyvm to the community for helping me crack this one and thus helping me figure out STF & Khan.

- ITF MoITF solo

- STF (!)

- Khan (!!!) 

- All hero-side trials up to level 50

- All other hero-side TF's except Yin, Numina, and Sara Moore (all on my to-do list)

 

To try:

- Apex Trial

- Tin Mage Trial

 

Khan was absolutely the worst. Massive abuse of the email system and ultimate insps. But yeah, I got it done solo. STF was also pretty horrific, but nowhere near as trying. I did manage STF without kiting, which I'm quite proud of. I took notes of what I thought were key tactics for STF and Khan. I'll post them at some point.

 

[leeowensoas]

On live I had really just started getting into scrapper shenanigans when the sunset came, but I recall soloing a bunch of AVs with no insps, incarnates, or no temps, following the scrapper rules. I loved my purpled out Claws/SR and FM/SD.

 

Since coming back, my first character (DB/SR) has only hit level 42, but I did manage to solo Jurassik at the end of the Numina TF (Monster, not GM) with no insps or temps (no envenomed dagger!) with an about half-IO'd build, so that was a pleasant surprise! Did they nerf the Monster class? I thought on live they weren't soloable by melee classes without breaking the scrapper rules, and while it was slow going, I managed to churn him down pretty easily, way moreso than the ambush at the end of the Manticore TF (had to use insps AND daggers for that one!). Excited to get to 50 and really put this guy through his paces. More stupid scrapper tricks forthcoming!

[nihilii]

On 4/18/2020 at 9:02 PM, leeowensoas said:

Did they nerf the Monster class?

Jurassik is an Archvillain at the end of the Numina TF, even though it shows Monster in his rank as flavor. Still pretty cool to solo him on a leveling character IMHO, well done. 🙂

[Banana Man]

Apex is pretty fun and easy with tw/fire.  Tin mage isn't that much harder, just more tedious because of all the goliath war walkers and their s/l res. Tw/bio should be more than able to do them too.

[Shred Monkey]

On 7/21/2019 at 8:57 PM, marcussmythe said:

Really, I think with the spread of surviability to all ATs via IOs and Incarnates, coupled with the vital nature of -regen and the mass amounts of basically impossible to mitigate damage/debuff of endgame 'stuff', melee ATs are probably the worst choice to try to do this stuff with.

I suspect you're correct.  I've been doing my own stupid tricks with my beam/devices blaster.  The obvious ones to benefit ranged are Apex and ITF, but I really think almost everything is easier on a ranged toon as long as you have a real DPS chain without going into melee.    

 

Gonna throw out another challenge for the group.   Level 54 AVs.  Outside of DA and Ape-Mage you're gonna be -3 to these guys which really cranks up the difficulty.  They're much harder than the level 50 versions.  I think Siege may be the toughest I've done (he has a heal).  He's harder than most GMs.  I haven't gone though the Red Side bosses, yet so they may be more difficult.   

 

 

 

[Werner]

2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

Gonna throw out another challenge for the group.   Level 54 AVs.

Outside of AE DPS test runs on Chimera and I think Mother Mahem, so far I've only no temps no insps soloed the L54 AVs in the ITF, and only with my Katana/Dark Brute. It really didn't feel much different to me than back in the old days soloing L50 AVs other than maybe using Dark Regen less. There's been significant power creep. At about 280 DPS, I'll probably be DPS limited on any AV with a heal or resistance, survival limited on any AV with defense debuffs. I'm incarnating my new 50 DM/SR Brute right now. I'm curious how he'll compare when he's ready. I have my doubts about his DPS being sufficient.

[nihilii]

6 hours ago, Werner said:

Outside of AE DPS test runs on Chimera and I think Mother Mahem, so far I've only no temps no insps soloed the L54 AVs in the ITF, and only with my Katana/Dark Brute. It really didn't feel much different to me than back in the old days soloing L50 AVs other than maybe using Dark Regen less.

That is how it feels for me as well. Level 54 AVs right now (no Lore) are roughly like level 50 AVs back when we had the Alpha slot and nothing else. I've soloed most if not all level 54 AVs on my Fire/Rad sentinel, which isn't the best character for the task.

 

9 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I suspect you're correct.  I've been doing my own stupid tricks with my beam/devices blaster.  The obvious ones to benefit ranged are Apex and ITF, but I really think almost everything is easier on a ranged toon as long as you have a real DPS chain without going into melee.

I want to agree with this so bad (and I love what you're doing with your beam/dev), but the sheer destructive power of a TW/bio scrapper is head and shoulders above any other option in the game right now.

It's to the point I specifically avoid putting my own TW/bio through challenge stuff, *yet still end up beating challenges I want to get through with other characters*.

For example, I've had this goal to take on the LRSF final 7 without lore/temps/mail/pulls/ultimates. No moving outside of the main ring. I built a DA/TW Tanker for that purpose. She managed to take down Numina before getting killed on her first try. Then with more attempts, she managed to take down Numina and Penelope.

Then another day, I casually solo the LRSF with my TW/bio and decide to jump in just for the fun of it. Managed to take down Numina, Penelope *and* Manticore before getting killed.

I have an AE testing mission where you fight a bunch of endgame factions, one group of each, on a timer. I put the characters I like most through it in +4/x8. Surprisingly, highend builds of completely different ATs tend to end up in the same range. Except the TW/bio scrapper, who pulls ahead by a disgusting margin.

 

(Except the Fire/Fire Dominator. But then, Dominators are well-suited to traditional static fights where enemies are nicely bunched up for a mag6 AoE mez + immobilize.)

Being able to deal ~700+ DPS that isn't *too* conditional just breaks the game in absurd ways. A level 54 AV with no resistances melts in less than 2 minutes. The gap grows further in challenge situations where you have to implement defensive measures, as lower DPS characters get closer to the "barely break even with regen" point while a TW/bio scrapper maintains a healthy differential.

True, in Apex the blue circles make that DPS drop down somewhat. But then you pop BU, your Gaussian procs, your Critical Strikes follows and you deal 3000-4000 damage in just a few hits thanks to Momentum. TW/bio isn't just extremely high sustained DPS, it's also mindblowing burst damage, so high that it translates into extremely high sustained DPS in the longer run.

 

It's no surprise the only recorded solo Lambda sector was done by a TW/bio scrapper.

 

Even "no insps/temps" don't constrain a TW/bio scrapper so much, as he can just cruise on Shadow Meld + /bio clicks to still boast decent enough survivability his ludicrous damage will get him through it.

 

Fire blasters (with amplifiers and insps) aren't too shabby either. But they do need the amplifiers or insps, IMHO. If you build for no insps/temps or even just longterm sustainability without preparation, the blaster will likely need to dip into Clarion and/or Rune of Protection + Melee Core, and chase for ranged defense or whatnot at the expense of pure damage. While a TW/bio needs make no sacrifice.

At the same time... who cares about TW/bio, I guess. It's the Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Akuma of CoH. When one combo is so grossly overpowered, it's easy to make a mental distinction between what you achieve with it and what you can do with everything else. 😛

Edited April 28, 2020 by nihilii

[Shred Monkey]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

At the same time... who cares about TW/bio, I guess. It's the Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Akuma of CoH. When one combo is so grossly overpowered, it's easy to make a mental distinction between what you achieve with it and what you can do with everything else. 😛

Yeah... I've not made a TW/bio scrapper for pretty much this reason.  I'd not seen either of these sets before Homecoming (I missed the last year or so of Live, so not sure what the status of these were)... but I remember reading through them when I got back and thinking, "wha?  that's broke as heck."

 

Edited to add this counter argument:   When I took my StJ/Bio stalker through the AV arcs at +4, the final battle with the Mot Monster was fantastic.  It lasted 10+ minutes and the whole time I was using every regen and absorb power I had keep my health up until I could popped rebirth again.  I was using my inspirations in emergency only to make them last.  With my last inspiration used and my health dropping dangerously low, I struck the winning blow and emerged in glorious victory.  My face hurt from smiling the entire fight.  I remember thinking, that was the most fun I've ever had in this game.   But when I took my Beam/Devices blaster to the fight, I just hovered over the guy and took him down in 4-5 minutes with no effort at all.  I could have been watching TV and eating a sandwich and the fight would have had the same result.  Maybe not glorious, but effective.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Shred Monkey

[Werner]

I have a TW/Bio Scrapper at 50, at which point he got mothballed. I keep meaning to pull him back out and do something with him. He was fun to play once he was swinging all that knockdown. But I also figure if I do something with him, by the time he's maxed out, he'll be nerfed. That said, who cares if I'm doing half the DPS? He'd still be doing as much as my Katana/Dark Brute, with a lot more AoE and all that lovely knockdown. And they're unlikely to cut the damage in half.

[Sovera]

On 4/28/2020 at 10:40 AM, nihilii said:

True, in Apex the blue circles make that DPS drop down somewhat. But then you pop BU, your Gaussian procs, your Critical Strikes follows and you deal 3000-4000 damage in just a few hits thanks to Momentum. TW/bio isn't just extremely high sustained DPS, it's also mindblowing burst damage, so high that it translates into extremely high sustained DPS in the longer run.
 

TW is the one set I've not yet touched. Not because I am honorbond not to play OP sets but because I can't muster the interest for a character that will only be good at 50 and will never be able to exemplar decently.

 

A friend who tried TW and was singing its praises suffered from the same condition many of us did when we first played games and got introduced to the magic of cheat codes. Once we are invulnerable and having infinite bullets and can walk through walls the game life is lessened, not extended.

 

With all the sets being bow and arrows TW ends being an AK-47 that is the best at ST, the best at AoE, the best at burst and the best at sustain. Seriously, this is not healthy.

 

But, attempts at nerfing will have an OCEAN of tears in these forums. No AK-47 user will want to be downgraded to a bow and arrow.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Sovera

[Olly]

21 hours ago, Sovera said:

TW is the one set I've not yet touched. Not because I am honorbond not to play OP sets but because I can't muster the interest for a character that will only be good at 50 and will never be able to exemplar decently.

 

<stuff>

 

But, attempts at nerfing will have an OCEAN of tears in these forums. No AK-47 user will want to be downgraded to a bow and arrow.

 

Exemplaring is an exercise in patience, but still doable. And I've posted the STF tactics because I'd like to see other melee builds try it too. (Apex/TM was already done by TW/fire, as noted above.) I do think STF at least should be doable, and I'm curious if new tactics need to be developed -- much like I had to do something different to beat LR because scrappers are melee and not ranged attackers. Unfortunately, it's a very expensive habit, so I'm not really up to investing that much time and influence on another melee build to try myself. 

 

I wouldn't cry if TW/bio gets nerfed. Every game nerfs something at some point, people should be used to it by now. All that happens is the next best combo becomes the new FotM. Although, I've always wished they *buffed* everything slightly to make up instead of the lazy nerf-hammer every time. And I don't really know what the point is in nerfing a not-for-profit game. 

[Olly]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:39 PM, Shred Monkey said:

Gonna throw out another challenge for the group.   Level 54 AVs.  Outside of DA and Ape-Mage you're gonna be -3 to these guys which really cranks up the difficulty.  They're much harder than the level 50 versions.  I think Siege may be the toughest I've done (he has a heal).  He's harder than most GMs.  I haven't gone though the Red Side bosses, yet so they may be more difficult.   

 

 

 

 

You're gonna hate me but... I did Siege at +4. Also did: Chimera, Shadowhunter, Nightstar, Marauder, Neuron, and Anti-matter. Working my way through the rest via Oro. I didn't take pics of those, tho.

 

Honestly, I think the worst/hardest challenge is no temps/no insps. And that, honestly, I don't think any build can clear the board (solo all TF's and Trials, Level 54 AV's, Apex/TM) with. Especially if you don't have a build with strong inherent -regen powers. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Olly

[nihilii]

5 hours ago, Olly said:

I wouldn't cry if TW/bio gets nerfed. Every game nerfs something at some point, people should be used to it by now. All that happens is the next best combo becomes the new FotM. Although, I've always wished they *buffed* everything slightly to make up instead of the lazy nerf-hammer every time. And I don't really know what the point is in nerfing a not-for-profit game.

IMHO, TW is easily ~30% above any other choice. Like Sovera suggests, the playerbase will not stomach a ~30% nerf. If a TW nerf happens (and this remains to be seen), I'll bet dollars to peanuts the top performing combo will still be a TW/bio scrapper.

 

As for the point of nerfing, I think Sovera says it well too. Playing Doom with IDKFA is fun for a few minutes but the complete lack of challenge can only hold your attention for so long.

 

In CoH specifically, much of the interest lies in rerolling and tinkering with the systems in place. Having one power combo be the best by an overwhelming margin means any attempt you make with something else is just "pretend". You know you've got this one alt in your roster that would do better anyway.

 

At least for me, I get a kick out of making a new alt and thinking "this new project will be the most awesome thing I've ever built for [specific purpose]". But I have to ignore my TW/bio scrapper in order to make this work.

 

I can do that mental check, and I solo or duo with friends most of the time, so I don't care whether TW is nerfed. But some people can't come down from the high of TW performance. One of my friends left the game around July 2019 after a 2 weeks stint with his TW/Rad scrapper. With his playstyle, every spawn would become herd, BU, annihilate, and there simply wasn't anything for him to achieve or reroll. The cost of having overpowered combos is somewhat hidden, in that if people leave over it, you won't hear them complain.

 

"Overpowered" is of course in the eye of the beholder. For many people, folks who like 8-man teams, overall power creep is a big issue. They argue incarnates should be limited. They yearn for a time before IOs. The arguments are understandable from their perspective.

For those of us who like solo stuff, the game is at a pretty nice spot. +4/x8 against factions like peacebringer PPD, awakened, dark astoria mobs, rularuu and such can offer a challenge or at least the perception of challenge, with occasional deaths, and taking on an ITF or a STF or a RSF solo is still a big deal.

 

That is, for the average highend build. A TW/bio scrapper significantly moves the needle on that, to the point most of these challenges become trivial.

Buff everything slightly? Probably wouldn't change much. It's a big gap.
Buff everything to the point it's getting closer to TW? Now challenges aren't as challenging, for everyone. On top of that, the aforementioned team players are devastated over more power creep.

 

Entirely arbitrary take: for solo/duo, ~350 DPS is where the game is fun. ~700 DPS breaks the game. The former forces you to think against certain encounters, and you will always welcome the addition of a friend. The latter lets you power through almost anything the game can throw at you without adjusting your tactics, and friends are there to watch you be awesome more than anything.

[Sovera]

6 hours ago, nihilii said:

<good argument words>

You've put it to words better than I did. It's perhaps a bit of a subtle stance that will be disagreed with once the nerfs hit because POWAH is always welcome.

 

I only recently branched out from Bio Armor for the same reason. We're talking easily 8-9 months of playing CoH and Bio was the only secondary I used for more than experimenting. It's just too solid, it lacks the holes of Fire Armor, it gives endurance back, it has solid defense numbers, it has the two heals with one of them a shield. And to top it the 25% damage boost ON TOP of 7.5% -res.

 

Even now with my new baby being Rad Armor I still go through, 'But, if I played Bio I'd have the damage boost too...'. Only things like the ITF slow my Bio characters and things like Katana allow to mostly ignore even that hole