Is Dual Blades good for Scrapper?

[drgantz]

I have a DB Stalker which I like, and am thinking of making a DB/SR Scrapper.

I've read some comments on Reddit that DB is great for a Stalker, but not as good for a Scrapper.

Do any of you think that DB is good for a Scrapper?

[Hopeling]

It's very good for scrappers, at least as good as the stalker version IMO. We get Blinding Feint instead of Build Up, which is a win, and Attack Vitals ends with an AoE attack so you can get the extra damage on multiple targets.

[cprice]

I level up and specced out a DB/DA scrapper. Overhauled it twice and my take on it is that the Dmg is OK. You won't beat any record with it, but with the right attack chain, it is well serviceable to a team. Some of the secondary effects with the combos are nice. My issue with it is that you have to make sure you have some good accuracy or else you will be missing those important combos and that can hamper your DPS chain more than any other scrapper primary. With other primaries, if you miss an attack then you just move on to the next best attack that is up. With DB it's like "Damn I missed that attack. Gotta try and restart the next best combo chain." The combo oriented nature of its effectiveness is what turns people off sometimes. Also, keep in mind it is a bit endurance intensive as well. It isn't a bad set though. I also love the sound FX and animations!

[BrandX]

I level up and specced out a DB/DA scrapper. Overhauled it twice and my take on it is that the Dmg is OK. You won't beat any record with it, but with the right attack chain, it is well serviceable to a team. Some of the secondary effects with the combos are nice. My issue with it is that you have to make sure you have some good accuracy or else you will be missing those important combos and that can hamper your DPS chain more than any other scrapper primary. With other primaries, if you miss an attack then you just move on to the next best attack that is up. With DB it's like "Damn I missed that attack. Gotta try and restart the next best combo chain." The combo oriented nature of its effectiveness is what turns people off sometimes. Also, keep in mind it is a bit endurance intensive as well. It isn't a bad set though. I also love the sound FX and animations!

 

Not quite true.

 

All Dual Blades needs it Blinding Feint > Attack Vitals Combo > Repeat.

 

One of the attacks missed?  No worries.  It's starting over pretty quickly.  Just keep hitting the same attacks in a row.

 

I did just fine with a DB/WP/Body Scrapper on live.  Could solo ITF and AVs with just BF > AV Combo > Repeat without any Incarnate abilities and that was before ATO Procs, which I'm sure would make the set even better.

 

The idea one needs to go to a different combo is just psychological.  Really, the combo is just a matter of, it went off I got more damage!

 

You don't go "Man, I better do a lousy combo point attack instead of using my best attack ever at Combo Level 2" if you miss with Street Justice do you?

 

 

[Ukase]

I'm leveling up a DB/invuln scrapper now. 

I think you get better dps ignoring the combos..because 1) anecdotally - seems like I miss 30% of the time. Maybe that's because my toon is still level 30 and needs some more slotting, and I'm set at +2. 
2) Half the time, the power I'm supposed to use to continue the chain isn't recharged yet. 

It is a fun character, but waiting for powers to recharge to take advantage of some higher damage if the attack hits...well, that's just annoying. If I'd known this character had these combo attacks, I probably would have just gone with broad sword, but I wanted to try something new. 

Fun, but not sure I like having to always gain more slots to feel adequate, let alone super. 

[Kaeladin]

DB is quite strong on scrapper; it has a bit weaker ST damage than the stalker variant (although still quite strong compared to other scrapper sets), and stronger AOE than the stalker variant.

 

BF - Attack Vitals chain is your go-to at lower levels of recharge for both ST and AOE.

 

At higher levels of recharge (probably about 170%+ or greater added global recharge), you can switch to BF - Ablating - SS - Ablating - repeat for ST and keep the Attack Vitals chain for AOE.

[BrandX]

It takes a lot to get to BF > AS > SS > AS > Repeat for best ST DPS of DB.  BF > Attack Vitals > Repeat is good ST DPS that has a cone in it, that does AV soloing without the need for Incarnate abilities.

 

Even if you do miss an attack in the BF > AV chain, you're going to be doing good dps.  You're just not going to get the combo part (well except for BF aspect) to go off, for the additional damage.

 

No different than missing an attack in any other chain, you lose the damage from missing.  Why anyone thinks it's worse because of the combo system, is just in their heads.

[Warlawk]

14 hours ago, BrandX said:

No different than missing an attack in any other chain, you lose the damage from missing.  Why anyone thinks it's worse because of the combo system, is just in their heads.

This is factually and provably untrue. When you miss an attack in the DB chain you miss out on the rider effect from completing the chain. This has greater impact to your performance than missing an attack with a set that does not use that type of combos. The impact of that is greatly exaggerated because of the psychological aspect of it, but your statement that missing in a backloaded combo system that requires the entire chain to hit is no worse than regular sets is patently false.

[Hopeling]

It's a little different; combos have multiple chances to miss. If you get debuffed to a 50% hit chance, you can still land attacks reasonably often, but landing combos becomes pretty unlikely.

 

Even with capped hit chances, you still have a 14.3% chance to fail to execute a combo, so if you feel like you lose a lot of combos to missing, that's not just in your head. Just think of it as more like a proc than a guaranteed effect, and you'll be happier.

[BrandX]

The Combo's end is part of the damage.  It's no different than missing any other attack.

 

You go through the attacks 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > Repeat = SUCH AND SUCH DPS

 

The end of the combo is just part of that DPS total, just like every other set.

 

You're not hitting that high DPS on the other sets either if you're constantly missing the attacks in your chain.

 

What missing on DB means is, if you miss the first attack in the combo, you know you don't have that end of combo damage.  While other sets you won't know if you have that last attack's damage until you actually hit it.

[Werner]

In some ways the combo damage is similar to an extra attack. But it's overstating the case to say that it's no different. Here are three differences - you don't click it, it takes 0 time, and it has a lower than usual chance to hit. To me, as Hopeling suggests, that makes it more similar to a proc than to an attack. But whichever way you view it, I think we agree that it's best to focus on the such and such DPS, as you put it, rather than getting caught up in the disappointment of missing the combo. If I was offered an attack or a proc that did 3x the damage, but only hit 1/2 as often, I'd still take it. And yes, fine, I'm human so I'd be disappointed every time it missed, but it would be better to take it in stride and just be happy with how much damage it does on average.

[Keilis]

BF->AV is all you need, and it's easily had.  Before you get that level of recharge (or if you're debuffed), you can use BF->AV->NS/PS, whichever you chose for level 1.  Shredmonkey's (was he the one who came up with it?) BF->AS->SS->AS is there for people with absurd levels of recharge, but there *is* another option.  In that thread where we were exploring combo-less rotations, SM (I'm pretty sure it was him) came up with the ultra-recharge rotation, and I came up with BF->AS->SS.  I don't recall the numbers, but compared to the other chain, it does a bit less ST damage, more AoE, and responds better to recharge buffs.  It does have a gap, though, and some object to how that feels.  Then again, that gap is why Speed Boost benefits it so much.

 

I'm not sure at what point it pulls ahead of BF->AV, but it's worth considering if your build is going to have more recharge than you need for BF->AV.

[thegee]

what are you using for secondary with dual blades?

[BrandX]

I'm a bit worried about people's ACC/To-Hit levels, that they'd miss the combo so often.  I don't recall missing that often on the combo.

[Hopeling]

You don't recall missing about one attack in twenty?

[BrandX]

If you miss one attack in 20, you're only missing in the combo possibly 1 in 5 times, and that's if the attack that missed isn't BF, which isn't required for the combo to go off.

[Hopeling]

I'm not sure what you're referring to with "so often", then?

[Argulus]

Okay, so I am seeing votes for /Dark Armor and /Super Reflexes. Any thoughts on /Willpower with Dual Blades?

[BrandX]

It allows you to build for BF > Attack Vitals easily enough, while being quite sturdy and never really having to worry about clicking on anything other than your attacks.

[xl8]

TL/DR Missing a hit in a combo chain is not the end of the world.

[ninja surprise]

I have a DB/SR Scrapper and it's one of my favorite toons.  DB is just fine on a Scrapper.

[Shred Monkey]

Interesting necro thread here...

 

One of the things I like about DB is that it has very good low level attack chains as well.   If you do empower > brawl > weaken > brawl...  I think you can do this on a scrapper at level 8 or 9 using only the prestige enhancements from the p2w vendor to give the recharge needed.    If I recall correctly, I think it's 3 slots in abating strike and 1 each in BF and Typhoon.   This is a decent chain to use until you get to the point you can run BF>Attack Vitals.  

 

I think the thing that makes DB unique is that while it's ST damage is top shelf, it's biggest hitter (Sweeping Strikes) is a 90 deg cone.  You can target a boss, and with a little positioning it's relatively easy to finish all the melee LTs and Minions with just splash damage.  I like to have Typhoon's Edge as well to hit things that circle around behind me.

[Hyperstrike]

A stab (heh heh) at a high Acc, high Rech DB/SR Scrapper

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- Hct-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(3), Hct-Acc/Rchg:50(3), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Hct-Dam%:50(5)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(7), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(7), Rct-ResDam%:50(9)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(11), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit:50(13)
Level 4: Focused Senses -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(17)
Level 6: Agile -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(19), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(19), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg:50(21)
Level 8: Blinding Feint -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(21), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(23), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(25)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(25)
Level 12: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 14: Tough -- Ags-ResDam:50(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(27), Ags-Psi/Status:50(27), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(29), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(29)
Level 16: Dodge -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(31), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg:50(31)
Level 18: Vengeful Slice -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit:50(34)
Level 20: Weave -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 22: Quickness -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg:50(36)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(39)
Level 28: Lucky -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(40), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg:50(40)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(40)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 35: Evasion -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(42)
Level 38: Elude -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg:50(42), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 41: One Thousand Cuts -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Arm-Acc/Rchg:50(45), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Arm-Dam%:50(45)
Level 44: Char -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(46), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(48)
Level 47: Fire Blast -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Apc-Acc/Rchg:50(48), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), Apc-Dam%:50(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(15), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(17)
Level 50: Nerve Core Paragon
------------

 

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[Hyperstrike]

And a DB/Invuln in a similar vein.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- Hct-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(3), Hct-Acc/Rchg:50(3), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Hct-Dam%:50(5)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(7), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(7), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(9), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(11)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg:50(11), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(13), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit:50(15)
Level 4: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(19), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(21), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- Prv-Absorb%:30(A)
Level 8: Blinding Feint -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(25), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(27)
Level 10: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(27), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(29), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(29)
Level 12: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 14: Tough -- Ags-ResDam:50(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(31), Ags-Psi/Status:50(31)
Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(31), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33)
Level 18: Vengeful Slice -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(34), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit:50(36)
Level 20: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(36)
Level 22: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(36), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(37), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(37)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(37)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(40)
Level 28: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(40), Ksm-ToHit+:30(42)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(42)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(43)
Level 38: One Thousand Cuts -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Arm-Acc/Rchg:50(43), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Arm-Dam%:50(45)
Level 41: Char -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(46), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(48)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Apc-Acc/Rchg:50(48), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), Apc-Dam%:50(50)
Level 47: Super Speed -- Clr-Stlth:50(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(17), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(19)
Level 50: Nerve Core Paragon
------------

 

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[WindDemon21]

On 7/30/2019 at 9:41 AM, BrandX said:

It takes a lot to get to BF > AS > SS > AS > Repeat for best ST DPS of DB.  BF > Attack Vitals > Repeat is good ST DPS that has a cone in it, that does AV soloing without the need for Incarnate abilities.

 

Even if you do miss an attack in the BF > AV chain, you're going to be doing good dps.  You're just not going to get the combo part (well except for BF aspect) to go off, for the additional damage.

 

No different than missing an attack in any other chain, you lose the damage from missing.  Why anyone thinks it's worse because of the combo system, is just in their heads.

Or just ignore the combos anyway, since at least on the tanker i'm playing the combo system is bugged, and after you get the first one  off, the powers will randomly light up with the orange ring,then when you use nimble slice, nothing lights up. I even have nothing with an orange circle, used ablating strike, and then ablating strike lit up...