Steampunkette Posted March 4, 2021 Posted March 4, 2021 Random thought: You get more opportunity per-shot from Cone Attacks. Sonic has 3 different cone abilities that all do decent damage as a Sentinel. A Sonic Sentinel could easily fire off 2 cone attacks and go from 0 Opportunity to 100 opportunity in the cast time of those two abilities. Plus the Sonic -Res stacks with the -Res from Opportunity -and- Vulnerability. Why aren't Sonic Sentinels more popular?
oldskool Posted March 4, 2021 Posted March 4, 2021 20 minutes ago, Steampunkette said: You get more opportunity per-shot from Cone Attacks. Sonic has 3 different cone abilities that all do decent damage as a Sentinel. The first part isn't true for all primaries. The second part is true for Sonic. All 3 cones behave this way, and it seems like a bug. Flamethrower in Assault Rifle does this too. Furthermore, these powers also double dip on Defensive Opportunity making it better than it is on any other primary (not worth building around, imo). Sonic's cones also break some targeting rules like how Water Blast does. On top of all that Screech does decent damage. The Sentinel version of Sonic blast is pretty good. 26 minutes ago, Steampunkette said: Why aren't Sonic Sentinels more popular? Probably has a lot to do with: "Blaaaargh" "Raaaaagh" "Hooooooooooow" 1 2
Steampunkette Posted March 5, 2021 Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) 22 hours ago, oldskool said: The first part isn't true for all primaries. The second part is true for Sonic. All 3 cones behave this way, and it seems like a bug. Flamethrower in Assault Rifle does this too. Furthermore, these powers also double dip on Defensive Opportunity making it better than it is on any other primary (not worth building around, imo). Sonic's cones also break some targeting rules like how Water Blast does. On top of all that Screech does decent damage. The Sentinel version of Sonic blast is pretty good. Probably has a lot to do with: "Blaaaargh" "Raaaaagh" "Hooooooooooow" CoH Modder has a great Banshee scream mod! It makes it sound -much- cooler. I'm looking at making a Sonic built around -Res procs in a few choice powers. So it'd be 5% Sentinel debuff, 9% Sonic debuff (per hit for like 6 seconds?), The -20% Proc debuff (I think it's 3 per minute per enhancement... could be wrong), and then a whopping 20% unresistable from Vulnerability very quickly. That seems like a really good way to improve your team's damage and push a little past the Sentinel's damage cap issues... Edited March 5, 2021 by Steampunkette
oldskool Posted March 5, 2021 Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steampunkette said: CoH Modder has a great Banshee scream mod! It makes it sound -much- cooler. I'm looking at making a Sonic built around -Res procs in a few choice powers. So it'd be 5% Sentinel debuff, 9% Sonic debuff (per hit for like 6 seconds?), The -20% Proc debuff (I think it's 3 per minute per enhancement... could be wrong), and then a whopping 25% from Vulnerability very quickly. That seems like a really good way to improve your team's damage and push a little past the Sentinel's damage cap issues... Its certainly a good concept. Some of the numbers are off though. Sentinel's Opportunity is 20% for 15 seconds on a single target and this stacks with the 5% that is applied on all hits (that's where the 25% comes from). The wording of vulnerability in the game isn't great. The Sonic attacks with resistance debuff are 9.6% so that's accurate. The 3 PPM proc you're referencing is likely the Annihilation AoE set proc. That's 12.5%. Sonic Blast cannot slot Achilles' Heel which is 20% (Nothing stopping you from taking Weaken Resolve in Force of Will which can take that proc). However, Dreadful wail *can* take the Fury of the Gladiator Proc which is -20%. You may be referring to that proc, but it wasn't clear. Sonic Blast isn't super hot at boosting its own personal DPS through damage proc abuse, but it can contribute as a force multiplier. It is still decent at that while also offering a substantially better version of Screech. This means when helping out on an AV you can still run the same kind of max debuff chain but this time your Screech actually does more than tickle. One way to approach this is to pair Sonic with Super Reflexes. SR would let you soft-cap defense and gain some recharge. You could use the single target attacks to stack Thunderstrikes or Decimation or whatever other set bonus you want. These attacks aren't great for procs as there are so few options. However, that isn't the case for AoE powers. You could run Annihilation, Bombardment, Positron's Blast, etc. and also use that to help punch past the Sentinel's damage cap. The damage procs take advantage of the lower resistance too. This is an opposite approach to how I normally build, but it could be pretty effective with what you're gunning for. Edit, Heck, I may even try this myself. I've been trying to find inspiration to breathe life back into my original Sonic/Sonic Corr back from before the snap. I've made a few Sonic/* Sentinels and nothing really clicked for me, yet. Maybe I will revisit my Sonic/Energy Aura idea. I felt some of the effects of that looked like sound waves. Edited March 5, 2021 by oldskool 1
Steampunkette Posted March 5, 2021 Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) So far I've been playing Sonic/SR, yeah. I also have a build set up for it that I'll link, below. I did correct the 25%-20% thing but not before you replied! Looking at all the debuffing levels of the different classes... Sonic are the -worst- at Debuffing. That 9.6% is much lower than Defender 20% or even Stalker/Brute/Blaster's 13%. I sincerely wish they'd give Sentinels higher Buff/Debuff values, since it'd make them better at playing around with Pool Powers and powersets that have debuffing effects. Anywho. Here's the build. This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn Click this DataLink to open the build! Absynth: Level 50 Technology SentinelPrimary Power Set: Sonic AttackSecondary Power Set: Super ReflexesPower Pool: FightingPower Pool: Leadership Hero Profile:Level 1: Shriek Level 1: Sprint ------------Set Bonus Totals: (A) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge (3) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic) (7) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance (7) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge Level 1: Focused Fighting (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance (3) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge (5) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (5) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 2: Scream (A) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage (34) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Damage/RechargeTime (34) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime (37) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance (37) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime (50) Superior Sentinel's Ward - RechargeTime/Chance for +Absorb Level 4: Howl (A) Artillery - Damage/Endurance (9) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage (29) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge (29) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage (31) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff (31) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy) Level 6: Shout (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage (25) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance (25) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge (27) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic) (27) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge (48) Decimation - Chance of Build Up Level 8: Focused Senses (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed (9) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (11) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge (11) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance Level 10: Agile (A) Serendipity - Defense/Endurance (13) Serendipity - Defense/Recharge (13) Serendipity - Endurance/Recharge (15) Serendipity - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (15) Serendipity - Defense Level 12: Master Brawler (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge (50) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge (50) Numina's Convalesence - Heal Level 14: Shockwave (A) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff (17) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage (17) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge/Endurance (19) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge (19) Bombardment - Damage (48) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy) Level 16: Enduring (A) Endurance Modification IO (39) Endurance Modification IO Level 18: Sirens Song (A) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge (21) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy) (33) Bombardment - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge/Endurance (33) Bombardment - Chance for Fire Damage (33) Bombardment - Damage (34) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff Level 20: Dodge (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (21) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 22: Amplify (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance (36) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge Level 24: Kick (A) Empty Level 26: Screech (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge (40) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge (40) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance (43) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative) (43) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic) Level 28: Quickness (A) Run Speed IO Level 30: Tough (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All) (31) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3% Level 32: Dreadful Wail (A) Superior Opportunity Strikes - RechargeTime/Chance for Opportunity (45) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime (45) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance (45) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime (46) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage (46) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff Level 35: Evasion (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance (36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge (36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (37) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 38: Weave (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (40) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 41: Maneuvers (A) Serendipity - Defense/Endurance (42) Serendipity - Defense/Recharge (42) Serendipity - Defense (42) Serendipity - Defense/Endurance/Recharge (43) Serendipity - Endurance Level 44: Assault (A) Endurance Reduction IO (48) Endurance Reduction IO Level 47: Tactics (A) Endurance Reduction IO Level 49: Vengeance (A) Defense Buff IO Level 1: Brawl (A) Empty Level 1: Opportunity (A) Empty Level 2: Rest (A) Empty Level 2: Swift (A) Empty Level 2: Health (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance Level 2: Hurdle (A) Empty Level 2: Stamina (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End------------ 4% DamageBuff(Smashing) 4% DamageBuff(Lethal) 4% DamageBuff(Fire) 4% DamageBuff(Cold) 4% DamageBuff(Energy) 4% DamageBuff(Negative) 4% DamageBuff(Toxic) 4% DamageBuff(Psionic) 8.5% Defense(Smashing) 8.5% Defense(Lethal) 7.25% Defense(Fire) 7.25% Defense(Cold) 15.38% Defense(Energy) 15.38% Defense(Negative) 6% Defense(Psionic) 11% Defense(Melee) 10.69% Defense(Ranged) 8.5% Defense(AoE) 3.6% Max End 30% Enhancement(Range) 80% Enhancement(Accuracy) 57.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime) 7.5% SpeedFlying 167.2 HP (13.87%) HitPoints 7.5% JumpHeight 7.5% SpeedJumping MezResist(Confused) 7.5% MezResist(Held) 7.5% MezResist(Immobilized) 7.5% MezResist(Sleep) 7.5% MezResist(Stunned) 7.5% MezResist(Terrorized) 7.5% MezResist(Teleport) 100% (20% chance) 6% (0.1 End/sec) Recovery 78% (3.92 HP/sec) Regeneration 4.5% Resistance(Smashing) 4.5% Resistance(Lethal) 7.5% SpeedRunning Edited March 5, 2021 by Steampunkette 1
Underfyre Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 Sonic Blast gives up damage to be a damage multiplier for the whole team/league. It's a lower tier power set for sure, but it's not as bad as Psychic Blast, and like I said, it increases the groups damage as well. But I wouldn't say it's by a staggering amount. An optimized rotation will be Shout - Screech - Mind Probe - Dominate. Or alternately Howl (with Annihilation) - Screech - Mind Probe - Dominate. So you're only debuffing by 19.6% (or 31.7% with Howl) more than any other set would be innately capable of. But take it from me, playing a min/maxed character isn't nearly as fun as a well themed character with a rad costume behind it. Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet Sentinel Builds, fifth post down
Hjarki Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 11 hours ago, oldskool said: Sonic Blast isn't super hot at boosting its own personal DPS through damage proc abuse, but it can contribute as a force multiplier. It is still decent at that while also offering a substantially better version of Screech. This means when helping out on an AV you can still run the same kind of max debuff chain but this time your Screech actually does more than tickle. A sequence of Scream -> Shout -> Screech -> Mind Probe deals (69.74 + 112 + 120.5 + 110.9) / (1.848 + 2.904 + 1.716 + 1.32) = 53.05 dps with 9.6 * (7+10+12) / (1.848 + 2.904 + 1.716 + 1.32) = 35.75% -resist for 72.01 dps. Contrast this with Charged Bolts -> Zapping Bolt -> Charged Bolts -> Tesla Cage at (52.83*2 + 103.5 + 120.5) / (1.188*3 + 2.376) = 55.50 dps, plus another 8.22 dps from the Sentinel. 1
Underfyre Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, Hjarki said: A sequence of Scream -> Shout -> Screech -> Mind Probe deals (69.74 + 112 + 120.5 + 110.9) / (1.848 + 2.904 + 1.716 + 1.32) = 53.05 dps with 9.6 * (7+10+12) / (1.848 + 2.904 + 1.716 + 1.32) = 35.75% -resist for 72.01 dps. Contrast this with Charged Bolts -> Zapping Bolt -> Charged Bolts -> Tesla Cage at (52.83*2 + 103.5 + 120.5) / (1.188*3 + 2.376) = 55.50 dps, plus another 8.22 dps from the Sentinel. So how is all of that stuff slotted? Why using a sub-optimal rotation for both sets? That's the base damage of Tesla Cage. Who is running that without 4 procs at a minimum, if not 6 procs? There's a reason I've spent over a year on my spreadsheet, sir. Going off of base numbers isn't showing the whole picture of what a set is capable of. Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet Sentinel Builds, fifth post down
Hjarki Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, underfyre said: So how is all of that stuff slotted? It's not slotted because it's not designed to be an ideal build, but to give a sense of scale. 1
Underfyre Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 Well you're comparing a top tier set against a bottom tier set based off their base values with rotations that can't even maintain without recharge being slotted. Suffice it to say your comparison is lacking in big picture. Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet Sentinel Builds, fifth post down
Hjarki Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, underfyre said: Well you're comparing a top tier set against a bottom tier set based off their base values with rotations that can't even maintain without recharge being slotted. Suffice it to say your comparison is lacking in big picture. The "big picture" requires complex assumptions that lack consensus. What that comparison should showcase is that 'top tier' set isn't actually all that far ahead of the 'bottom tier' set. The only place Electrical has a slotting advantage is with Tesla Cage. Everywhere else, Sonic is getting far better return on the procs both can slot. 1
Underfyre Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 Just now, Hjarki said: What that comparison should showcase is that 'top tier' set isn't actually all that far ahead of the 'bottom tier' set. That comparison in base damage is what took us from a class that was supposed to do Scrapper level damage to ...Sentinels. Maybe you should be one of the programmers that made this AT. Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet Sentinel Builds, fifth post down
Hjarki Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 1 minute ago, underfyre said: That comparison in base damage is what took us from a class that was supposed to do Scrapper level damage to ...Sentinels. Maybe you should be one of the programmers that made this AT. I'm not entirely sure why you're harassing me over what was an entirely legitimate comparison between the basic performance of two sets. Do you have an actual point to make? 2
Underfyre Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 Because implying that base performance somehow shows that one set is superior to another is misleading at best. 1 Sentinel DPS Spreadsheet Sentinel Builds, fifth post down
Habanada Posted March 21, 2021 Posted March 21, 2021 (edited) I have read through this thread several times now and have enjoyed and studied the reviews...and am amazed at all this collective knowledge. Good work everyone. Edited April 11, 2021 by Habanada Remove unneeded text 2
Mack008 Posted April 6, 2021 Posted April 6, 2021 I might have missed it, but is there a review of the Epic Pools?
oldskool Posted April 7, 2021 Posted April 7, 2021 15 hours ago, Mack008 said: I might have missed it, but is there a review of the Epic Pools? Not in this sticky, and not in a sense that I *think* you may be asking. However, there are a number of older threads about the value of the Epic/Patron pools in this sub forum. I'll summarize as best I can and just reduce that clutter into this thread through... 1) Most of the pool choices allow for some kind of movement control (e.g., AoE Immobilize, slows, etc.) with the exception of Psi Mastery which has Mass Hypnosis (useful on some Task Forces). 2) Not all melee attacks are created equal, but they generally are good to have if you can fit them into your build. 3) Not all of the holds are created equal either, but they too can be good depending on build. 4) All of the Epics have some utility power baked in late into the selection. These include Darkest Night, Warmth, and Link Minds to name a few. The value of these varies wildly by pool and by build. A running theme here is you should not look at these optional powers (and they really are optional) in a vacuum. The only exception to this is Psychic Mastery. Psychic Mastery is the undisputed king of Sentinel Epic choices due to proc abuse and innate design of two powers (Mind Probe and Dominate). Those two powers slotted for aggressive play (i.e., procs in Dominate) can eclipse an entire primary's selection of powers. They are that good when slotted in a very specific way. Then, on top of this, you gain access to Link Minds which is another +defense (and +to-hit) source which can be made permanent with enough recharge. The other two powers offered in this pool do not matter in the Min-Max realm though procs in Psychic Shockwave are another option. Dark Mastery, Fire Mastery, and Electrical Mastery offer some competitive options on damage too. Powers like Smite, Cremate, and Havoc Punch are really solid melee attacks. The AoE options of Dark and Fire can be rather strong too (Electric is a bit of a gimmick without the Immobilize). Ninja Tool Mastery is a quirky. The Caltrops variant (Tashibishi) can be fantastic if you like that power. It forces movement from the enemy and when they run (slowly... while taking minor damage) they aren't attacking you. It can be a useful tool to relieve pressure if you get swarmed in melee. This is effective if you're not going for the hover-blaster style of play and it creates space. The range you have as a Sentinel isn't a hinderance when being in close quarters. This actually utilizes that to your advantage as you shoot enemies in the back. There are a lot of AoE immobilize options that unlock at level 35. That's a really nice advantage that Sentinels have that no other ranged AT gets. These are Controller-style powers that can stop movement of multiple targets at once as long as the power hits (these have accuracy penalties - keep that in mind). This can work really well with rain-style powers which also force movement (Rain of Fire, pretty much all of Ice Blast, Whirlpool, etc.). You do not need to go deep into these choices to find value. On almost every Sentinel I make I pick 1 forced movement power. That is either Caltrops or an immobilize that meets the theme of my character (so Ice Blast gets Ice Mastery for that immobilize). I only go really deep into Psychic Mastery on one character and it is to min-max that Sentinel. However, the abuse used in slotting here will likely get fixed at some point (the Homecoming devs are going to do something about procs). So I'd keep that in mind to enjoy whatever you come up with now and understand this is likely to change. 2
Snarky Posted June 26, 2021 Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) Any way you can clean up this thread so that you just get the reviews and not have to scroll through a dozen pages desperately looking for the poweer set someone said is reviewed here somewhere? i have wasted four runs through this whole thread looking for the second review of dark blast the 1st page says is here. the reviews. priceless. the organization. wait, there is organization? Edited June 26, 2021 by Snarky
Sunsette Posted June 27, 2021 Author Posted June 27, 2021 On 6/27/2021 at 12:05 AM, Snarky said: Any way you can clean up this thread so that you just get the reviews and not have to scroll through a dozen pages desperately looking for the poweer set someone said is reviewed here somewhere? i have wasted four runs through this whole thread looking for the second review of dark blast the 1st page says is here. the reviews. priceless. the organization. wait, there is organization? I've got some time today. I'll get on that. 1 Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
Sunsette Posted June 28, 2021 Author Posted June 28, 2021 Thread has been updated. Big thanks to all the hard work from @drbuzzard @underfyre @oldskool and the other contributors. 2 Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
Snarky Posted June 28, 2021 Posted June 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Sunsette said: Thread has been updated. Big thanks to all the hard work from @drbuzzard @underfyre @oldskool and the other contributors. Am i missing something? Because i have to hunt through every post to find the write up scrolling page after page. I still cannot find ine the guide says was done
Sunsette Posted June 28, 2021 Author Posted June 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, Snarky said: Am i missing something? Because i have to hunt through every post to find the write up scrolling page after page. I still cannot find ine the guide says was done Next to each name on the sign-up sheet there's a link [X] However, in light of your question, that is kind of a hacky format that could be more user friendly. I'm AFK right now, but I'll try to fix it up with a better UX tomorrow. 1 Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
Snarky Posted June 28, 2021 Posted June 28, 2021 51 minutes ago, Sunsette said: Next to each name on the sign-up sheet there's a link [X] However, in light of your question, that is kind of a hacky format that could be more user friendly. I'm AFK right now, but I'll try to fix it up with a better UX tomorrow. Ooooh. Okay. That works but i did not realize what the X means. And the review i was looking for has no X so i assume it was not completed. Thank you. maybe just a sentence at the top explaing the link for us clueless folks. 🙂 1
drbuzzard Posted June 28, 2021 Posted June 28, 2021 Actually I really should go back and clean up my posts in here. With more research I realize that a lot of them are pure bunk, and I've redone basically all the described builds. 2
Sunsette Posted June 28, 2021 Author Posted June 28, 2021 8 hours ago, drbuzzard said: Actually I really should go back and clean up my posts in here. With more research I realize that a lot of them are pure bunk, and I've redone basically all the described builds. My current projects are blasters; another sentinel is prob. #3 or 4 on the list, once I can figure a primary or secondary I haven't done before. Water/Ice seems likely. Sundered Marches: The Website | The Official Soundtrack! | The Campaign Setting!
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