Make the early game fun: Remove TOs/DOs.

[Some Random User]

6 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

The one thing that I've not seen mentioned, at least I did not see anything going through the thread, is that removing TOs and replacing them with DOs or worse, SOs would require the complete re-balance of lower level enemies and missions. Seems like a lot of work (for the devs) for very little gain (for the players).

I would like to suggest that Notoriety is already a part of balance. There are tons of balance concerns. I've never understood why we can't take higher level Missions if we want them as well, and the level range for Contacts makes no sense, either. This is inherently a larger conversation about how hard/easy the game is. We need to discuss those issues, but Notoriety gives us flexibility. Let's focus on making the toons we want how we want, because that's what makes the game awesome. We can fix the rest to fit the toons.

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I believe there is an important distinction to be made here - changing something just for the sake of changing it I think everyone would agree is not a good idea or wanted or necessary.  Changing something old and out-of-date  - regardless if it still works or not - to improve it and make it better/more appealing is entirely different.

 

"Freshening up" old content is not something alien to MMOs.  Here is just one example from Neverwinter.  Cryptic is always doing something to refresh older content to bring it up to current quality and to alter the story/systems as the game has progressed.  In fact, they are updating old "patrol" mission content in the next update to STO.

 

I don't see any game doing this at all being a bad thing.  Leaving old-useless things in an already old game makes it even more stale IMO.

I agree with this Shardwarrior...As I said, I am not opposed to change at all...

 

But I'd rather see more content in the lower levels to make it interesting, not more tools to help you speed past it (DFB/DiB accomplish that nicely already)...

[Some Random User]

@justicebeliever

 

So to be clear, I was correct, you were wrong, you ran a web search, you saw I was correct, you linked the proof I was correct, you then said I was wrong and tried to quote the section supporting me back at me, then pretended you were correct.

 

This is the same thing you were doing in the locked thread to try to screw with the conversation, right up until you started accusing those who disagreed with you of being like Andy Kauffman. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Some Random User]

On 8/7/2019 at 2:16 PM, kenlon said:

The biggest problem with the early game in CoH, and the biggest reason that people want to powerlevel past it as fast as possible, is that playing before you get SO level bonuses *sucks balls*. (Yes, I know that most people are using IOs, not SOs, but the principle applies. Having a limited selection of powers and a small number of slots in them is limiting enough, without having enhancements that do almost nothing for you. If we could slot in SOs right from the start, then doing mission arcs or radio missions would actually be a fun alternative to running DFB over and over again to get to 22.

 

Thoughts?

I (in general) agree that something should be done. I'd like to suggest there's a very different possible answer. The reason we can't fix Enhancements has more to do with how big the bonus to Damage and Accuracy is. Instead, what if we made the size of the bonuses to things like Range and Slow bigger? Couldn't we make that noticeable enough to matter?

[Jimmy]

I agree with the identified problem here but I think the proposed solution is a little blunt. The different categories of enhancements are important for progression imo, but currently the early-game usage of enhancement is just... frustrating on many levels. The path forwards shouldn't just be to tear it up, though, we should look into ways of refining the system.

[Some Random User]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

I agree with the identified problem here but I think the proposed solution is a little blunt. The different categories of enhancements are important for progression imo, but currently the early-game usage of enhancement is just... frustrating on many levels. The path forwards shouldn't just be to tear it up, though, we should look into ways of refining the system.

This is good news. Any thoughts on what is and isn't practical to apply?

[Jimmy]

I've certainly got some ideas on how I'd like to approach it, but as with everything else it's going to be a team decision and a team effort. We've been too busy to really discuss this as a team as of yet - as you can imagine we've had far bigger fish to fry - so it's just on the long list of things to eventually look at.

[_NOPE_]

Soon™

[justicebeliever]

14 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

@justicebeliever

 

So to be clear, I was correct, you were wrong, you ran a web search, you saw I was correct, you linked the proof I was correct, you then said I was wrong and tried to quote the section supporting me back at me, then pretended you were correct.

 

This is the same thing you were doing in the locked thread to try to screw with the conversation, right up until you started accusing those who disagreed with you of being like Andy Kauffman. Welcome to my ignore list.

Knock yourself out...

 

I never said you were wrong...that’s why I copied the text.  I had said it was unethical to deceive a patient unless it was part of an experiment, and I was correct.  I’ll always admit when I am wrong, and I was wrong about it getting you to lose your license (which I mentioned in my post).

 

As for the other thread you mention...you actually never commented on anything I said, so I have assumed when there is a legitimate point made that you disagree with you just ignore it as well.  

 

As for Andy Kaufman, are talking about this post?  The one that is neither authored nor liked by me?

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by justicebeliever
Changing excitement to experiment

[Moonshades]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I believe there is an important distinction to be made here - changing something just for the sake of changing it I think everyone would agree is not a good idea or wanted or necessary.  Changing something old and out-of-date  - regardless if it still works or not - to improve it and make it better/more appealing is entirely different.

 

It has never been the M.O. Of The City dev team, whether Cryptic, Paragon or Homecoming take content out of the game. When new zones with new content came out  such as the Hollows or Croatoa, issue 0 content wasn't taken out, newer content was put in along side of the old. Same for enhancements. New options to gain better enhancements exist already and you can choose to use them, or not. If not, then you can slot TOs or run naked until you can get the enhancement you want.

[Some Random User]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

I've certainly got some ideas on how I'd like to approach it, but as with everything else it's going to be a team decision and a team effort. We've been too busy to really discuss this as a team as of yet - as you can imagine we've had far bigger fish to fry - so it's just on the long list of things to eventually look at.

Sounds reasonable. Please, do elaborate. Those internal conversations are opaque to me. Is there somewhere (not Discord) where we can learn more? We have every reason to be interested in what's on the agenda and the radar for the future. We may be able to offer our own skills, and may have unique helpful perspectives.

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Some Random User said:

Sounds reasonable. Please, do elaborate. Those internal conversations are opaque to me. Is there somewhere (not Discord) where we can learn more? We have every reason to be interested in what's on the agenda and the radar for the future. We may be able to offer our own skills, and may have unique helpful perspectives.

From Jimmy’s message it sounds like they haven’t had internal discussions yet.  They aren’t opaque (but aren’t internal discussions by definition opaque to outsiders?), they don’t exist.

[Some Random User]

5 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

New options to gain better enhancements exist already and you can choose to use them, or not. If not, then you can slot TOs or run naked until you can get the enhancement you want.

If the % bonus is small enough to not care, maybe we need low-level-but-matter procs? Like adding a Blind or something? Maybe make them turn off at level 20 like Prestige Enhancements? Make them only work on Minions? Other ideas certainly exist.

[Moonshades]

53 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

If the % bonus is small enough to not care, maybe we need low-level-but-matter procs? Like adding a Blind or something? Maybe make them turn off at level 20 like Prestige Enhancements? Make them only work on Minions? Other ideas certainly exist.

The essence of my point was that I don't think there's anything wrong with the early game that needs to be fixed, certainly not giving players I win buttons with SOs and proc firing powers at level 3. At some point someone has to ask how easy is too easy?

[justicebeliever]

32 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

The essence of my point was that I don't think there's anything wrong with the early game that needs to be fixed, certainly not giving players I win buttons with SOs and proc firing powers at level 3. At some point someone has to ask how easy is too easy?

I wouldn't mind an overhaul of the lower level enhancements if it came with some reworking of the lower level content to make it more engaging and in the case of Paragon City, more challenging...

 

But I don't see a need to make the all lower level enhancements better by themselves, since all it will do is speed people faster through the lower level content, and there are already ways to do that.

 

That said, I'm not opposed to more DO/SO drops, because it makes the rewards to do the lower level content more enticing...

[Weylin]

tbh, between having very few slots, and weak enhancements, I didn't even bother using any until dual orgins started showing up

[Shadowsleuth]

18 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

I like most of this.  I'm all in favor of making DO's and SO's more accessible to lower level players...

• Let's allow DO's to drop starting at lvl 5 (enhancement lvl, not security level) to anyone for completing a mission
• Let's allow SO's to drop starting at lvl 5 to anyone completing a story arc
• Let's allow you to purchase SO's at any level from a merit vendor (currently you can only get them at lvl 25)

This is a great idea & would encourage people to run missions instead of endless DFBs.

 

I also would like to see Mr. Yin's special enhancement selection expanded it so you have a choice of Accuracy, Damage, End Reduction, & Recharge available for all origins.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mr._Yin

 

 

And add a similar unlockable contact store with the same special enhancements redside as well.

[Razia]

If anything I find the whole TO/DO and then SO/IO thing confusing for new players. I tend to just ignore the TO and DOs. Plus I noticed that new players sometimes don't get the whole Origin thing. It had some impact on the game back in the days but it's pretty pointless now. Saw someone in LFG: "Magic Tank LFT".... made me laugh.

[krj12]

I think the identified problem is that no one wants to do the lower level content, hence they speed through it with DFB or whatever.

Not sure providing SOs will really solve the issue.

 

The reason I speed through said content is as follows:

1.   The content is boring and unimaginative.   A little better than the old "Kill X" rats in fantasy MMOs, but not by much.

2.   It's annoying having only 1 or 2 attacks.  You spend most of your time waiting for powers to recharge.

3.   There is only one starter zone, making you replay the same content over and over.

4.   They nerfed the drop rate for enhancements significantly when IOs were introduced to the game.

 

Possible solutions:

 

1 and 3)  Provide more starter zones, and IMO more zones across the board for all levels.   ( which is why I thought it was a bad idea to remove Galaxy City zone)

Provide more quest lines and more content.  Rewrite some of the old content, way too many arcs where you feel like you're repeating the same mission over and over.

 

2)   We already have several temp powers which can fill that role, such as Nemesis staff and the Dark Wand, Sands of Mu, etc.    But it wouldn't be a bad idea to let the player start out with 2

attacks from his primary power set instead of just 1.

 

4)  Put the drop rate back where it was.  Never understood the rationale for this, unless they were worried players wouldn't use the new sets and felt they had to force the issue.

 

Low level SOs really wont solve anything.  If that was done, the next thing would be people complaining those aren't powerful enough, and only having IO sets.

[Jimmy]

13 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

From Jimmy’s message it sounds like they haven’t had internal discussions yet.  They aren’t opaque (but aren’t internal discussions by definition opaque to outsiders?), they don’t exist.

This is correct 🙂

[GM Capocollo]

14 hours ago, Some Random User said:

Those internal conversations are opaque to me.

That is why they're internal.  The devs/admins need to decide whether it's something worth pursuing before they throw open the gates to wider feedback; there's no point in getting people involved before there's even a ground plan established.

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by GM Capocollo

[Auroxis]

To expand on the Attune concept, I suggest this:

 

Training Origin Enhancements will basically be Attuned IO's with a max level of 10.

 

Dual Origin Enhancements will basically be Attuned IO's with a max level of 20.

 

This keeps SO's relevant since they're more powerful, DO's become a "safety net" of sorts if you overlevel, and TO's are brought back to relevancy while staying true to their purpose.

[Some Random User]

14 hours ago, Jimmy said:

so it's just on the long list of things to eventually look at.

19 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

The devs/admins need to decide whether it's something worth pursuing before they throw open the gates to wider feedback; there's no point in getting people involved before there's even a ground plan established.

To word that more clearly, we don't know what the roadmap is. How much in general has actually been discussed? What are the priorities? Does the staff handle things catch-as-catch-can or is there some sense of where things are going?

[Some Random User]

14 hours ago, Jimmy said:

The different categories of enhancements are important for progression imo, but currently the early-game usage of enhancement is just... frustrating on many levels. The path forwards shouldn't just be to tear it up, though, we should look into ways of refining the system.

Is there a reason not to reward the use of D.O.s by making them drop Attuned? This would compensate for their weaker effect by making them retain usefulness.

[GM Capocollo]

There is a particular critical matter that has to be resolved first before anyone can commit to any long-term plans.  In the meantime, the current priority's on backend stability, since that's the foundation for everything else that will come afterwards.  Major QOL improvements to the early leveling experience are a ways down the path yet, as I understand it.

Edited August 9, 2019 by GM Capocollo