Focused Feedback: Snipes and Dominator changes

[Tariq]

• Ice bolt: Recharge increased from 4 seconds to 5 seconds. Damage increased from 52.9 to 61.3 damage.
• Ice Sword: Recharge increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds. Damage increased from 95.8 to 114.5 damage.
• Ice Slash: Recharge increased from 10 to 20 seconds. Damage increased from 114.5 to 207.8 damage.

 

Okay, so... I'm actually interested in knowing why. I'm also not sure if this qualifies as a nerf or a buff. I have an /Ice Dom,  and I THINK this means I get to do similar DPS while having more time to use my Controls, which might make it a buff, but I'd like clarification from someone more experienced.

[Thezanman]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

The one dominator I've felt like I actually enjoy is the only one you guys are intent on nerfing.  Which is fine, but I have to ask: what's the thought process on this change?  Is this bringing it in-line with other Dominator t2s?  Being a t2 ST attack, this is already a hard sell for power pick.  Giving it a faster-than-I'll-ever-need recharge and lowering damage isn't going to do it any favors.

It deserved the nerf. It's currently the highest DPA power out of all the Assault powers except for fast snipes, seismic smash, and blaze, and like you said it's a T2 attack. 90 DPA is pretty ridiculous for a T2, even a melee.

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

It deserved the nerf. It's currently the highest DPA power out of all the Assault powers except for fast snipes, seismic smash, and blaze, and like you said it's a T2 attack. 90 DPA is pretty ridiculous for a T2, even a melee.

Thanks.  I clearly need to start giving it more love (and enhancement slots) on Live before this hits...

[Thezanman]

1 minute ago, Tariq said:

• Ice bolt: Recharge increased from 4 seconds to 5 seconds. Damage increased from 52.9 to 61.3 damage.
• Ice Sword: Recharge increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds. Damage increased from 95.8 to 114.5 damage.
• Ice Slash: Recharge increased from 10 to 20 seconds. Damage increased from 114.5 to 207.8 damage.

 

Okay, so... I'm actually interested in knowing why. I'm also not sure if this qualifies as a nerf or a buff. I have an /Ice Dom,  and I THINK this means I get to do similar DPS while having more time to use my Controls, which might make it a buff, but I'd like clarification from someone more experienced.

If you have perma-hasten levels of recharge, which is fairly standard, these changes are pretty much straight buffs, especially for the lower cooldown powers. Because the cooldowns are so low, with large amounts of +recharge speed you would be overlapping cooldowns a lot in your attack chain, which means that these changes will increase your damage without messing up your attack chains.

[Lazarillo]

3 hours ago, Leandro said:

Spinning Kick: Target cap reduced to 5, same as all other melee cones. This power was also doing Single Target damage despite it being a cone. This has been fixed and damage has been lowered.

I'm a little curious on this one.  As I recall it (granted, it's been 7 years), Spinning Kick getting extra damage despite cone status was due to it being a "facing" cone, rather than a targeted one, and, for that, working differently from essentially every other cone in the game.  This is also the reason the target cap was much higher.  And in its current form, the jankiness of its aim (pretty much always missing anything that's at an incline to your character, particularly), and the fact that unlike other melee attacks, it can't be used on-the-move, it feels like it needs...something.  Martial in general is already disappointingly weak in melee, IMO, especially given it's named after a melee set!  If it's gotta be one or the other, in Spinning Kick's case, keep the damage, and just turn it into a pure tier-2 ST attack, perhaps?

Edited August 11, 2019 by Lazarillo

[Tariq]

14 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

If you have perma-hasten levels of recharge, which is fairly standard, these changes are pretty much straight buffs, especially for the lower cooldown powers. Because the cooldowns are so low, with large amounts of +recharge speed you would be overlapping cooldowns a lot in your attack chain, which means that these changes will increase your damage without messing up your attack chains.

Even with the 20-second Ice Slash?

[Vanden]

I tried out the new Total Focus for Doms, I was afraid it'd look silly but it's fine. I like it. The only problem is the "whoosh" sound is synched with the normal, slow animation. Any chance a new one could be made that syncs with the new one?

 

Edit: BUG! Power Burst in Energy Assault plays no sound on activation.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Vanden

[lobster]

First off:  Could we get separate threads for the dominator and snipe changes please?  These are significantly different things and the discussion is already getting muddled.

 

Second, having just spent a bunch of time deep diving into dominator secondaries...I have opinions! 😉
 

• For those of you wondering about the recharge time+damage changes: these are all straight buffs, 100%.  Dominators run obscene levels of recharge and have very little use for quick recharging, low damage powers. 
  • Earth: I don't think earth need any buffs, but I'll happily take them - and the cast time reduction during tremor is likely going to be pretty noticable.  One area that I wouldn't mind earth getting a buff on is the other signature piece (beyond single target damage) of the set: mud pots.  Boosting the aoe SIZE a bit would be nice.  The PB change is also significant.
  • Energy : not much to see here, minor buffs.  TF shortening will make for smoother chains...but I do love that animation, so we'll see how it feels going that much faster.
  • Icy: Solid buffs, but same comment as above with respect to earth : the signature move of icy is chilling embrace, which has a radius of ten, getting that buffed to 15 or 20 would be great.  Adding a -dmg component or something to that effect would help as well.
  • Psionic : These will mostly be negligible to me, as when I play /psi I am not using either of these powers much (I don't slot the first attack on most doms) - generally on /psi you want to keep monsters clustered together so the KB from TK thrust is not ideal.  However, I do use it sometimes as a 0-slotted 100% control power, so this will greatly increase it's functionality in that role.
  • Rad : buffs to an already great set.  However...these changes make dblow identical to seismic smash and contaminated identical to stone mallet.  The set is now basically a slightly higher damage (due to the dot/contamination) /earth with -def debuffs and a snipe instead of an aura.  I would like the set to have more than that to distinguish it.  It needs a core unique power to build an identity around, which seems to so far be lacking.  I forget, did the game every get knock-to (pull things toward you) physics?  Maybe adding a pbaoe knock-to to atom smasher or radiation siphon?  Just something that screams THIS SET IS UNIQUE..
  • Savage : seems OK.  Nothing crazy.  Will have to see how the unkindness change plays out, as right now it doesn't fit very well into the attack chain.  Giving it a much wider arc (60+?) and shortening the range (if necessary) might help here, as this is a set that likes to be in melee.
  • Martial : I thought the cone thing must have been intentional, glad to see it's not and they are cleaning up oddities like that.  Trick shot is crazy good.  I think this set should be renamed to 'Shuriken Assault" or someting, as it's NOT a good melee set as the word "martial" seems to suggest (aside from using your ranged attacks in melee range, which most dominators do) in the sense that the melee powers are both weak.   However, it's a solid set all around and has 3 unique pieces: the special build-up (which makes the snipe even better), caltrops, and Trick shot.  
  • Thorny : I don't think Skewer needed to be made a faster attack (see above), as these aren't great for dominators.  However, I've been skipping this attack on planned builds, and that will get even more relevant with the faster impale!  The impale/barrage buffs are quality.

 

 

tl;dnr: Great changes, but buff chilling embrace & mud pots and give rad a signature power and an identity.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by lobster

[Thezanman]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

I'm a little curious on this one.  As I recall it (granted, it's been 7 years), Spinning Kick getting extra damage despite cone status was due to it being a "facing" cone, rather than a targeted one, and, for that, working differently from essentially every other cone in the game.  This is also the reason the target cap was much higher.  And in its current form, the jankiness of its aim (pretty much always missing anything that's at an incline to your character, particularly), and the fact that unlike other melee attacks, it can't be used on-the-move, it feels like it needs...something.  Martial in general is already disappointingly weak in melee, IMO, especially given it's named after a melee set!  If it's gotta be one or the other, in Spinning Kick's case, keep the damage, and just turn it into a pure tier-2 ST attack, perhaps?

Weak in melee? It has by far the best PBAoE, T2 melee, and melee cone out of all the assault sets. There's no reason to treat Spinning Kick any differently from other cones; in fact it's generally easier to actually hit multiple targets with it due to the fact that you can precisely aim it to cover all of the mobs rather than being restricted by having to target it on an enemy. Either way, the target cap change is mostly for consistency as the small cone would rarely hit more than 5 targets anyway, and the damage change is completely fair. You shouldn't be able to hit 5 targets with single target damage (barring special powerset mechanics), regardless of how the cone works.

[Thezanman]

51 minutes ago, lobster said:

NOT a good melee set as the word "martial" seems to suggest (aside from using your ranged attacks in melee range, which most dominators do) in the sense that the melee powers are both weak.

Again, martial assault is by far the best assault set in terms of melee. Thunder Kick, Spinning Kick, and Dragon's Tail all have the best DPA out of their respective categories.

[Tater Todd]

I agree that Chilling Embrace should have some kind of -Damage component in there since that power alone turns your Dominator into a Frozen Aggro magnet.  I know you can use your primary and eventual Epic Pool for mitigation but all too often the -Recharge in Chilling Embrace it's not enough.

 

Thank you for the changes btw!  I can't wait until I get on Beta to test things out!

[Waypoint]

5 hours ago, Leandro said:

 

• Earth Assault
  • Power Boost is now Power Up. (90s recharge, +34% damage, +75% str to other effects for 10 seconds.)
  • Stone Spears: Cast time reduced from 2.10 seconds to 1.00 second.
  • Tremor: Cast time reduced from 3.30 to 2.50 seconds.
  •  Hurl Boulder: Cast time reduced from 2.50 seconds to 1.50 second. Recharge increased from 8 seconds to 12 seconds. Damage increased from 86.64 to 120.5 damage.
  •  Heavy Mallet: Recharge increased from 12 to 14 seconds. Damage increased from 133.1 to 151.8 damage.

When standing right next to the target, Hurl Boulder does damage before the boulder is even lifted over the model's head.

 

5 hours ago, Leandro said:

Energy Assault

• Power Boost is now Power Up. (90s recharge, +34% damage, +75% str to other effects for 10 seconds.)
• Total Focus: Cast time shortened from 3.30 to 2.50 seconds.
• Power Burst: Cast time shortened from 2.00 to 1.67 seconds.

Damage comes in from Power Burst before the target gets hit from about 15-20m away. It's only like, less than a second but it could be something.

[Thezanman]

16 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

...as long as you're in range before firing.  And the enemies aren't moving.  And you don't have them slightly above or below you.

Spinning Kick might be nice in a controlled environment or a farm, but it's pretty lousy in an active environment.  Given that Martial Assault doesn't have a T2 Melee ability if its damage is brought down with nothing to compensate, I see no reason not to just make it into one, rather than just nerfing an already dubious power outright.

Thunder Kick is ridiculously good right now and the nerf is entirely warranted. Even after the change, it has about 75 DPA which makes it on par with if not better than the other T2 melees. And yes, Spinning Kick takes some getting used to the range, but that is no reason it should be stronger than anything else. It doesn't matter if the enemies are moving since targets are determined at the start of the cast, not the end (this is how all AoEs work), and I have personally played a /martial Dominator and never once ran into a situation where the enemies were too far above or below me to hit. Maybe if they're literally flying on top of you, but at that point no melee cone would be able to hit them and other enemies at the same time.

[Thezanman]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Thunder Kick having better DPA than other melees is kinda unimpressive when Martial Assault doesn't have much reason to stay in melee range anyway.  And Spinning Kick is more than "getting used to the range".  If enemies aren't lined up with it exactly when it's activated (and yes, it only matters where they are when activated, but good luck getting them in the right place in that instant) then you're burning end for nothing.  I've got a /Martial Dominator myself, and while I took the power for the theme factor, it doesn't change the fact that even with an Ice/ primary, where I'm getting in people's faces a lot, it's not worth using, especially because yes, if an enemy's even slightly above or below you, it just flat out doesn't affect them.

 

I'm not saying it can't be fixed, but why straight-up nerf a power that already has no effect other than "-8 Endurance to self" half the time?

I have a very hard time believing you've ever played a /martial dominator, at least seriously. I have never managed to hit zero enemies with Spinning Kick, and frequently hit 3-5 very easily. What makes you think that Martial Assault doesn't have a reason to stay in melee range, exactly? It has three very good low cooldown melee powers, compared to other sets which generally have 3-4 melee powers, some of which aren't worth using.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Thezanman

[Novacat]

Good changes overall. The old quick/slow snipes weren't that well executed anyways. Self-contained rather than dependent on a specific, arcane pool-power and IO combination most of the time? Incomparable. And these slow versions are stronger too.

[Arkterusss]

Interesting, shorter cast times on a few powers that share the "total focus" animation.  Curiously, Thunderstrike was left out.

 

Any plans on letting Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers/Tankers get the benefit of faster cast times on these powers later on?

[Thezanman]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

My /Martial Dominator was my second 50 character on HC, who's mostly been dropped because I didn't make her to be a Shuriken character, but that's mostly all MA has to offer.  Spinning Kick only hits multiple enemies when you spend several seconds lining it up perfectly and that's, again, even assuming circumstances allow for it.  There's no reason for MA to use melee because 2 of its 3 close range powers are AoEs with small ranges, one (the Spinning Kick we're discussing) being so tiny that it frequently hits nothing.

 

Make Spinning Kick into a melee AoE with the adapted damage that can hit multiple targets, or make it a single target attack with its current damage, but make it able to hit things before nerfing a power that doesn't even work most of the time.  That's all I'm saying, and I don't think it's too unreasonable.

It's a 9 radius 90 degree cone, which is incredible compared to the 7 radius 50 degree cones that are standard for most melee powersets. And guess what? Those melee cones are still used. They aren't meant to hit entire crowds, hence the 5 target cap. If you seriously think that you need multiple seconds to hit even two targets with Spinning Kick, you're either bad or lying. Not to even mention the fact that you called Dragon's Tail a "small range" AoE. It has a 15 radius, which is standard for Assault PBAoEs, and almost twice as large as melee PBAoEs, which usually have 8 radius.

[kajmir]

8 hours ago, Leandro said:

Added a new PVP IO Snipe set "Experienced Marksman"; includes proc that will always turn your Snipes into the fast version.

Where do we find this set at? I've checked the Merit Vendor for it and it's not listed under the PVP IO recipes so far. (Also, I scanned through here for a discussion on this topic and if someone posted this same question, I'm sorry I missed it.)

[Thezanman]

13 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Yeah, you caught me.  I am a super bad.  Apologies for existing even in your shadow.  I guess this is a pointless argument anyway.  This power is already useless.  Doesn't really matter if it's nerfed when it wasn't worth using in the first place.

You can ignore the melee attacks if you want, I'll just be here doing more damage in a wider area with the powers that are still incredible even after being nerfed.

[HelenCarnate]

57 minutes ago, Arkterusss said:

Interesting, shorter cast times on a few powers that share the "total focus" animation.  Curiously, Thunderstrike was left out.

 

Any plans on letting Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers/Tankers get the benefit of faster cast times on these powers later on?

Hell yes please. Energy Melee needs some love and Impale is way too slow currently for spines.  Several ranged attacks from the epic/patron pools have better DPA making it a power that is often skipped. 

[AlwaysAPrice]

I've only got one concern about the snipe changes, which is to recommend their endurance cost be lower when fast sniping. Something that became apparent really quickly on my corruptor when I first rebuilt them for fast snipes is that having a snipe in your normal attack chain is brutal on your endurance, which might come as a nasty surprise to everyone who'll now have their snipe ready for instant fire from the moment they pick it up (admittedly it won't be a huge impact until they've slotted up their recharge). If the end cost can be scaled to match the damage changes, that might be more forgiving.

[Gulbasaur]

12 hours ago, Replacement said:

Current insta-snipe changes were never live.  Nothing says they belong

They seem to be based entirely off the i22 changes to stalker's assassin's strike, which is basically a melee snipe, so it's not like there is no precedent.

 

[JPax]

15 hours ago, Selenne said:

Im kinda curious but why nerf blasters when its the brutes which are stupidly and horrendously overpowered and you see them farming maps day in day out? Wouldnt have been wiser to focus on that first?

They're not nerfed? If you were gearing for instant snipe before, you're going to be doing exactly the same as now. All this change does is mean that people who can't reach 22% tohit buff right now, that is to say any blaster that doesn't have a persistent +tohit buff from a source in their secondary, will be able to use quick snipe at all times, making it a regular part of their rotation regardless of set choices, even from the lowest level that they can get it. This is generally a quality of life buff for ranged damage.

 

 

Even with 3 tohit buff slotted Tactics and Karma + Accuracy - your blaster is STILL going to be at 21.85% ToHit buff, 0.15% away from instant snipe currently. Now they're always going to be at instant snipe, and nearly at the maximum damage for it if built that way. Straight buff for solo for builds in general.

Edited August 12, 2019 by JPax

[JPax]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:58 PM, Tariq said:

• Ice bolt: Recharge increased from 4 seconds to 5 seconds. Damage increased from 52.9 to 61.3 damage.
• Ice Sword: Recharge increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds. Damage increased from 95.8 to 114.5 damage.
• Ice Slash: Recharge increased from 10 to 20 seconds. Damage increased from 114.5 to 207.8 damage.

 

Okay, so... I'm actually interested in knowing why. I'm also not sure if this qualifies as a nerf or a buff. I have an /Ice Dom,  and I THINK this means I get to do similar DPS while having more time to use my Controls, which might make it a buff, but I'd like clarification from someone more experienced.

It's a buff. Considering the game later on becomes more reliant on damage per activation time, a straight buff to damage is an increase to that. I mean, you chain powers together, so you're not concerned about recharge until you reach a gap in your chain.

Edited August 13, 2019 by JPax

[nihilii]

The Power Boost -> Power up change is indeed odd, but it's pretty nice to see doms keeping their longer recharge higher damage snipes. Thanks for hearing us out 🙂