When you think someone is playing their AT "wrong" ...

[Zepp]

It is definitely possible to play any AT poorly. It is not, however, possible to play an AT wrong. Sure, if you are playing a petless MM, tell your team ahead of time. Some less open-minded teams may reject you, but petless MMs know that when they roll their toons. Tankers without taunt, if they know what they are doing, can still hold aggro better than a Brute with taunt.

 

In most cases, it is not socially productive to do anything more than offer one or two suggestions and leave it at that. Most people are open to learning (to a degree).

 

The only time you should be dropping someone from the team is if they are playing in a way that is detrimental to the team and will not cease when it is pointed out. This usually involves players who do not know how to play well on a team with KB.

[jubakumbi]

19 hours ago, Zepp said:

The only time you should be dropping someone from the team is if they are playing in a way that is detrimental to the team and will not cease when it is pointed out. This usually involves players who do not know how to play well on a team with KB.

I disagree.

KB is a part of the game, if you don't like it, leave the team.

KB hate is BS.

The 'herding' mentality hurts this game more than anything like knockback, this incessant need to use a formula for each and every spawn is the real evil, IMO.

Edited September 2, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[golstat2003]

21 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I disagree.

KB is a part of the game, if you don't like it, leave the team.

KB hate is BS.

The 'herding' mentality hurts this game more than anything like knockback, this incessant need to use a formula for each and every spawn is the real evil, IMO.

In all the time I"ve been back since around late April/May I have never seen anyone talk about herding at all. I've seen it done once, but it was just something that sprang up naturally. Also haven't seen folks complain about KB as much as on live. Maybe I've just been lucky to get on really chill teams.

 

Also I've never seen anyone complain about KB on incarnate teams.

 

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

In all the time I"ve been back since around late April/May I have never seen anyone talk about herding at all. I've seen it done once, but it was just something that sprang up naturally. Also haven't seen folks complain about KB as much as on live. Maybe I've just been lucky to get on really chill teams.

 

Also I've never seen anyone complain about KB on incarnate teams.

 

TBH, like so many of the complaints, I pretty much only see the KB whining and 'play my way' on the forums, not in-game.

The issue for me is that the 'typical player base' reads the forums and assumes from that reading the general nature of the community.

Therefore, if I see people complain about how others choose to play the game, especially with a feature like KB, a fundamental part of the game and comics, then I speak out, because I will not watch KB take crap from players without saying something.

 

IME, as soon as someone is complaining about KB, the next thing they are concerned about is herding well for the AOEs to function perfectly so the xp/minute ratio stays where they want it....

 

I am here to play a game, not maximize slot machine profits like a job.

I just leave teams that have players who choose to play in a way that irritates me.

 

If I see someone complain about KB or any other game feature, in-game or out, then I will speak out, and I will advocate that person leaves the team or learns to play the 'whole game', rather than restricting other players form using normal, fun, in-game features.

 

If someone wants to play on a server w/o KB, for example, they can go make one, IMO.

[HelenCarnate]

Had a stalker rage quit a Synapse because of all the mobs flying everywhere and running away.  We had no trollers or doms and the team was a Battle Axe Brute, Stalker and everyone else was either a Blaster or Corruptor.  Rain of Fire, Ice Storm and Whirlpool going off everywhere causing mobs to scatter, albeit slowly but the main beef was all the knockback.  2 of us were Water and against clockwork knockback is magnified so our Water Burst AoE sent mobs flying.  2 groups into the first mission he started complaining.  We tried explaining that not using powers that would cause mobs to scatter or be knocked back would leave us with only single target attacks and the TF would take forever if that is all we used and that he was free to move ahead to the next group while we mopped up and AS the boss which would help make things faster.  He complained that it was already going to take 2 hours and with all our KB it would take even longer then quit because he didn't have the time.  We kept on going and an hour later we were done and this was while clearing a path through the missions instead of just skipping to bosses.

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

I disagree.

KB is a part of the game, if you don't like it, leave the team.

KB hate is BS.

The 'herding' mentality hurts this game more than anything like knockback, this incessant need to use a formula for each and every spawn is the real evil, IMO.

I agree. KB is part of the game, but it also requires some strategy. Many players use it well, and many of the players that complain about it are just wrong. However, it is possible to use it poorly.

[Obitus]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

In all the time I"ve been back since around late April/May I have never seen anyone talk about herding at all. I've seen it done once, but it was just something that sprang up naturally. Also haven't seen folks complain about KB as much as on live. Maybe I've just been lucky to get on really chill teams.

 

Also I've never seen anyone complain about KB on incarnate teams.

 

Yeah, herding effectively died with the introduction of the aggro cap - leaving aside a few niche scenarios (e.g. small spawns that are close together on a low-level map).  I'm sure there are still people who talk about it in teams, but they're usually mistaken.  I'm sure there are also people who complain about KB, but I've only seen that complaint once in game, IIRC.

 

That said, there's KB and then there's KB.  Most people are willing to accept that KB is part of the game, even a fun part, but if you make absolutely zero effort to moderate or direct your KB in a sensible way, then you will annoy teammates, even if they're too polite to say anything. 

 

Someone posted an anecdote earlier about a (IIRC) Storm/Energy Defender fully slotted for KB; sorry, but that's a pretty good example of playing "wrong," at least for teaming purposes.  I could see rolling a toon like that for funsies, but if I did, I'd have a hard time accepting team invites in good conscience.  It's basically a troll build.  In that case, if the guy legitimately didn't understand why his build would anger teammates, you'd be doing him a favor by gently giving him some pointers.

 

As always, the number one rule is simply to be considerate.  If you make a good faith effort to do that, then no one has any basis to criticize you.  COH is a very forgiving game.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Obitus

[mousestalker]

As a kin/ defender I tend to not like knock back. Seeing your target get knocked across the room and denying your team the buff or heal can be frustrating. My other characters are more accepting.

 

Of course there was the one team where the stormie was bragging about how he had the enhancements slotted that converted knock back to knock up. I carefully avoided any close contact with him.

[honoraryorange]

On 9/2/2019 at 7:56 AM, jubakumbi said:

I disagree.

KB is a part of the game, if you don't like it, leave the team.

KB hate is BS.

The 'herding' mentality hurts this game more than anything like knockback, this incessant need to use a formula for each and every spawn is the real evil, IMO.

Nope. Kick the one scattering stuff everywhere with all their bad manners. Problem solved 🙂 

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, honoraryorange said:

Nope. Kick the one scattering stuff everywhere with all their bad manners. Problem solved 🙂 

Nope.

TALK to the guy scattering stuff everywhere - explain that while that's an awesome form of mitigation when he's solo, it's really irritating to the melee and AoE guys, and could he please try and aim for walls, and corners, and so forth, in order to still knock the badguys on their backsides, without causing problems for those Melee and AoE types.

Then, if he persists in just scattering stuff willy-nilly ... yeah, kick his ass off the team.

But, give him the chance to say "OH, I didn't think of that", and at least try to modify how heuses that KB, beforehand.  🙂

Edited September 4, 2019 by PaxArcana

[jubakumbi]

11 hours ago, honoraryorange said:

Nope. Kick the one scattering stuff everywhere with all their bad manners. Problem solved 🙂 

"Bad Manners"?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Wait, did someone roll Betty Bowers? Judith Martin? 

 

Thanks, I needed a good morning laugh!

[Xeres]

Ah the KB thing.  IMO if you KB, just do it smartly.  Don't KB that mob into another group.  Have it go into a not-too-far-away wall or something.  Do that in my group, no problem.  But if your group is going to be pretty strict about these things then I probably don't want to be in your group anyway.  And, TBH, I'm a pretty good teammate.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Xeres

[MunkiLord]

I was on my Dom a few days ago and one of the teammates was a very aggressive Energy/Energy Blaster that liked leading off with either Energy Torrent or Nova with all the KB intact. So I thought of it like a competition to see who could get to the mobs first, him to KB them all into oblivion, or me to mass immobilize them. It was a ton of fun. Sometimes he won, sometimes I did. When we timed it right, it was beautiful. When the timing was off, I'd hit them with the immobilize right after he landed his attacks so they were all scattered and couldn't move. It was awesome. 

 

Also I died a couple times trying to beat the Blaster. Would do again.

[justicebeliever]

7 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I was on my Dom a few days ago and one of the teammates was a very aggressive Energy/Energy Blaster that liked leading off with either Energy Torrent or Nova with all the KB intact. So I thought of it like a competition to see who could get to the mobs first, him to KB them all into oblivion, or me to mass immobilize them. It was a ton of fun. Sometimes he won, sometimes I did. When we timed it right, it was beautiful. When the timing was off, I'd hit them with the immobilize right after he landed his attacks so they were all scattered and couldn't move. It was awesome. 

 

Also I died a couple times trying to beat the Blaster. Would do again.

You are not seriously suggestion in something as somber and sobering as a Superhero themed MMORPG that FUN triumphs over DPS?

 

Talked about a skewed perspective....

 

😋

[jubakumbi]

44 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I was on my Dom a few days ago and one of the teammates was a very aggressive Energy/Energy Blaster that liked leading off with either Energy Torrent or Nova with all the KB intact. So I thought of it like a competition to see who could get to the mobs first, him to KB them all into oblivion, or me to mass immobilize them. It was a ton of fun. Sometimes he won, sometimes I did. When we timed it right, it was beautiful. When the timing was off, I'd hit them with the immobilize right after he landed his attacks so they were all scattered and couldn't move. It was awesome. 

 

Also I died a couple times trying to beat the Blaster. Would do again.

Sounds Glorious!

The more I read, the more I think I need to play my Ill/Storm controller more...

[Greeno34]

If i'm being honest, i really couldn't care less about how someone on my teams/leagues chooses to build or play their character.  

 

I'll often get /tells when i'm forming an itrial saying "do you want me to get my *x character*?"  My response is always the same....Play what's fun for you!!  That's what the game is for.

 

Now if someone is  purposely griefing, then that's a different story. (ie...someone killing cameras in TPN even after being told repeatedly not to)

[ShardWarrior]

Interesting points of view here.  I'm curious about the suggestions that those with KB should adjust their style of play to fit everyone else, but everyone else should not adjust?  Personally, if I'm tanking or scrapping and NPCs get knocked away, it doesn't bother me.  I know they'll be back for more.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Greeno34 said:

If i'm being honest, i really couldn't care less about how someone on my teams/leagues chooses to build or play their character.  

 

I'll often get /tells when i'm forming an itrial saying "do you want me to get my *x character*?"  My response is always the same....Play what's fun for you!!  That's what the game is for.

This is my outlook.

Just Play.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Interesting points of view here.  I'm curious about the suggestions that those with KB should adjust their style of play to fit everyone else, but everyone else should not adjust?  Personally, if I'm tanking or scrapping and NPCs get knocked away, it doesn't bother me.  I know they'll be back for more.

The way I see it, not all character powers mesh perfectly for maximum XP/minute...and that's when the game gets FUN...IMO...and the FUNs/second increases...

Some people still play MMOs like they are on an assembly line that demands maximum production...

[Greeno34]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Interesting points of view here.  I'm curious about the suggestions that those with KB should adjust their style of play to fit everyone else, but everyone else should not adjust?  Personally, if I'm tanking or scrapping and NPCs get knocked away, it doesn't bother me.  I know they'll be back for more.

While it does bother me, I just react like you said and wait for them to come back while I switch targets to someone that is still near me. 🙂

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 9/1/2019 at 5:28 AM, Malclave said:

I think my favorite accusation of playing "wrong" was someone upset about my character name as it related to my powerset. It was funny enough I still remember it.

 

Character was a mind/ empathy controller. I wanted a pure support character, which my D&D group called "cheerleaders" because they sit on the sidelines and watch while the action takes place. So, I made the character a high school cheerleader in her costume and bio and called her "Spirit Girl".

 

Got a blind invite to a group, no questions about my powers, and we set off. I did my "cheering"... sleeps, holds, and healing, letting the jocks in the group show off their muscles (i.e., I left damage dealing to the damage dealers). I thought we were doing fine, and everybody got to show off what they did best. Then I got kicked from the group.

 

Apparently, according to the group leader, I was not only playing wrong but being outright deceitful by having a name with "Spirit" in it when I wasn't an Illusion controller.

I go out of my way to tell teammates that Doctor Moist is a PhD, not an MD.

[Obitus]

34 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Interesting points of view here.  I'm curious about the suggestions that those with KB should adjust their style of play to fit everyone else, but everyone else should not adjust?  Personally, if I'm tanking or scrapping and NPCs get knocked away, it doesn't bother me.  I know they'll be back for more.

You should adjust up to a point, because a single heavy KB toon can disrupt pretty much everything the other seven team members do.  It isn't just "herders" or melee characters who have cause to be annoyed; it's anyone who relies on AoE damage, controls, or debuffs.  In some cases, the team actually needs those AoEs to survive.

 

No reasonable person would suggest that you should be walking around constantly on tenterhooks; just be a little considerate.  These days, we have Sudden Acceleration procs, so if you wanna spam otherwise disruptive powers indiscriminately, you have an option to do that in an unobtrusive fashion.  (That proc is a game changer for non-Controller Storm builds.)

 

Munkilord told a fun story about a heavy KB toon, and that's great.  But I think most people would say that a heavy KB player shouldn't assume that every team he joins is looking for that sort of experience.  Take it slow, feel out your teammates.  If someone on the team has an AoE immobilize that cancels KB, then you might coordinate.  (Munkilord might've felt differently if he were playing Mind, Grav or Electric Control.) 

 

Almost everything is a matter of degree; if your idea of "fun" is to slow the team to a crawl and possibly endanger your teammates, and if you get off on annoying people in that fashion, then you're being selfish and impolite.  On the other hand, if your teammates simply cannot abide any perceived slowdown whatsoever, then they're taking the game too seriously.  I don't think you'll find either of those two extremes often in game, though.  IME, most people are pretty laid back.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Obitus

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Obitus said:

You should adjust up to a point, because a single heavy KB toon can disrupt pretty much everything the other seven team members do.  It isn't just "herders" or melee characters who have cause to be annoyed; it's anyone who relies on AoE damage, controls, or debuffs.  In some cases, the team actually needs those AoEs to survive.

And those people can't adapt?  Just wait a second or two for whatever survived the initial KB assault to get back up.

[jubakumbi]

5 minutes ago, Obitus said:

... and if you get off on annoying people in that fashion, then you're being selfish and impolite.  On the other hand, if your teammates simply cannot abide any perceived slowdown whatsoever, then they're taking the game too seriously.  I don't think you'll find either of those two extremes often in game, though.  IME, most people are pretty laid back.

It has aways been hilarious to me that people take KB as some sort of personal insult and that the KBer must be a troll as opposed to just having fun.

KB is a part of the game.

 

This was more of an issue on Live in-game IIRC, I have already had a few discussions early on in-game on HC, nothing lately.

 

I totaly agree that in-game it is never an issue for me, mostly because I solo pr play with a RL buddy to avoind the useless drama MMOs bring in PUGs.

Your description of degrees and extremes is spot-on.

[Obitus]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

And those people can't adapt?  Just wait a second or two for whatever survived the initial KB assault to get back up.

Again, I'm talking about wanton, heavy, AoE knockback.  If your team relies on, say, a Controller to nullify the alpha strike from huge spawns, then having the spawn scattered the four winds before he gets a chance is extremely disruptive.  Or if your team relies on spike AoE damage.  Or if your team relies on AoE debuffs.

 

As always in these sorts of threads, I believe we're largely talking past each other.  Personally, I've never been bothered by single-target knockback in almost any form.  I've rarely been bothered by AoE knockback either.  As I say, most people in game are pretty laid back and polite.

 

But it seems like one camp in this thread reads any call for KB toons not to be wantonly disruptive as an assault on their sacred playstyle.  And it seems like the other camp reads any pro-KB posts as a defense of actively trolling all teammates.  We're down to the willful distortion phase of the debate.