Hyperstrike

Yep. And the last iteration of Rage on live was acknowledged to have a bug that allowed one to cheat the Defense crash. That, like the lag valley in the ITF and the inevitable crashing of Tyrant's personal mission have since been FIXED.

And assuming that someone disagreeing with you is somehow oppressing you and "shouting you down" is what those who can't actually support their arguments do when backed into a corner.

Yes. 10 WHOLE seconds. The activation length of 2, maybe 3 powers if recharge is beefy enough. And yes, I understand comparative percentages. And you're still treating the Defense Crash as if it means you're AUTOMATICALLY going to be hit or something. You first! It was meant to highlight the argumentative style being used. Nonsensical questions are framed. And when they're ignored, "well, you can't answer that so I must be right!". Pfft. Follow Up requires you to actually hit your enemy. This isn't always guaranteed. Rage has no such limitation. So I'd check my OWN bum before accusing others of talking out theirs. Ah. And the assumption that YOUR opinion is that of "the silent majority". I will assume no such thing. And unless the devs are going to basically do away with the "Cottage Rule" (and fixing the Defense Crash in no way violated it), I don't really see you getting what you want.

The fact is that, as the devs left it, the defense crash was SUPPOSED to be an UNAVOIDABLE part of the power. They simply hadn't gotten around to correcting it. It's been corrected. Not everyone likes it. Life goes on.

I know all that +ToHit in Rage looks good. If you're running double-stacked Rage, you're fine. Two Recharge IOs will do ya. Move a slot from Maneuvers to Tough Skin. You gain more Defense from it. I dismantled Rage down to help you cap your S/L Resist. Sorry, ANY optimized Inv tank running LESS than 90% S/L Resist Is Doing It Wrong. This may just be my personal opinion but. I also moved the +Def uniques earlier in the build and added the "Scaling Resist" unique in there too. Also, grab yourself some Enhancement Boosters. +1 all your Defense and Defense/End enhancements. This will get you to 45% on E/N Defense. Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Britainnia: Level 50 Magic Brute Primary Power Set: Super Strength Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery Villain Profile: Level 1: Punch -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech:50(3), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End:50(3), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech:50(5), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech:50(5), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(7) Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(46) Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(11), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(11), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(13), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(46) Level 4: Haymaker -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg:50(17), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(17), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury:50(21) Level 6: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(21), Pnc-Heal/Rchg:50(23) Level 8: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(27), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(27) Level 10: Resist Elements -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(29), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(29), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31) Level 12: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A) Level 14: Kick -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Mk'Bit-Dam%:50(33) Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(34), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34) Level 18: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(36) Level 20: Resist Energies -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(36), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(36), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37) Level 22: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(37), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(37), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(46) Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(39), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(39) Level 26: Hover -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(40), Rct-ResDam%:50(50) Level 28: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(40), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(40) Level 30: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A) Level 32: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(43) Level 35: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(43), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(45) Level 38: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(45) Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(45) Level 44: Superior Conditioning -- PrfShf-End%:50(A) Level 47: Laser Beam Eyes -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(50), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(50) Level 49: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+:30(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Fury Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A) Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(13), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(15) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(15) Level 50: Agility Core Paragon Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement Level 50: Diamagnetic Radial Flawless Interface Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment ------------ | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | 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Another possibility is a cheaper "traveling" build. Where attacks and armor are given back seat to absolute mobility (Flight, super-speed, teleportation, etc)

OPINION. How long is a piece of string? Well! Since you can't seem to answer THAT simple question! Rage IS okay the way it is. There is a penalty for having perma-build-up. Who knew? And by "fix" you mean "change". Your sole argument for "fixing" it is "Well *I* don't like it! Well. *I* have no problem with Rage as it is now. A bug has been fixed that allowed you to cheat around one of Rage's weak points. Deal. The crash is non-trivial. But it is by NO means unmanageable. Your argument against this is "I don't WANT TO manage it!" Again, I say "Deal!" Changing it to work like Build Up/Aim would require management as well. Because, Rage is only broken according TO YOU. And yes, fixing it WOULD impact me. Because it would either reintroduce a bug or it would seriously change the set. Respectfully, politely, humbly, NO! Rage doesn't "require insps" to function normally. You just object to "normal" function and won't listen to any strategies meant to alleviate the downsides of normal function. Not sure what else to tell you.

Then do the research and come up with the actual math. As we know what opinions are like, and that everyone has one.

Now I only joined the game in 2008. But it did NOT work like that in 2008 or at any point after that. It was a damage crash and a defense crash that, because of the bug, was avoidable by stacking Rage.

No offense. But turning off minimal logging is "unwise". As has been noted, you've now made it so that all moderation is nothing but arbitrary fudging by admins and mods over dueling hearsay. IP addresses are ephemeral enough in most cases as to be meaningless outside of a very short term. And a chat log would do some euro-censor no good. Especially if the server isn't being run from the EU.

I already view Punch and Kick as essentially wastes of a power pick. I'm also not a huge fan of Cross Punch. I just find the need to essentially select BOTH useless pre-reqs to get it wasteful.

We had about 16 of the 23 expected show. Fun was had by all. Service, busy as it was, was excellent. Hope to do it again next year.

The thing is, CoH has a history of being extremely friendly to casual play. There were multitudinous incidents of people leaving the game for weeks, months, even years sometimes, playing a bunch of other things, then coming back to CoH. So, if you're gonna go off and fiddle with another game for a while? Cool. We'll still be here when you get back!

Here's my stab at it. Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Brute Primary Power Set: Martial Arts Secondary Power Set: Willpower Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Concealment Villain Profile: Level 1: Storm Kick -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech(46), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(48), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(48), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(48), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(50) Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(5) Level 2: Cobra Strike -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), GldStr-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(45), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46) Level 4: Mind Over Body -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(9), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(11), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), GldArm-3defTpProc(13) Level 6: Fast Healing -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(13), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(15), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(17) Level 8: Crane Kick -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(42), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury(42), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Hct-Acc/Rchg(43), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(43) Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(17), LucoftheG-Def(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(19) Level 12: Focus Chi -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21) Level 14: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A) Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(23), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(23), Pnc-Heal(25) Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(25), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(29) Level 20: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(31) Level 22: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33) Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(33), LucoftheG-Def(33) Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(36) Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(36), LucoftheG-Def(37) Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(37), LucoftheG-Def(37) Level 32: Eagles Claw -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(40), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(40) Level 35: Resurgence -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 38: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(40), LucoftheG-Def(42) Level 41: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 44: Stealth -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(50), Rct-ResDam%(50) Level 47: Invisibility -- Rct-Def/EndRdx(A) Level 49: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Clr-Stlth(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Fury Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(7), Mrc-Rcvry+(7) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(9) Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface ------------ | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1472;680;1360;HEX;| |78DA6594CB6E125118C7CF81A1140A058416907B6F5C6A91AAFB466D6BD49274A54| |B82ED48C74C80CCE0A54B17EEB56ADC7869BD6C7D02171AA32FE04AEDCD07686BE2| |03E0E77C7FA09109931FE77FBEEBB94CF9DEBCE7FDA5FB73420E5DD4ABA659B960D| |C6EA98E72B5A6ADD8053D4E7A23965829ABBAAA16CB55A3A555F5CA79A365867962| |5EBDA9D64DB5785DD3F566E3AE6A08EF72A3A11717B5DA5A4BABD73CD66849AD366| 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Very not-bad for a Fighting-less build!

You've compromised your Defenses for that giant flipping gob of Psi Resist. Still. If you find yourself fighting Carnies and the like, rock it! Your attacks aren't QUITE as well slotted as I'd choose.

Why so surprised? I'm one of the guys running Catalyst Game Labs (BattleTech, Shadowrun, etc).

Even including Boxing and Brawl, you're still going to have lots of trouble killing high level enemies that attack chain.

GenCon Meet and Greet Rock Bottom Brewery: Indianapolis Saturday, August 3rd 7:00 PM I had 15 responents. Bringing a total of 24 people. Reservation is under the name "Borner" (aka ME). See you guys there!

Okay. We know what you've lost. But what do you GAIN out of this build? You're no tougher than another Inv Brute running Rage. And you're taking longer to kill stuff because you hit less often (mathematically) and are doing less damage.

On an end build, this is feasible. However, depending on how it's build, one could be sacrificing a bit of Defense in the name of more Recharge.

KheldKhooties

*Sticks Christopher Robin halfway into a hole...*

Here's a DP/WP build just to give you an idea. Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Sentinel Primary Power Set: Dual Pistols Secondary Power Set: Willpower Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Leadership Hero Profile: Level 1: Dual Wield -- SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSntWar-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprSntWar-Rchg/+Absorb(7) Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(11) Level 2: Empty Clips -- SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprOppStr-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprOppStr-Rchg/+Opportunity(15) Level 4: Mind Over Body -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(19), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(21), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), GldArm-RechRes(23) Level 6: Suppressive Fire -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Apc-Acc/Rchg(25), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Apc-Dam%(27) Level 8: Fast Healing -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(27), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Prv-Heal/Rchg(29), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(31), Prv-Absorb%(31) Level 10: Swap Ammo Level 12: Indomitable Will -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(31), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(33), Rct-ResDam%(33) Level 14: Bullet Rain -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech(33), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(34), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(34), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(36) Level 16: Up to the Challenge -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(36), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(36), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(37), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(37) Level 18: Executioner's Shot -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(37), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(39), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(40) Level 20: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(40) Level 22: Hover -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(40) Level 24: Fly -- Flight-I(A) Level 26: Piercing Rounds -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(43) Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(43) Level 30: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A) Level 32: Hail of Bullets -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46) Level 35: Resurgence -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 38: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I(A) Level 41: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(46), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(48), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48) Level 44: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(48), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50) Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50) Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Mrc-Rcvry+(17) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(19) Level 10: Chemical Ammunition Level 10: Cryo Ammunition Level 10: Incendiary Ammunition Level 50: Agility Core Paragon ------------ | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1495;675;1350;HEX;| |78DA6593CB4F135114C6EFB4532B142805DA426929E56179B4D336B277216AA2903| |49AE8B299C05046C6B6E9D4A84B17FE036EDCF8DCF95E898FFFC1E7CA076F1F892F| |C0C49D9B7A3AE7A385CC4D26BF3BDFB9F77CE7CE9C3B7D71B2E5F1B1CB8784D476D| |8504D33774A2B54F48266B8A6D5BC3E236AC34D4F7847CF9D540B796D56993CAF1A| |B9AC6E568A8619AA0727B539AD606ACA19DD304AC50B5A5978B2C5A2A11C35F4FC7| |CA595E7B5A95EC8B7586F539A5AA217EFCECBAC5636E7F552E848499F511A79D5F2| 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Ah! You've met my mother and/or grandmother!