Galaxy Brain

@Leogunner, Dark melee has a mix of survivability / Great ST damage that allows you to tear down the boss spawns rather well and with great safety, on top of Soul Drain + Buffed Shadow Maul actually letting you do work to a crowd. It overall ended up with pretty consistent results thanks to that.

Yes, there is: Looking at JUST the average run time, Fire is at a comparable gap to other blast sets as TW is to Melee sets. However, it is not "best across the board" like TW is. Fire was the 2nd most dangerous set (only behind Radiation Blast where I died 9 times yikes), and had poor Standard Deviation run to run. All aspects weighed in and: At the "Base" level, Water I feel is better for general use., and you can argue that Water/Fire/Ice are all sort of equally good given their strengths and weaknesses. Its when you eliminate the weaknesses inherit to Fire Blast is where it pulls far ahead. Now, compare this to TW at a base level (Including Knockdown IO's for Claws and Kinetic): TW is a big gap above the set that got an altered T9, just on SO's! If I were to post the numbers without the KD IO's, the gap would be even larger as TW has it all: Bonus Damage, incredible DPA, impeccable safety (in a separate test I pit it against War mace in a n SO only 3v1 boss fight and it could continuously juggle the bosses / let alone boost its own defense and make easy work of multiple bosses at once while War Mace struggled to stay alive). Its not only that it was clearing maps so much faster, but it was doing that on top of the plethora of natural advantages TW has besides raw damage.

Another quick bit while I'm catching up on the thread: So far, HC has not really "nerfed" any powers without compensation, such as Brutes getting a damage cap decrease but being able to generate fury much, MUCH, more effectively. So while certain things may see nerfs, I fully expect there to be adjustments to other areas to make it a smooth change rather than directly negative. Also, balance changes could be in consideration for that future "hard content". If content is hard for a TW/Bio to clear, it'd be downright depressing for a KM/Regen

I actually really like the idea of a powerset with "ammo" granting essentially instant recharge. That said, I do feel like it should have a "reload!" Power somewhere in there that gives you an X second animation to restore ammo on demand, which also happens if you try to use a power while out of ammo. The only thing that gets tricky here to me is when you have multiple powers sharing ammo. Let's take Burst and Slug for example. If both could have instant recharge on demand, you would simply take the better DPA one. Once you add in more powers, the attack chain sort of covers the need for instant recharge (Burst > Buckshot > Sniper > Burst is already recharged naturally... )

@Troo, and well everyone really: This thread I made a while back dove into this from a "general" sense where it appears that in a team setting, AoE's may be sort of suspect. The gist of the 1st half of that OP is this: In both even-level and +4 content, a team of 8 people simply tossing out a single "Random AoE" each is usually enough to wipe all but bosses every time. The caveat being of course that the AoE's line up, hit all the same targets, etc, but the potential is there in theory for where "Basic AoE's", not even nukes, when repeated get the job done spawn to spawn in a big team.

Welp, there goes the meta 😉

So, a note about my test for Blasters is that I did only run it on SO's, and I largely ignored the secondary to try and "isolate" the primary blast set as much as possible. I chose to not rely on the secondary too much as well... blaster secondaries are all somewhat different compared to the Scrapper Test where /WP was sort of a "middle ground" that other armors could compare to and would also not get in the way of their primaries. So, I decided to stick with more or less the basics to see how the Primaries could compare if you put them into essentially a vacuum to be fair as different Pri/Sec could have drastically different results. Another factor here was simply time... say I ran with a few different styles of secondary, I would need to triple the amount of work! +0/x3 was chosen due to it being something that would allow both ST and AoE capabilities to shine a bit more equally throughout the tests while also being sort of the SO baseline anyways. More than x3 would probably favor AoE a bit too much mob to mob, and in my humble opinion the amount of enemies you can amass at a time in the test can equal or exceed the target caps, or at least mirror what you may be taking down in a full 8-man team in any given fight if other players are slapping baddies down alongside you. If say, 3 other damage dealers are blowing up the spawn then I would say it's realistic you wouldn't actually be taking on an "8 man spawn" yourself, if that makes sense? So for a solo run-through of these tests, I chose a difficulty that would give a bit more balanced results. Anyways, speaking of these tests I do want to share data with you all in regards to the melee sets that I have been running using the new Office Map seen in the following threads: Blaster Testing Mastermind Testing The below charts show the data collected from HC Beta for all available Scrapper Primaries in a mission setting designed to emulate what one may see in a Story-Arc mission, with different floors, doors, required Boss take-downs and an Elite Boss encounter that tests AoE and ST capabilities alike as seen in the rules of those linked threads. SO's: SO's with Claws and KM's Ranged Cones slotted with: lvl 50 Dam IO + Overwhelming Dam/KD to still achieve the 95% damage slotting + remove knockback: This second run was done as there were only 2 powers across all the sets that could realistically change with a conversion to Knockdown, that being Claws (Shockwave) and KM (Repulsing Torrent). Unlike with other IO slotting, the ability to use a single Unique IO + lvl 50 generic IO allows you to have the same enhanced stats in the power while simply changing the knockback factor. Both sets improve significantly (KM becomes much less of a "bad" outlier), but even Claws is still a large gap below Titan Weapons here. Now, something new I haven't talked about yet... IO's: +3/x5 runs A new metric was born from my testing in wanting to take it to the next logical step: a mid-level IO build. The build had a few goals in mind: Drop the lowest DPA attack / Worst power in each Set to make room, rely on the "good" powers Each attack has a single damage proc (Either Mako's or Obliteration), and uses a full set (except Claws and KM to remove KB) Global recharge is either 142.5% with hasten up, or 72.5% for 20s while hasten is down Fit in the normal globals (Numina, Kismet, etc) No Purples / Winters / other "super high tier" IO's Example: Mid Level Scrapper IO Its not super-optimized, and lacks certain procs on purpose as it is supposed to rep a sort of "mid level" build that is more for general use / getting a damage proc in there rather than really focusing on what the sets can slot / can synergize with. The difficulty was ramped up when I ran these particular tests up from 0/3 to 3/5 to accurately copy the accuracy discrepancy we see at +0 vs +1 enemies on SO's, though in retrospect running these sets against the same "course" so to speak may be a better comparison, but I digress. Either way, in both the SO and IO (mid) categories we see two things: Most all sets have an avg time spread that more or less neatly flows from one to another There are two major outliers.. 1 being Titan Weapons with a great big gap over the next highest set, and KM on the opposite end below the rest. In a case like this, it is 100% fair to buff Kinetic Melee to fit somewhere in the rest of the pack. But, that still leaves TW as the outlier on the top where it is much better than the other sets. Do we buff ALL the other sets to get as good / nearly as good as TW? Or do we reign the one outlier in back to the pack?

Not sure what to say to that at this point, as if you boil that down then applying literally any power before using another is about as complex if not more so and we have had that since day 1.

EM has the gimmick of a power that drains your own HP

Staff is literally: Run one of 3 toggles that give you a boost as you attack, and then you can spend the boost on one of 2 powers for AoE or ST goodness if you get the max buff. You can use those 2 powers for "free" if you dont have the max buff as well (and they count towards the max buff!), and after spending the buff you can start earning it again. It is incredibly fluid and something you do not have to think about too much, even less so than StJ. Even with max accuracy / hit chance, there is always a 5% chance that you randomly miss, and within a 3-hit combo there are ~2 chances to just drop it for no reason if you don't count the 1st hit missing. That part stinks just sort of in general before you get to a point where you can just start ignoring combos, but as you level and such it can make it a bit akward.

Lets keep this to Force Fields else the mods put a bubble on this thread

they can stay the same in PvP then

@FUBARczar, I know about as much as the priority list as you when it comes to the HC team, but what I do know is that certain sets require more effort than others, and that can definitely change priorities. There are generally two types of changes that occur in either direction when you look across the board: Numerical Change and Mechanical Change. Numerical Change is generally very easy to perform, and in terms of "dev time" can be very effecient. An example of a numerical change would be the Dominator Assault sets getting changes to their animation times / stats which then tweaked performance (1.8s > 1.5s, Recharge went from 8s to 12s to boost the damage per the forumla, etc, etc). Changes such as "lowered damage by X%, changed recharge by Y%, tweaked endurance by Z%" are all numerical changes that are both easy to implement and test, and if a set only needs these I could see them being lumped in with multiple other things at once (such as a new blaster set + other tweaks!) Mechanical Change is the opposite where instead of turning dials, you are adding or replacing the existing dials for the set. An example of this would be the change to Snipe Powers and Tankers where the actual functionality changed rather than just the stats. This is much harder to plan and develop than simple value changes (comparatively), and requires a lot more thought and care. I would imagine that Super Strength would need changes such as this which would require nearly a whole patch just for it, as compared to tackling Numerical Changes that could be applied to a couple of sets. Yes, more people do choose Super Strength over TW, but that could also be a symptom of this being a superhero game and one of the first things you think of is super strength. If you look at scrappers, Regen is incredibly popular too despite... you know lol. TW still places high in the AT's that get it, being the top Scrapper set and within the top 4/5 for Tanks and Brutes. It not being the blowaway most popular set does not save it from being worked on though, much like how say, Battle Axe not being the *least* picked Tanker set doesn't mean it should not receive buffs over the *least* picked option. It all depends on what would fit per patch IMO.

What ill say here is that HC looks at quite a few metrics when it comes to balance. Anything from base level, basic SO slotting, permahasten lvls of recharge, map layout, npc powers, or even npc hurtboxes and how they mesh with AoEs, and everythingin between. There's never just one thing they point to for adjustments, so rest assured its never just some knee-jerk change! When a set performs incredibly well across multiple criteria is when it becomes troubling though. Let's take Katana, currently it wins out when you directly compare it to Broadsword in most every way as they were clones at one point before Katana got changes. There is not much that BS does that Katana does not match or do better in a 1:1 comparison. In this particular case, Broadsword is the one that needs attention as the comparison does not hold true between Katana and many other sets. This example would change if say, Katana outdid most of the other melee sets by a margin across multiple criteria. In that case, where multiple melee sets are in a good spot with 1 standing out above that spot, it makes sense to adjust that one back into that zone. Historically, HC has done more "adjustments" than straight nerfs as well. So while the aspects that push a set to be well above the rest may be toned back, I have faith that other benefits will come to the set to even it out.

The difference here is in the recovery. For StJ, you just need any 3 attacks to gain enough meter to unleash a full CU, and even at 2 Meter its pretty darn good if you decide to just let it rip or you weren't paying attention. With Dual Blades, you do not get that buffer unless you miss the 1st part of any given combo, which is usually a fast attack both in animation and recharge. Any other attack in the chain dropping means you have to attempt the whole combo over again, which sucks. There is no "you still get the combo but it's not as good as it could have been" or "oops, quick use another attack and you can finish it!", its all or nothing. Even Psy Melee at least powers you up a bit while you have insight so even if you don't get to "spend" it properly (GSB misses, or w/e), you still got results. KM needs help, but its "gimmick" has a decent enough skeleton, the meat just needs work. Spoiler for the next round of melee results, but KM is still bottom of the barrel. The main issue is how the Stacks of power siphon "work" with the set itself. You have 3 actually great attacks that all animate incredibly fast to build up max stacks in about ~5 seconds, but then all the other attacks are incredibly slow animating to where using them at max stacks means you actually lose stacks by the time its used. So on its own, you end up having to build up damage over time with weak attacks, and then lose the bonus when you try and use your "big" attacks for not much of a benefit that you'd imagine. Compared to a set with Build Up, you get 100% damage right away and then 10 seconds to use it at full effect. Kinetic unfortunately has to not only build up that damage over time, eating into the buff a bit, but then the big attacks you want to be boosted end up not being as spectacular as you'd imagine. What id rather see is either/or: A) Power Siphon stacks last much much longer so once you do build them up, maintaining max stacks is sort of trivial. B) Perhaps different powers give different stacks. Like 1 stack per ~0.5 s of animation or something. 3) The "big" powers get more benefit from PS stacks, sort of like Street Justice where there base stats go up a bit, but having to specifically build up power under the effects of another power would allow you to let them rip one after the other.

Dual Blades is the one set that legit has a "gimmick". It has a branching combo tree that no other set has where you directly need to string Power A, into B, into C in order to function. Why I call this a gimmick directly is two fold: 1) Ironically, it is best to straight up ignore the combos to get the best performance out of DB at high level. 2) The combos are very finnicky in that its not *immediately* obvious what strings are what without having to look it up, essentially, and due to RNG combos can be dropped which unfairly punishes DB. These points combined make the combo mechanic here just... messy in my opinion and it's what I think has stained the idea of combos for a lot of folks. StJ is much, much more forgiving and free-form than DB. It's gimmick occurs "naturally" in that you have Builders and Spenders. All your powers (that are not spenders) build up meter to boost your finisher of choice, but there is nothing stopping you from using a finisher right out the gate of youd like aside from it not being "as good". DB attacks can be actively bad of you do not use them in a combo by contrast and it requires precise strings with little wiggle room. StJ plays much like any other melee set with the BONUS ability to power up certain moves. The Build Up power also gives you meter right away, and you can spend meter pretty freely thanks to how fast you can get it back. Id rank this one less a gimmick and more just a mechanic, if that makes sense. Getting Contamination is incredibly easy and even passive once you get your Aura to where you really do not have to think about it. I don't think mechanics where you dont really have to "plan" for it are worthy of being called a "gimmick". Sort of in between StJ and Rad Melee, Insight just sort of... happens and boosts a few random powers with DoT except for Greater Psy Blade. This one def leans more on the gimmick side unless you are surrounded by targets to get good odds of proccing insight. You can also use Boggle but like... lol TW is faster more often than it is slow, as I've gone in depth about before. Like with Rad Melee, its more of a "natural part of the set" and less of something you have to strictly plan out. Granted, optimizing the momentum window is a thing and two powers are locked behind momentum, but given you are in it for 5/6 attacks on average that isn't too big a hurdle. Like StJ, you can gain and spend Tidal Force very easily and naturally, and have the option to use non boosted powers without much penalty than "i could have boosted it", on top of the ability to max Tidal force on demand. Beam Rifle's mechanic is not much different than having any set that applies a debuff on a single target for you to exploit. Swap ammo does count, and ironically id like if it was *more* "gimmicky" when you swap ammo where say, different powers totally change. As it stands tho, there aren't much changes to your game plan aside from the secondary effects of your attacks when you do swap ammo. Fast snipe being a gimmick is a hard sell given it is a near global thing now. That's like saying having a self heal is a gimmick in terms of how many characters have access to it. I think including inherents is starting to stretch "gimmick" a lot since it becomes more and more universal. Of the sets you mentioned, I'd really only say DB and Psy are the ones with specific "gimmicks" and most everything else are just perks or mechanics. Of those, many could be mostly ignored and still have great effect aside from stance-change powersets, but even those usually have a "neutral" option and just require you running a toggle.

Which gimmick sets have you played?

Then use the build up first, or initial strike/rib cracker for 1 meter and let it rip. Its still friggen good at base / lvl 1. You are not being punished for not playing a certain way, its just more optimal to do it a certain way. A lot of people like stuff with more to chew on. There are plenty of sets that are just button mashing already. EM was always a specialist set and making it a specialized set would keep to that theme.

>Troubling >Street Justice is Finnicky Ok, I'm not gonna sugar coat it. The "combo mechanics" and gimmicks seen in CoH are incredibly, incredibly simple compared to most anything comparable both today as well as since like 2010. Street Justice in particular is literally "play normally, but save one of these powers for later! Or don't, theyre still good without building them up". Its not like it is actually forcing you to do a quarter circle back - forward - punch input to do one of the moves, just land any 3 attacks > use your big attack which is the style of most every other powerset in a nutshell. Most every "gimmick" set not only can have its gimmick be glossed over as they happen to be rather passive (tw, psy, staff) but also simply work well even of you do not 100% optimize said gimmick, youre not being punished for not doing so. The exception to this is Dual Blades tho, which with its branching combo trees becomes rather complex... and ironically the best use of it is to ignore them lol. We have a plethora of sets that are just "push buttons wee" with no pizazz. If Energy Melee was just made "better" itd still be just another damage set without much to stand out. Even Energy Transfer isn't too special in a world with Crushing Uppercut, Greater Psy Blade, and modern Stalkers all dealing amazing ST damage while also providing other utilities and AoE coverage. If EM wants to be relevant, it needs more than just "polish".

While I agree with the premise, the examples here I feel are a bit off? Stalkers already play very much differently than Scrappers, as well as have different powers in their Primaries and Secondaries even outside of the mandatory Hide/Assassin's Strike. Would I love more diversity to make them stand out a bit more? Absolutely! Just like with your /Nin example compared to Scrapper /Nin, they could definitely use more tools to make them different but I don't think removing armor should be one of them. Tankers likewise are much more AoE focused now with their changes to Radius and Target Caps, tho again having more focus on that would be cool, much like how their Fire Melee has another AoE (poor tho it may be) compared to other Melee AT's Fire Melees. Like, why should Tanker X set be the same as Scrapper X set aside from different values? The AoE increases help but still. Adding more variety per AT would still be awesome

Hot take: but this makes total sense. Think about ALL the powers in the game that are literal copy/paste of the same power but with a different secondary effect (at least mechanically). Like every t1/t2 attack for 90% of powersets, every T1/T2 control power, a good chunk of Armor powers where its like "this is your S/L resist power". There are only a few "unique" powers out there when you really think of it 😕

The patch notes starting with "QQQQQQQQQ" is just mean and misleading

Galaxy Brain after just 1 mission being lead

Got a new powerset for you sir! New powersets are *tight*!

How often is this realistically happening, lets be honest. No, seriously. Power groups designed to take down a particular AV or such shouldnt be a consideration as that can always be done for any specific content and is too much of a headache to consider outside of exploitative scenarios like a certain AT or Powerset having a weird bug or something. We can currently lock down AVs with a full team of controllers or doms, so the ability to do so even if briefly with less than 8 shouldn't be a concern though it is still unrealistic to assume "oh everyone is just gonna roll in with X amount of Y thing every time". It simply doesn't happen.