M3z

First off they do die in BG mode pretty easily, especially if pets get LOS'd by a wall or something(which is all the time). Even then you can just get killed through BG mode pretty easily unless you get emp AOE heals. So we just forget about all the weaknesses/issues MMs have and say "don't buff MMs" because they are difficult to kill in BG mode? Tanks are hard to kill and don't suffer from the same weaknesses as MMs (damage/survivability tied to slow moving pets), guess we nerf those too? I'm not sure what pets ignoring DR has to do with anything? You generally don't utilize that anyways and does it really have any effect outside of MMs using barrier in zones? Even then, just walk away from them for 15 seconds til their res/defense degens lol. MMs are absolute trash in zones, and only playable in arena under very specific cirumstances(basically with kins). Yeah you survive spikes in BG mode but most of the time you die in hold duration before you get back to your pets to get in BG mode lol. I feel like people only remember the times I survive in BG mode and not all the other times I die during hold durations. I'm not gonna go over everything I said in the other threads but yeah if you think "MMs dont need buffs" bring a MM to KB or scrims and try playing one and getting on the scoreboard and see how hard it is against a team that knows how to fight it.

I would take just this at this point, this would be huge. Maybe make them move at 70% of capped MS or something in pvp zones only. Or just let them inherit the MM player's movespeed. edit: this would be pvp only change, also if we got pets with more movespeed, they wouldn't need any damage buff or anything.

Should try pvping on a MM in zones/arena first before making comments like this. Apparently you do need experience especially if you're coming to these conclusions? Why is it that every single high level/competitive pvper has been saying the same thing for months about MMs in zone pvp and arena? Should I get the other players to chime in this thread? Or do you know more than the best MM players in the game? You tell me. You're right this game isn't that complicated, but apparently I still have to spell it out why MMs need a damage buff.: MMs movement/survivability is limited by supremacy range/BG MEANING if you are ever threatened by a MM or its pets, just move away,there's no effective way for a MM to chase nullifying the class completely. This leads to situations where people kite or fly above and there is quite literally nothing you can do to combat this(if your pets are melee you are even more screwed). If they did more damage and were more threatening, they'd be able to fight back against these tactics rather than being completely helpless. The pets lack of movement is a HUGE weakness, and without slows MMs should be rewarded for correctly positioning themselves to set up offense. Again this is something you'd know if you played MM. PvP is dominated by proc damage, MM pets have extremely limited access to proc damage for numerous reasons. Even the few attacks that do have procs, you cannot micro your pets to do their proc'd out attacks so therefor even when you do proc pets it's unreliable. Proc damage accounts for upwards of 60% of a total attack chains damage on other ATs (in addition to the base damage). MM pets are still stuck in the past relying on base damage in 90% of cases competing with the proc damage. Therefore in order to compete with other ATs damage which have been supplemented by proc damage, MMs pets should have base damage increases (in pvp only). I've dueled on MM, MMs die 1v1 to corrs/blasters/defender THROUGH bodyguard, on top of getting kited and the pets unable to do anything. This AT is just broken and unplayable in many cases. I'm not asking for corruptor/blaster/defender levels of damage. These are bandaid fixes for the AT that I'd never propose if procs weren't out of hand and slows/mezzes functioned like they used to. But it doesn't seem like there's going to be systemwide mechanics changes for pvp anytime soon so we may as well do SOMETHING to help the AT in the meantime. TL;DR MMs are unplayable in zones(unless you are just standing still in bg mode/barrier which if that's the case are you really actually playing? You will never kill anyone with this tactic), and unplayable in arena unless your pets are speedboosted (are other ATs literally unplayable unless speedboosted?) and even then they are not great Because MMs cannot slow or mez in any meaningful way, they are dysfunctional (like you said) unable to catch anyone, endlessly being kited, smart players have no problem picking apart even high level MM players Every other viable AT in the game right now has around 60% of their damage come from procs, MMs dont have access to damage procs IN A MEANINGFUL WAY they need damage buff to stay on par with what other ATs have access to If these buffs are pvp only that is fine with me, they need SOMETHING though

First off let me just address what @monos1 said, MMs are not overpowered or even close to being overpowered in any pvp format(in arena or zones). In zones they are shutdown by a single judgement from one player (if you are camping body guard mode) If you are moving around out of body guard mode (which you are usually forced to do anyways to get any offense off) you are subject to being 2 shotted by just about anyone (most min/max builds hover around 1100-1300 HP). MMs are a very dysfunctional AT right now, they used to rely on slows/mezzes, which essentially just dont work anymore in pvp (yes mezzes exist but 2 mez durations accomplish nothing, slows DO NOT WORK in pvp). In arena MMs are very situational and really only function with kins. There are many prerequisites to making MM teams work in arena and on top of that they are difficult to play and easy to punish. Overall MMs desperately need buffs at both the high level of pvp play, casual play of zones and I'd even say pve (for many builds not all builds). And to @Erydanus I agree with you 100% every AT should be functional/fun/playable by any player. I guess my point before was that MMs are UNPLAYABLE on a casual level (in zones) and BARELY PLAYABLE at a competitive arena level (and that's only if you have a kin on your team. If you do not have a kin on your team they are not viable in arena either). I am a MM mainer from a competitive pvp team, there are like 2-3 of us in the whole game that play MM at that level and it can be a real struggle for us if that gives people an idea of the state of MMs in the game right now.

Yes this would be great! There are certain pets (knights/bruiser) who I never want to fight at ranged EVER.

Here's how I slot enforcers for my 8v8 pvp build: soulbound allegiance damage soulbound allegiance acc/dam/rech soulbound allegiance acc/rech soulbound allegiance chance for BU touch of lady grey chance for neg damage shield breaker chance for lethal damage Gets you +dam and +HP set bonuses which is nice Because many of the enforcer's attacks are -def this is usually the best setup for max damage If you don't have access to Achilles proc anywhere in your build might be worth it to slot it instead of shield breaker or touch of lady grey Chance for BU goes off so often it stacks sometimes on enforcers. Also summoning enforcers (even if they are already summoned) triggers the chance for BU on yourself, this can act as a mastermind build up every 24ish seconds. Also many people may not know this but it's best to just completely skip first pet upgrade, all of the attacks in it are complete trash. I don't take it on my builds (for thugs).

I would love to play an ill dom in pvp.

I really like the MM changes but would also like to include additional changes for consideration: Small note about me, I run a top competitive pvp team in CoH and have been playing since i8 playing on test ladder and highest level of CoH pvp. Below I have listed a few small changes for MMs that I think will be beneficial for them in both pve and pvp. In pvp, because mez durations are so small (2 second base duration for MMs) and because slows can no longer reduce max movespeed (this essentially means slows DO NOT WORK IN PVP) these changes are to buff MMs to allow them to compete with the other ATs. MMs used to rely on exclusively on slows/mezzes to set up their offense slowing an enemy down long enough to allow pets to move in and kill. Because they can no longer slow/mez in any effective manner I have made these suggestions with that in mind. WISHLIST CHANGE Allow you to select what attacks you want a pet to use (I realize this is something that is probably not possible but would be very nice) Allow you to micro which attack a pet does (also not another change I expect to be doable but would help so much) PETS Boost base level of all pets to match MMs or by +1/+2 Boost pet damage base damage by 25% (why this change? MMs used to rely on slows/mezzes to allow pets the time to move in and do damage. Because they are no longer able to do this pets need to be more threatening in brief engagements. Also MMs are the slowest AT in the game as they are forced to stay in BG mode or risk getting 2 shotted. This means they are limited to their pets movespeed. If that is the case the pets need to be more threatening to make up for this extreme limitation) NECROMANCY Turn back on crit modifier to knights in pvp again (they never melee anything to begin with so at least they can be rewarded when they do decide to) Either remove weapon draw on knights or make them prioritize melee (MAINLY headsplitter/disembowel) more than they do (they love spamming ranged attacks which sucks given their melee attacks are 75% of a necros damage output) Knights prioritize headsplitter and disembowel over all other attacks Reduce cooldown on life drain to 15 for zombies (30 sec base CD is absurd given they have barely any attacks to begin with) THUGS Bruiser prioritizes KO Blow over all other attacks (in pvp given the fast nature of the movement, the bruiser will be hurling boulders 99% of the time. Honestly if there was a way to just make him run in and KO Blow everytime it's off cooldown that'd be ideal) Increase bruiser fury generation (I'm guessing if it's the same as brutes it's 2 per hit, if it were increased to 15 or 20 that would help) MMs really are not playable outside of controlled 8v8 Arena settings with special rules like incarnates disabled. In zones MMs are unplayable (judgement basically just one shots all of your pets and you cannot catch enemies). Because you cannot slow or CC enemies long enough for pets to do anything MMs need to be more dangerous in the fast paced engagements. They have some of the greatest weaknesses of any ATs (lowest HP, pets are extremely slow, limiting MMs ability to fight back without leaving BG mode). You can't even use TP foe strats anymore because when you use TP foe on an enemy they become unaffectable for a brief period! Anyways I realize PVP community is small and many people are not onboard with making pvp changes so if I had to choose just a few changes at the VERY least I would want knight crit modifier turned on and the melee attack prioritization for bruiser/knights which I think everyone could agree. If any of the homecoming team manages to read this thanks!

As someone who plays MMs almost exclusively in pvp, I'll say they for sure need the level boosts (for ALL pets it makes no sense why the pets are lower level and this just weakens them both in pve and pvp). As far as necromancy changes, they need a damage boost and the knights need to be going for melee attacks 90% of the time or they need to remove the weapon draw animation for their swords. I'd even be fine with them just removing all of the knights ranged attacks as headsplitter/disembowel are most of a necros total damage output (lich doesn't do that much damage and zombie damage is very small). In pvp necro is a pain to play even as a necro/kin(capped movespeed pets) because the knights don't really go into melee all that often(they spam gloom/dark blast). Knights also need crit modifier turned on for pvp! Makes absolutely no sense why it's turned off. Because there are no slows/CC (which kills 90% of MM builds from being viable in pvp by the way) that last long enough or are effective enough to slow an enemy down for the pets to move in and attack, the rare times that knights do manage to get into melee (and this is RARE even with speedboosted pets) they should be rewarded for getting in melee in the first place. MMs are in a bad enough place as it is, this would be something small that would help MMs be just a little more viable in pvp. Also I almost feel zombies need gloom or darkblast or they need to lower life drain's cooldown from 30 seconds to 10 or 15, their combined damage output from all 3 pukes is 150 which is almost nothing. Either another attack or reduce cooldown on siphon life. Soul extraction should be able to be used on a live pet as well. tl;dr Agree with the OP, MM pets are WACK and necro needs some love

annihilation proc, achilles proc, 2 lady greys (def/rech, def/end/rech) (2 slotted for +hp bonus)

you're actually against them expanding the character limit for bios? lol

I've wondered this myself..

I know this probably isn't a reality but imagine being able to tick check boxes which attacks you wanted your pets to use.

Another highlight, this time from Eden map

Probably not a bad option if you like to take alphas while in BG mode. I like having the big melee attacks but if you can go without it ice sounds pretty good in PVE especially for survivability if that's what you value most.

Anyone know of a way to make all pets follow a target without attacking (follow target, defensive) something like that?

Hey macnolias, no problem. For pve you can probably drop stealth/invis/phase and pick up fulcrim shift, siphon speed and instead of leviathan you can go mu mastery for thunderstrike and electrifying fences.

Regarding the names, same name teams aren't allowed (they're called barcode teams) because at one point (long time ago probably around i10 or so) some teams were doing just that on the test server pvp ladder. Running entire teams where their names would be variations of IIIlIll, IIIIlIlI, etc. Everyone agreed to ban it because that strategy would quickly become the only viable strategy and would remove one of the fun parts about competitive pvp in this game (coordinated targeted spiking). Anyway just a little brief pvp history lesson about barcode teams heh, if anyone wants to use my build I've attached it to this post. THUGS KIN 10-19-21.mxd

Hey guys, Thought I'd share this PvP video of a competitive 8v8 arena match on my thugs/kin MM! We played on Skyway and were running 2 emps, 1 mm, 3 blasters, 1 dom, 1 defender (nature). The general idea behind this lineup is we gather around every 2 minutes to buff the entire team with kinetics/nature buffs. My role is to mess up the enemies ability to target (when they tab they must tab through my pets) to disrupt the enemy offense and to provide extra damage on targets via pets and my shark attacks/KO blow. If anyone has any questions about what's going on in the vid let me know!

Some basic quick advice: -Procs go off depending on which attack your pet is using (you can view these by right clicking your pet power or upgrades to see which powers they use and what effects they have (this will determine what procs they can use in that attack)). For example I slot my thugs enforcer pets with shield breaker: chance for lethal dmg and touch of lady grey: chance for neg dmg because many of their attacks have a -def component to it. -I'm actually not entirely sure if bonus damage/acc effects pets, I know recharge does not do anything to them -Musculature 45% dmg and intuition +dmg +range are my favorite alpha incarnates to use. Rebirth/barrier are good as well. Hybrid assault is a game changer too, just make sure you turn it on before the pets are summoned for them to get the effect. Degen is my favorite interface to use as well. -Soulbound Allegiance chance for BU is so good it's mandatory in my opinion, make sure to include that in your builds Hopefully someone can elaborate more on how exactly IO bonuses work on pets because I'm not even sure myself!

Make a thunderdome or start emping. These rules are there to incentivize bringing emps. There's been an alarming lack of emps lately.

Ah okay, I definitely misunderstood what you were saying my bad. I totally agree that pvp needs to be more i12 style (basically pve value/mechanics oriented). And yeah I also definitely agree that it would not be OP at all, but it would be good and add another viable pvp set for melees (who have virtually none).

I run a competitive arena pvp team, I'm aware of the pvp damage formulas. Reverting the animation would not open a can of worms as you'd say. It's a pretty simple way to make energy melee viable. Most damage comes from procs so the lowered base damage becomes less of a factor(because base damage is not as important). With the fast combo of total focus->energy transfer you'd be doing more damage in a smaller time frame window (compared to current TF->ET combo) giving enemies less time to react and use rebirth/heals etc. This isn't about "fixing pvp" as a whole, it's about giving melees another viable set other than super strength, psi melee, or rad melee. Long story short brutes, tankers, stalkers would all have another viable set for pvp if they reverted the animation. Yes even with the damage formula lowering the damage this set would be very good just having that fast animation follow up to total focus or giving stalkers a fast follow up to assassin strike.

ET really needs to animation reverted. It'd add another viable melee set for pvp (right now you really only have rad melee, super strength or psy melee to choose from). Melee are in a bad enough spot as it is, definitely would help them out to have SOMETHING else viable other than super strength for tankers/brutes and psy melee for stalkers/scrappers. Not to mention it was one of my most favorite sets to play back in the day. Funny thing is even if ET's animation got reverted it still wouldn't be as stupid as psy melee where I can do insight greater psy blade crits for 1500+.

m3z, bizarre, volund team unga bunga demon/nat mm thug/nat mm fire/plant blast pain/beam def grav/sav dom