Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[csr]

On 9/19/2019 at 9:44 AM, GM Capocollo said:

Here's the problem as I see it: at the high end, a "tanker that can do it all" is just called a brute.  It's possible for a brute to get up to tanker levels of resistance, defense and aggro generation with a proper set of enhancements, but a tanker doesn't have a path to get to brute levels of damage.  Tanker has a strong "class fantasy" focused on a single domain, but it's mechanically getting edged out by an archetype that's been allowed to straddle multiple domains.

And this is why I thought the first step in balancing Tankers should have been to nerf Brutes.  My concern with the damage cap increase is that the high end performance of Tankers is raised so much that a nerf to Brutes seems out of the question.  Meaning that the next move is to buff Scrappers (Brutes clearly outperform Scrappers at the high end too).  Then Stalkers.  Then...

Edited September 20, 2019 by csr
typo

[Myrmidon]

Tested

 

Dark/Dark

Dark/Fire

 

Both level 22 with common 25 IO slotting (and A Steadfast KB Protection IO because only a loon plays that set without it.)

 

Difficulty: 0/x4

 

While they both performed well against a number of foes (Council, Tsoo, Banished Pantheon, Family), the end usage was still very high-end usage. After adding a Miracle proc to Heath, however, all of the end issues cleared up significantly (Miracle/Numina procs at minimum slotting levels are my “required slotting” on every single character before I put one drop of XP on them on live servers). I liked the way that both performed and can see one of those options joining my play rotation at some point.

[DreadShinobi]

14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Keep in mind the brutes will hit the max cap much easier.

 

Most the time the Tanker will be 75%-80% or so of a brute. 

Brutes will not hit the cap any easier than a tanker would, they still need 400% of damage buffing (16 small reds or two full fulcrum shifts) to hit their damage cap after fury and enhancements are factored in. Tankers will be doing more damage than brutes at the start of a fight, and actually gain more than brutes from the red insps they use and damage buffing from team members.

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Brutes will not hit the cap any easier than a tanker would, they still need 400% of damage buffing (16 small reds or two full fulcrum shifts) to hit their damage cap after fury and enhancements are factored in. Tankers will be doing more damage than brutes at the start of a fight, and actually gain more than brutes from the red insps they use and damage buffing from team members.

Brutes have a big self damage buff, don't they?  

 

They are at Scrapper damage at 65-70 fury nominally. 

 

So new tanker damage at a fair amount less than that.  

 

So whatever that comparable fury amount to whatever fury they actually have is more than the tanker is running.  

[csr]

9 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Nerf Brute instead?

I will not do that.

So, does that mean you intend to buff Scrappers, so that they too compete with Brutes?

[golstat2003]

16 minutes ago, csr said:

So, does that mean you intend to buff Scrappers, so that they too compete with Brutes?

pfffft why? This is a discussion about Tankers. A buff to them DOES NOT necessarily mean a buff or nerf to any other melee class is needed.

[Grandfeatherex]

this looks like it robs single target focused tanks to buff aoe's for farmers

as i'm soling battle axe now i know i would not want to wait to lv 28 for swoop and have to get whirling axe instead.

 

removing bruising makes the tier 1 obsolete if they are getting damage buffed by ~20% solo and makes them less team oriented

moving the tier 1 to tier 2 just makes the tier 2 obsolete, where as it stands now with bruising none of the attacks are obsolete since the tier one is effectively a 20% team damage boost

again with the aoe's this just seems to cater to farmers running /x8
while a none farmer solo tank will suffer for having any procs in aoe/cones since the aoe is scaling up (unless you are also going to overhaul the PPM formula)

 

 

increasing the taunt cap doesn't really do anything for solo tanks either 

 

the extra end is fine i guess but i don't have any end issues with my tanks.

 

right now i can and enjoy soloing tanks just fine, but with all the changes to "buff them" what exactly do solo tanks that aren't farmers get out of this other than nerfing their proc rates? 

[ivanhedgehog]

On 9/12/2019 at 8:35 PM, MunkiLord said:

If such a change would in any way have a chance of going back to the days of waiting on a tank to herd a bunch, then no thanks.

you dont have to wait, but if I am tanking, dont expect me to save your bacon if you over pull and get in over your head. If I am on a healer, I will be perfectly fine letting you go suicide. Many times pulling helps mitigate awkward rooms, helps maximize aoe attacks and helps blasters not faceplant when they use their damage to the fullest. If you run in front and cause a team wipe because you forgot your add meds, you arent being a team player anyway, so why would a team support you? If I am on a debuffer or buffer, and I keep pulling agro because the tank/brute wont taunt? I stop buffing/debuffing and stick to dps.

[golstat2003]

45 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

you dont have to wait, but if I am tanking, dont expect me to save your bacon if you over pull and get in over your head. If I am on a healer, I will be perfectly fine letting you go suicide. Many times pulling helps mitigate awkward rooms, helps maximize aoe attacks and helps blasters not faceplant when they use their damage to the fullest. If you run in front and cause a team wipe because you forgot your add meds, you arent being a team player anyway, so why would a team support you? If I am on a debuffer or buffer, and I keep pulling agro because the tank/brute wont taunt? I stop buffing/debuffing and stick to dps.

There's a huge difference between this and herding of old . . . which was dumb. I think that's what most folks are against.

 

Most teams today (in the age of incarnate) usually have no problems keeping up with the tank while he/she holds aggro.

[Vanden]

54 minutes ago, Grandfeatherex said:

while a none farmer solo tank will suffer for having any procs in aoe/cones since the aoe is scaling up (unless you are also going to overhaul the PPM formula)

The PPM formula ignores outside buffs to its variables (which the increased AoE sizes are being implemented as), it only includes enhancements, so procs in Tanker AoEs should be unaffected.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Vanden

[Grandfeatherex]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The PPM formula ignores outside buffs to its variables (which the increased AoE sizes are being implemented as), it only includes enhancements, so procs in Tanker AoEs should be unaffected.

ok, then the AoE's that have been reduced to have the buff expand them will have slightly better proc rates

so that leaves solo tanks with an extra +20 end (which i've never had a build where end was an issue)
and slightly better proc rates IF they slot procs

in exchange they lose any reason to take what use to be their teir 1
increases their taunt (which does nothing solo)

increases targets hit by aoe (which does nothing for solo if you aren't farming)
forces them to exchange single target attacks in tier with AoE attacks (moving 4 of 9 attacks around from what they are now)


this doesn't seem to be a "tank buff" it's a buff for farmers

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Grandfeatherex said:

so that leaves solo tanks with an extra +20 end (which i've never had a build where end was an issue)

Good for you, but that's hardly typical.

3 minutes ago, Grandfeatherex said:

increases their taunt (which does nothing solo)

increases targets hit by aoe (which does nothing for solo if you aren't farming)

Solo isn't where Tankers were underperforming, so the majority of the changes are focused on helping in a team setting.

[Grandfeatherex]

38 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Good for you, but that's hardly typical.

Solo isn't where Tankers were underperforming, so the majority of the changes are focused on helping in a team setting.

i've never seen any other tank having end issues either when played smart even with SO's

as for teaming this removes what is effectively a 20% team boost to damage in favour of the tank doing more damage themselves i don't see that as being helpful to a team
neither is the taunt aoe if the aggro cap remains the same 

if the aggro cap was raised i could see that helping out with the increased taunt
 but again the changes seem to screw over solo tanks, to buff a tanks damage reducing the damage by their team mates without bruise

makes most tanks (now tier 2) attack redundant unless it's just used to slot a set

 

there is no reason to continue my rad/axe tank, i'll reroll it as a brute on homecoming and makes the tank version on rebirth

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Grandfeatherex said:

there is no reason to continue my rad/axe tank, i'll reroll it as a brute on homecoming and makes the tank version on rebirth

Wow, do you really think a single-target 20% resistance debuff is the only reason to roll a Tanker? That's the only thing that Tankers lose with the changes.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Wow, do you really think a single-target 20% resistance debuff is the only reason to roll a Tanker? That's the only thing that Tankers lose with the changes.

That seems so backwards.   Except for AV fights or something, the proposed changes will be more useful.  

 

And battle-axe can still slot -res. 

 

[Parabola]

3 hours ago, Grandfeatherex said:

increases targets hit by aoe (which does nothing for solo if you aren't farming)

You don't have to be farming to be fighting multiple enemies - even on x0 you fight spawns with 2 or 3 and sometimes more mobs in it. On toons with any sort of aoe I always crank up the team size for soloing as it is more efficient to be fighting multiple easier targets than fewer hard targets (I'd like to see a greater incentive to build single target killing machines in the game but that's a different conversation).

[Noyjitat]

16 hours ago, GM Capocollo said:

Here's the problem as I see it: at the high end, a "tanker that can do it all" is just called a brute.  It's possible for a brute to get up to tanker levels of resistance, defense and aggro generation with a proper set of enhancements, but a tanker doesn't have a path to get to brute levels of damage.  Tanker has a strong "class fantasy" focused on a single domain, but it's mechanically getting edged out by an archetype that's been allowed to straddle multiple domains.

not actually it isn't.... You can get close to tank level by focusing on your sets strongpoints and boosting others. If you put all of your ios into defense/resist sets (which then you're giving up slotting recharge)Also some brutes don't benefit from as high of defense as the same powerset does on a scrapper. Try playing a super reflexes brute on 50+4 x8 vs a scrapper and see the results. Furthermore Brutes can't obtain the amount of hitpoints/regen a tank and its dullpain/heal powers are also weaker than the tanks. Tanks on the other hand can get defense/resist even easier w on the tank So you can focus on recharge and +damage setbonus on the tank. Or if you're more inclined you can focus on being more of universal tanker and grab those resist sets. here things like weave/combat jumping/maneuvers provide higher stats

Edited September 20, 2019 by Noyjitat

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

you dont have to wait, but if I am tanking, dont expect me to save your bacon if you over pull and get in over your head. If I am on a healer, I will be perfectly fine letting you go suicide. Many times pulling helps mitigate awkward rooms, helps maximize aoe attacks and helps blasters not faceplant when they use their damage to the fullest. If you run in front and cause a team wipe because you forgot your add meds, you arent being a team player anyway, so why would a team support you? If I am on a debuffer or buffer, and I keep pulling agro because the tank/brute wont taunt? I stop buffing/debuffing and stick to dps.

Cool

[DSorrow]

3 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

not actually it isn't.... You can get close to tank level by focusing on your sets strongpoints and boosting others. If you put all of your ios into defense/resist sets (which then you're giving up slotting recharge)

This isn't universally true. My TW/Elec has capped S/L/E/F/C Resistance and perma Hasten. Many sets can easily get soft capped Defense and perma Hasten.

 

8 hours ago, csr said:

So, does that mean you intend to buff Scrappers, so that they too compete with Brutes?

Why aren't Scrappers competitive with Brutes?

[ParagonKid]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

Wow, do you really think a single-target 20% resistance debuff is the only reason to roll a Tanker? That's the only thing that Tankers lose with the changes.

Honestly, I can't think of a reason to roll a Tanker* over a Brute, even with Bruising.

 

Brutes are just so much more optimal and have greater potential. Once Brutes became available blueside, the only thing that "saved" Tankers was roleplay/thematics/inertia; luckily for them, most of the playerbase weren't really Meta followers.

 

*The only reason I rolled a Tanker since Homecoming, was nostalgia and to get my main back.

Edited September 20, 2019 by ParagonKid

[Myrmidon]

52 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Why aren't Scrappers competitive with Brutes?

 

Because...Super Strength.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Myrmidon

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Because...Super Strength.

Not gonna lie, I would support adding SS to Scrappers. To make them competitive with Brutes or something.

[Myrmidon]

Just now, DSorrow said:

Not gonna lie, I would support adding SS to Scrappers. To make them competitive with Brutes or something.

 

I was hoping to be able to roll this when Homecoming servers opened, however, it looks like we could be waiting a while.

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Not gonna lie, I would support adding SS to Scrappers. To make them competitive with Brutes or something.

It's been said it will happen, Rage will changed for the port, but no further information or timetable given. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Myrmidon]

24 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

Honestly, I can't think of a reason to roll a Tanker* over a Brute, even with Bruising.

 

Brutes are just so much more optimal and have greater potential. Once Brutes became available blueside, the only thing that "saved" Tankers was roleplay/thematics/inertia; luckily for them, most of the playerbase weren't really Meta followers.

 

*The only reason I rolled a Tanker since Homecoming, was nostalgia and to get my main back.

 

As they are currently, one million times this.