Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Seph]

2 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

On my Rad/Fire Brute I normally clear the ComiCon map in around 4 min.  Sometimes less, sometimes more but that is pretty normal.  If the stars align and everything wanders into the same area and I don't have to clean up spawns I can get down to around 3:30.  With these changes, I made an identical Fire/Rad tank (apart from the ATOs) and averages around 3:30 even with cleaning up mob spawns and sub optimal placement of the helper.  I just did 5 runs but all were right around that time with one being 3:45 where everyone was spread out and no lore pet and one being at 3:13 when I had only 1 extra spawn to clean up.

So they are going to be better brutes with these changes, I expected as much as a 0.15 damage multiplier increase is massive.

[Kruhl Sentru]

Any chance, while you're looking into "tanking", you could look at the scrapper threat level?  Tankers are this game's primary tank, with high hp and ~33% better defense powers.  Brutes are the secondary tank, generating faster aggro, but lacking the boosted defense powers.  Kheldians can act as a backup/tertiary tank in dwarf form, but lack a full array of powers.  Scrappers generate 50% more threat than normal ATs, but fall even behind Kheldians in both durability and taunting.

 

For those who don't know, every AT has a built-in stat called "Threat Level" that can be viewed in the combat attributes window, 'basic' tab, near the bottom.  For most ATs, this is 2.  It acts as a multiplier on your threat generated.  A few rare powers have been known to lower it (such as illusion's improved invisibility), but it's usually just a done deal.  For Tankers and Brutes, this is set to 4 - hence the +400% taunt you used to see on all their powers.  But, Scrappers, a pure melee dps AT, have both Challenge, a single target, fast recharging taunt, and a threat level of 3, increasing all threat generated by 50%.  At least you can choose to skip Challenge if you want, but that threat level is permanent.

 

If I'm not mistaken, this would be a holdover from pre-ED days.  Scrappers were pretty tough then, and were a secondary tank.  Afterwards, they lost that ability.  Now, while some can be decently durable (and need to be, considering the amount of damage flying around in melee range), they aren't really a tank at all.  If they are, they'd be the, what, quartiary tank?  Instead of helping, this boosted threat mostly just makes it harder for tankers to keep aggro off of a high dps scrapper (brutes generate more threat, so they probably won't have as much trouble).  And believe me, I've had some builds that yanked aggro off of tankers in a heartbeat.  Anything not outright hit with the taunt status effect, at least.

 

It'd be nice to at least include it as an option from Null the Gull, if there's any opposition to the change, as many of us would rather not be pulling so much aggro as a DPS AT.  Of course, I don't expect a smaller, almost unheard of issue to get much attention, but I figured it's worth a shot.

[dignition]

1 minute ago, Seph said:

So they are going to be better brutes with these changes, I expected as much as a 0.15 damage multiplier increase is massive.

The whole point of this thread is that nothing is set in stone. This is the kind of testing that should be done but one test doesn't qualify as proof either.

[Seph]

1 minute ago, dignition said:

The whole point of this thread is that nothing is set in stone. This is the kind of testing that should be done but one test doesn't qualify as proof either.

I am not saying these changes are going live, I am speaking about the numbers as they have been posted and giving my feedback. Nothing else.

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Seph said:

So they are going to be better brutes with these changes, I expected as much as a 0.15 damage multiplier increase is massive.

That's likely due to the increased target cap and double-sized AoEs making farming much easier; the damage at the cap is very close, and although the Tanker gets more out of the inspiration drops they have to make up ground for not having Fury.

 

FWIW: count me in on having non-weapon options for the elemental attacks across the board. 

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, Kruhl Sentru said:

For those who don't know, every AT has a built-in stat called "Threat Level" that can be viewed in the combat attributes window, 'basic' tab, near the bottom.  For most ATs, this is 2.  It acts as a multiplier on your threat generated.  A few rare powers have been known to lower it (such as illusion's improved invisibility), but it's usually just a done deal.

One of those rare powers is Super Speed. If your build has end to spare, run it. Most of the time you hear Scrappers bragging about their ability to survive +4/x8 as well or better than Brutes, though, so I'm surprised to see a request to lower their threat level.

Edited September 11, 2019 by siolfir

[Keen]

Some numbers from relevant powers (😅), from Brute -> Tanker

 

Blazing Aura: 8ft/x10 -> 16ft/x10
Spine Burst: 15ft/x10 -> 20ft/x16 (EDIT: was "nerfed" to 10ft to be doubled by Tanker's inherent)
Quills: 8ft/x10 -> 16ft/x16
Ripper: 7ft/x5/90arc -> 14ft/x10/180arc
Proton Sweep: 7ft/x5/75arc -> 14ft/x10/150arc
Irradiated Ground: NO INFO 😠
Atom Smasher: 10ft/x10 -> 20ft/x16

 

Numbers in PINK: supposed values ingame, after Tanker's inherent doubles them.

Numbers in GREEN: from the power info data ingame during character creation.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Keen

[Haijinx]

18 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Isn't this going to make those powers noticeably worse at holding aggro compared to damage auras?

It definitely will if they don't also get a range increase

 

 

[Lazarillo]

Just now, Keen said:

Are those numbers correct? They don't seem to be "double" the amounts.

I believe Powerhouse said the extended range came from the changes to the Tanker inherent, rather than to the powers themselves, so it won't show up in the creation screen.

[Keen]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I believe Powerhouse said the extended range came from the changes to the Tanker inherent, rather than to the powers themselves, so it won't show up in the creation screen.

Oh, okay. So I need to be actually ingame to test those out.

 

What about Spine Burst's smaller radius tho?

[William Valence]

20 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

This actually means the tanker gets to leverage it's higher suvivability to solo more effectively (and even then, it does not exceed Scrapper/Brute killing potential solo even if you managed to keep a continuous supply of more than 16 enemies.)

I'm going to give it a fair shake despite my apprehension, but just consider this fear of mine. The Footstomp picture you posted. One Footstomp hit 16 targets, for a Brute that can only be 10. Tanker damage is now .95 scale compared to .75 scale, and at damage cap that's 5.7 scale vs 5.8125 scale respectively. 16 targets at .95 scale is 15.2 scale damage done to their combined health.

 

For a Brute to do that much damage to the groups health they would need to have 51 fury -> .75 * 2.02 * 10 = 15.15. That's to match a base damage Footstomp. At the damage cap, the Tanker can output 91.2 scale damage and the brute can output 58.125 scale damage with that Footstomp. That's max. Hard stop, no passing.

 

Not even mentioning the fact Tankers will get to ignore area effect damage rules.

 

There was a reason I told @Leogunner that I was supremely positive this would never happen. That's not right, I don't think I said I was positive it wouldn't happen I believe I said it would never happen, no hedging. As it seems, he was right and I was wrong.

 

I'm also surprised because Castle once told me PBAoE attacks couldn't be affected by range boosts so I didn't see that coming, but that's the smallest surprise here.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, Keen said:

What about Spine Burst's smaller radius tho?

Probably the same as he mentioned about Foot Stomp.  Since the buff only applies to stuff of range 10 or less, the base number was nerfed so that that the buff can, well, buff it (as it will thus now be 20 feet).

[Keen]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

Probably the same as he mentioned about Foot Stomp.  Since the buff only applies to stuff of range 10 or less, the base number was nerfed so that that the buff can, well, buff it (as it will thus now be 20 feet).

Okay, that sounds fair then.

[Captain Powerhouse]

25 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Isn't this going to make those powers noticeably worse at holding aggro compared to damage auras?

The taunt they have is about equivalent to what is provided by the gobal proc.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The taunt they have is about equivalent to what is provided by the gobal proc.

What about them not getting the radius increase?

 

Also noticed a bug with Rage; it's showing the new "weakened" floating text even when you avoid the crash.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Vanden

[5haggy]

As a long-time tank in many games (AC, LOTRO, SWTOR, GW2), please, please don't DPS-up the tanks in this game. One of the stellar attractions of this game is that it has the old-school 'trinity' feel, DPS/tank/healer and not the modern 'everyone is a DPS' bullshit. True tanks don't give a good goddamn about DPS. My shield defense/war mace tank already has way more DPS than tanks in other games. A true tank doesn't care if he or she does zero DPS as long as we hold aggro, survive and protect our team from danger. You want DPS? Go roll one, there are many, many options in this game. Don't change our tanks, please. Don't ruin this game trying to 'improve' it. Just maintain it. It's very very fine as it is.

[Haijinx]

Its amazing how subjective everyone's perceptions of MMOs are lol.

[SmalltalkJava]

these tanker changes are pretty exciting.   Better is better.

[Amarlex]

Yeah, I'm pretty happy about getting more damage. I don't think it's going to be as huge of a swing as people are imagining, although I really do think increasing the tanker aggro cap is a necessary improvement if you actually wanna make them stronger At Tanking Specifically.

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What about them not getting the radius increase?

 

Also noticed a bug with Rage; it's showing the new "weakened" floating text even when you avoid the crash.

I didn't see if they did or not?  This thread has moved 100mph. 

 

They will have to if you don't want to make ELE, Dark, and FIRE, etc. the boss sets. 

[lobster]

26 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I considered giving tankers a red bar that would fill as they get aggro/attacked, but that would had honestly changed too much the current flavor of the tanker, and make them feel way too brute-ish. Like i mentioned before, i dont want the feel of the tanker to change, or force, any new behavior.

Hmmm.  OK. I can see this.  Is there way to reward the current playstyle (which, I guess, is just "use whatever attacks you want based on no criteria?  What are you defining as the "current flavor"?), but still bring in some kind of theme or flavor?

 

Having it scale based on how many targets are aggrod?  I dunno, I just want it to be something that makes you feel more like a tanker, not just a damage buff (because that's what this translates to - hitting more targets = putting out more damage (and debuffs)).  You can have it give the exact mechanical thing you want, but tie it to ...something and I think (maybe I'm wrong, what do others think?)  that having it tied to something - and be a pure reward/buff - will feel better than just a flat buff?

 

 

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

I didn't see if they did or not?  This thread has moved 100mph. 

 

They will have to if you don't want to make ELE, Dark, and FIRE, etc. the boss sets. 

From my testing Invincibility doesn't seem to have improved range.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Vanden said:

From my testing Invincibility doesn't seem to have improved range.

This seems like a balance issue then.  

[donobeastson]

2 hours ago, Amatyr said:

That leads to a possible argument of letting everyone pick 1st/2nd for their secondary. Which, I think, would generally be OK - I believe the old argument against it was that Stalkers could self-gimp by missing out on Hide, but really, if someone goes and screws up that much I think it's on their shoulders...

I know it's the wrong thread for this, but perhaps stalkers could get Hide as an inherent power much like khelds get fly/tp right out the gate.

[Tater Todd]

*Heavy Breathing* "This pleases me."  *fires up MIDS*