DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[William Valence]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

1) Psychological change. If you've got 20% recharge buff, do you -really- need a click-recharge buff for 25% that recharges 3 minutes later? Sure you do, if you're building a recharge build. But for a lot of people who aren't -specifically- trying to build for recharge it appears less needed on it's face. It even looks like it's been nerfed with a 45% total, before double stacking.

Here's my problem with that.

 

Do you -really- need a click recharge buff?

 

Probably. If you don't have the recharge values needed to make your attack chain work, or your key powers hit perma status, then yes. If the 20% passive power is good enough though:

23 minutes ago, William Valence said:

It would be more likely to increase power than reduce it.

 

If the things you can do with perma-hasten can be done with inherant hasten replacement, and you get additional pool/power options on top of that, you're making a change for the sole purpose of allowing for hasten level results without having to spent the power/pool picks to get them.

 

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

2) It also helps to level the playing field for people who don't take Hasten, bringing the bottom up while not really moving the top very much.

It does. But it does that by giving a power effect of a power selection without having to take that power. That's something I'm not the biggest fan of. +Rech is universal, so a +rech power is obviously going to be more popular than a Placate, Fear, or Stealth power. I don't think that fact warrants giving everyone free +rech powers, and if someones concept is more terrifying presence than speedy, then part of the game is weighing the opportunity costs of power selection.

 

This makes hasten stronger and not hasten stronger, just so people don't feel like they're missing out on the stats when they don't take hasten.

[Snakebit]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Yep. Even with these proposed changes I'd expect Hasten to be something that 90% of builds still pick up at some point.

I could see something in IO's. 

 

LotG Global recharge: If Hasten 7.5% global if not Hasten 9.5% recharge. 

 

Same with every set recharge bonus would be ok with me. Let people build to hasten levels if they don't want to take one power. 

[Steampunkette]

Everyone HAS TO take at least 2 pool powers by level 30. You don't have a Choice unless you're an EAT.

 

Right now, there's one power that is a 70% bonus to Recharge. It's -huge-. There's nothing that can compete with it.

 

But a 25% bonus to recharge...? That's something other stuff could compete with. Unless you're planning a recharge-centric build where you need as much as you can get.

 

Yeah, people who are gonna go Recharge-Heavy are gonna get it and double stack it and continue playing the game like they have. But new players? New Builds? Maybe not.

 

 

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Starforge said:

Which is funny because I thought the point of this thread was too many people take Hasten? If that's still going to be the case, why not just make it inherent like the Fitness pool?

you need the required reading thread. AKA the thread that birthed this one

 

 

[DR_Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Which is funny because I thought the point of this thread was too many people take Hasten? If that's still going to be the case, why not just make it inherent like the Fitness pool?

Yup suggested that but didn't get told why it's a bad idea since it just creates a new baseline of 'normal'.

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

you need the required reading thread. AKA the thread that birthed this one

 

 

I'll have to check that out later. Is it half as entertaining as this one?

[TheAdjustor]

3 minutes ago, Starforge said:

I'll have to check that out later. Is it half as entertaining as this one?

It's a hoot especially when you compare positions in this thread with those in that one.

 

Edit: You'll also understand why I quote almost everything I reply to in these threads.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Corruption]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

Everyone HAS TO take at least 2 pool powers by level 30. You don't have a Choice unless you're an EAT.

 

Right now, there's one power that is a 70% bonus to Recharge. It's -huge-. There's nothing that can compete with it.

 

But a 25% bonus to recharge...? That's something other stuff could compete with. Unless you're planning a recharge-centric build where you need as much as you can get.

 

Yeah, people who are gonna go Recharge-Heavy are gonna get it and double stack it and continue playing the game like they have. But new players? New Builds? Maybe not.

 

 

The thing is, the way the game is designed, recharge is the single most effective way to build a character. You'll still have the same high percentage of level 50's taking the power.

 

Personally, all of my characters have permahasten.

[Zepp]

This would affect a lot of builds. Many builds have more recharge than they actually need so that they can perma hasten. with this change they could actually move some of their IOs around and focus on improving resistance, defense, or damage. It could also open the door to proc builds being even more the new meta. There are market implications as well.

I'm not against it per se, but it would have so many unintended consequences that it would be very difficult to deal with the repercussions.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Corruption said:

The thing is, the way the game is designed, recharge is the single most effective way to build a character. You'll still have the same high percentage of level 50's taking the power.

 

Personally, all of my characters have permahasten.

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

The thing is, recharge is about the only stat that suffers from diminishing returns (that and mez resistance but that's kinda lol) just based on the mechanics of the game, which means more recharge is less useful the more you have. It's already balancing itself.

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

That's what happens when you screw with things without doing the work needed to make a case.  It's a COMPLEX game. There is no way you can call this shallow or simple.  It may look that way at first but it changes rapidly and there's many pieces that all link together.

 

Changing stuff just isn't a matter of "Oh that's too good, or that's really bad". Powers are part of sets they have effects on other abilities and there has to be limits on how high things can go.

 

Some of the worst changes to the game looked innocuous.

1) Trying to make the devouring earth and praetorians more serious threats by giving them +to hit (as every resist based build cheered)

2) Adding superstunners to the freakshow and nerfing the bonus rewards for killing them on res (squishies wept, people who played a more or less straightforward game wondered why, and farmers just plowed on not caring at all)

3) "Fixing" melee pets by destroying every pet in the game's ability to take advantage of recharge. (still trying to work out that one)

[DR_Mechano]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

Sometimes you're just going to have an idea that doesn't work out, best to just shelve this and move on.

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Snakebit]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

Why are you so invested in this change that a disagreement from internet strangers demoralizes you?

 

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing. Some people are passionate about that, more passionate than you are about changing it. If you want to change a core feature of the game...something that's been around since Day 1...you better have a really good argument on why it's broken and you better have a really good idea on how to fix it. 

 

So far...and I say this with respect...you haven't provided either. You made an unsubstantiated claim and followed up with a pair of overly complicated fixes that don't...in your own words...actually change anything. You just have to fiddle with crap more. I like my 2 slotted Hasten just fine, tyvm. You haven't even scratched the surface of convincing me that there's a problem that you have the solution for. 

 

[Corruption]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

I mean I assume you posted this on the forums to get feedback and hear people's opinions. 

 

To me it just sounds like change for the sake of change, that's why I'm against it.  It doesn't address the original concern you had regarding the number of players who take the power. It will still be a very good pool power because of just how beneficial recharge is. 

[Infinitum]

42 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Big bad? Being a bit dramatic here aren't we?

nothing better to do.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, cejmp said:

Why are you so invested in this change that a disagreement from internet strangers demoralizes you?

 

It isn't broken and it doesn't need fixing. Some people are passionate about that, more passionate than you are about changing it. If you want to change a core feature of the game...something that's been around since Day 1...you better have a really good argument on why it's broken and you better have a really good idea on how to fix it. 

 

So far...and I say this with respect...you haven't provided either. You made an unsubstantiated claim and followed up with a pair of overly complicated fixes that don't...in your own words...actually change anything. You just have to fiddle with crap more. I like my 2 slotted Hasten just fine, tyvm. You haven't even scratched the surface of convincing me that there's a problem that you have the solution for. 

 

This sums it up nicely

[Haijinx]

The number of people who take it is probably a pretty good indicator of how Powerful it is.

 

Thing is there is no point changing it without nerfing it.

 

Nerfing it isnt worth it.

[Zepp]

Another point, Burnout and Whirlwind are among the least popular pool powers out there, if you were to replace Hasten you would need three new powers rather than one because replacing one power would justify an overhaul of the pool, which would mean replacing the useless Burnout and the unpopular Whirlwind as well...

[Snakebit]

Just now, Zepp said:

Another point, Burnout and Whirlwind are among the least popular pool powers out there, if you were to replace Hasten you would need three new powers rather than one because replacing one power would justify an overhaul of the pool, which would mean replacing the useless Burnout and the unpopular Whirlwind as well...

Aim+BU+Inferno+Burnout != useless my friend. 

[DR_Mechano]

5 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Another point, Burnout and Whirlwind are among the least popular pool powers out there, if you were to replace Hasten you would need three new powers rather than one because replacing one power would justify an overhaul of the pool, which would mean replacing the useless Burnout and the unpopular Whirlwind as well...

 

Now Burnout isn't useless I honestly think its not taken because its so deep in the Super Speed tree and Super speed is the third most popular travel power. Most people will take flight or Super Leap because they enable you to get around easily.

 

Also Gang war>Burnout>Gang war or as the above mentioned combo that enables a Blaster to nuke something with aim+BU+nuke and then burnout to reset all its cooldowns.

[Steampunkette]

17 minutes ago, Corruption said:

I mean I assume you posted this on the forums to get feedback and hear people's opinions. 

 

To me it just sounds like change for the sake of change, that's why I'm against it.  It doesn't address the original concern you had regarding the number of players who take the power. It will still be a very good pool power because of just how beneficial recharge is. 

I posted it on the forums to get feedback. To get some kind of idea of how to change something that is -clearly- overpowered.

 

Like. There's literally no better example of something that is way more powerful than it's contemporaries than Hasten. I don't think there's a single person who could earnestly argue that Punch or Kick is anywhere near as strong as Hasten. Or Aid Self or Aid Other. Certainly not Combat Jumping as iron-hard as people would grasp on -that- power.

 

Instead I've got "It shouldn't change and you're greedy for wanting to change it" or "This is change for change's sake" or "Why would you try to fix something that isn't broken when there's other broken stuff?" and a heaping helping of "LoL R U SRS?! Lemme post some obvious bait or make jokes about you as a person instead of entertaining the idea of offering any kind of actual discussion!"

 

Like holy fucking shit, folks, this one power gives you a 70% Recharge Time Bonus. That affects IT'S OWN RECHARGE TIME. Compare that to any of the other power pool tier 1 and 2 powers and it's painfully obviously stronger than all of them.

 

But there are still people who will argue 'til they're as blue as these forums that it's not OP. That it's perfect how it is. That 83% of level 50 characters using it is -fine- and if we're gonna make any changes we should make all the other power pools have at least one power that is -JUST- as strong to balance it out. It certainly brings Parity, I'll grant you, but it sure as fuck won't Balance anything.

 

And others who admit it's OP but still don't want any changes because they build their characters around this pillar of being OP.

 

It's not change for the sake of change. It's change for the sake of making the "Must Have" power into something less. Either as an inherent for everyone, like Stamina got changed (But no one wants that 'cause it's 50% less total recharge rate) or a much smaller change meant to provide a superficial nerf in order to sway people from always choosing it by reducing the -apparent- bonus (But not the functional one) while elevating all other characters up a bit to make the OPness of this one power stand out a -little- bit less.

 

Yeah, people who build their characters around Hasten are still gonna do it. But I refuse to believe that 83% of level 50 characters are -all- building optimum chains by maxing out their recharge when it's much more likely that a portion of them (Possibly a significant portion) just took hasten because it was the biggest buff in the available pools and they -had- to take at least 2 pool powers.

[Rylas]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

After continued discussion I have revamped my suggestion to the following:

 

1) Lower Hasten's Cooldown to 200 Seconds

2) Lower Hasten's Recharge Rate Buff to 25%

3) Grant all players a +20% Recharge Rate Buff starting at level 1

Hmm. Now that's interesting. Tell me, what advantages would this have in build making? I'm lazy, sorry, so how much global recharge would be needed to double stack Hasten in this scenario? How might this open up builds for persuing other bonuses? 

 

I'd be willing to entertain the idea if it brought real diversity opportunities while not gutting builds that people have long been invested in. 

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

I posted it on the forums to get feedback. To get some kind of idea of how to change something that is -clearly- overpowered.

 

Yeah clearly. / sarcam

 

Nothing but nothing in this game is OP on its own.   Recharge especially not so

 

10 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:

Recharge for most people is generally very deep into the land of diminishing returns.

Example  a 10 second recharge  power

0% Recharge : 10 seconds

60% Recharge : 6.25 seconds (typical set slotting)

80% Recharge: 5.55 seconds

100% Recharge : 5 seconds

120% Recharge: 4.5 seconds

140% Recharge :  4.17

160% Recharge :  3.85

180% Recharge :  3.57

200% Recharge :  3.33

230% Recharge :  3.03 (Perma hasten and 60% in power recharge)

260% Recharge:   2.78 ( adding a full 30% as a power pick to that)

400% Recharge :  2.0

 

You just don't get that much from additional recharge.  Once you have enough to run your optimal attack chains and a little extra to cover debuffs it's not that particularly important at all.

 

Some sort of recharge global would be very nice for people that don't want to take hasten, it's practically a forced pick but do want to be able to run their attack chains.

People tried to give you information in that thread. The above is there plain and simple you just chose to ignore it.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor
corrected a typo

[Steampunkette]

30 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Hmm. Now that's interesting. Tell me, what advantages would this have in build making? I'm lazy, sorry, so how much global recharge would be needed to double stack Hasten in this scenario? How might this open up builds for persuing other bonuses? 

 

I'd be willing to entertain the idea if it brought real diversity opportunities while not gutting builds that people have long been invested in. 

Well, firstly you could get Permahasten by slotting 2 Recharge IOs. That would be +45% Recharge at all times with a brief window of +70%. With recharge slotting, you could get it to completely double stacked, for +70% Recharge, the same as Hasten currently has, and with about the same slotting you'd need for permadom, which is (total) around 120%. This Hasten would provide 45% so you'd need a total of around 75% recharge from slotting and/or other powers (Like Quickness). So, really, builds that already exist wouldn't change at all.

 

So balancing around SOs Hasten would get nerfed to a 25% recharge, -technically- and functionally it would be nerfed to a 45% recharge, but it would be much easier to get Permahasten at the lower value. 

 

So out of the gate it would elevate everyone who doesn't have or take hasten slightly, and it would make hasten -appear- to be a much smaller recharge buff than it has been. Which means people who aren't super build saavy or huge on big recharge numbers for optimal attack chains would be more likely to consider other powers by comparison.

 

But for the people who -are- big on the recharge, or who plan to do an 'Optimal Attack Chain' build, it wouldn't change at all.

 

There would be little to no change for months. But over time, I feel like there would be people taking other powers instead of Hasten, even though it didn't -actually- get nerfed. Well. Other than the "Double Stack Start Time".

Edited September 26, 2019 by Steampunkette