DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Zepp]

25 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

 

Now Burnout isn't useless I honestly think its not taken because its so deep in the Super Speed tree and Super speed is the third most popular travel power. Most people will take flight or Super Leap because they enable you to get around easily.

 

Also Gang war>Burnout>Gang war or as the above mentioned combo that enables a Blaster to nuke something with aim+BU+nuke and then burnout to reset all its cooldowns.

Of course I know it isn't completely useless. It is extremely niche, but not useless. That being said, it could do with an update.

[MunkiLord]

19 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

And others who admit it's OP but still don't want any changes because they build their characters around this pillar of being OP.

This is me. Any change that is going to impact every single character I have, I need a concrete reason why it would benefit me, not other players or the game as a whole, but me. This doesn't mean other people don't matter or shouldn't be considered, just that I am absolutely and openly looking out for myself before others. If a change is something that could have a potential dramatic impact on my playtime literally every single time I a mission/TF/trial, I want to know what I get out of it. Some will call my attitude on this topic selfish, and they would be correct.

 

If such a change would have no notable impact on me, then I don't care either way. If it benefits me, cool, but I think the current power levels are good so that wouldn't mean much to me. Though I obviously wouldn't complain. If it would have a negative impact on me, I'm out. Negative impact includes needing to respec all my characters to regain previous power levels(though your modified suggestion doesn't fall into that category as far as I can tell).

[MunkiLord]

13 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

There would be little to no change for months. But over time, I feel like there would be people taking other powers instead of Hasten, even though it didn't -actually- get nerfed. Well. Other than the "Double Stack Start Time".

Much like click mez protections, this isn't something that would matter to me. I guess it would if I was trying to maximize a pylon time or something like that, but that isn't something I do often. Plus I'd just adapt and try to work out the best timing for clicking it when testing a build.

[Steampunkette]

29 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Yeah clearly. / sarcam

 

Nothing but nothing in this game is OP on its own.   Recharge especially not so

 

People tried to give you information in that thread. The above is there plain and simple you just chose to ignore it.

Adjustor I've got you on ignore because you started out at 'Rude' in our encounters and went downhill from there. When I respond to you it's because I am making a posts and the "1+ new replies" thing pops up and when I click it and it shows your post distorted as shit instead of not showing your post at all.

 

And yeah. Recharge has minimal effect on short-recharge powers with 10 seconds or less. Meanwhile shit like Build Up, Mass Holds, Lightning Rods, and shit all -significantly- benefit from having their recharge rate slashed. Lightning Rods starts at 90 seconds. With 2 Recharge IOs it's down to 49. With Hasten it's 35 seconds. That's 14 seconds off the recharge rate, roughly 2/5 of the remaining recharge time.

 

It's almost like you're choosing short-recharge powers specifically to try and minimize the impact... Weird that.

 

Figures don't lie, though, right?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Steampunkette

[TheAdjustor]

43 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Adjustor I've got you on ignore because you started out at 'Rude' in our encounters and went downhill from there. When I respond to you it's because I am making a posts and get the "1+ new replies" thing pops up and when click it and it shows your post distorted as shit instead of not showing your post at all.

 

And yeah. Recharge has minimal effect on short-recharge powers with 10 seconds or less. Meanwhile shit like Build Up, Mass Holds, Lightning Rods, and shit all -significantly- benefit from having their recharge rate slashed. Lightning Rods starts at 90 seconds. With 2 Recharge IOs it's down to 49. With Hasten it's 35 seconds. That's 14 seconds off the recharge rate, roughly 2/5 of the remaining recharge time.

 

It's almost like you're choosing short-recharge powers specifically to try and minimize the impact... Weird that.

 

Figures don't lie, though, right?

No it peters out after around 150% recharge just like everything else.

 

Just multiply by 10 and a 10 second recharge becomes 100, and a .25 second recharge difference on a 3.5 second recharge becomes 2.5 seconds out of 35

 

Not much at all, seeing as you need at least 100% global recharge for perma hasten, and can slot at least 2 recharge IOs worth of recharge into any given power, your example isn't very good at all.  An uncharitable person would say it's cherry picked.

 

Anyway if you had of actually been looking at what people were telling you, you would have noticed that multiple people told you this multiple times.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor
misplaced decimal left out "for perma hasten"

[Sainguine22]

No

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

I posted it on the forums to get feedback. To get some kind of idea of how to change something that is -clearly- overpowered.

 

Like. There's literally no better example of something that is way more powerful than it's contemporaries than Hasten. I don't think there's a single person who could earnestly argue that Punch or Kick is anywhere near as strong as Hasten. Or Aid Self or Aid Other. Certainly not Combat Jumping as iron-hard as people would grasp on -that- power.

 

Instead I've got "It shouldn't change and you're greedy for wanting to change it" or "This is change for change's sake" or "Why would you try to fix something that isn't broken when there's other broken stuff?" and a heaping helping of "LoL R U SRS?! Lemme post some obvious bait or make jokes about you as a person instead of entertaining the idea of offering any kind of actual discussion!"

 

Like holy fucking shit, folks, this one power gives you a 70% Recharge Time Bonus. That affects IT'S OWN RECHARGE TIME. Compare that to any of the other power pool tier 1 and 2 powers and it's painfully obviously stronger than all of them.

 

But there are still people who will argue 'til they're as blue as these forums that it's not OP. That it's perfect how it is. That 83% of level 50 characters using it is -fine- and if we're gonna make any changes we should make all the other power pools have at least one power that is -JUST- as strong to balance it out. It certainly brings Parity, I'll grant you, but it sure as fuck won't Balance anything.

 

And others who admit it's OP but still don't want any changes because they build their characters around this pillar of being OP.

 

It's not change for the sake of change. It's change for the sake of making the "Must Have" power into something less. Either as an inherent for everyone, like Stamina got changed (But no one wants that 'cause it's 50% less total recharge rate) or a much smaller change meant to provide a superficial nerf in order to sway people from always choosing it by reducing the -apparent- bonus (But not the functional one) while elevating all other characters up a bit to make the OPness of this one power stand out a -little- bit less.

 

Yeah, people who build their characters around Hasten are still gonna do it. But I refuse to believe that 83% of level 50 characters are -all- building optimum chains by maxing out their recharge when it's much more likely that a portion of them (Possibly a significant portion) just took hasten because it was the biggest buff in the available pools and they -had- to take at least 2 pool powers.

Seriously, you need a valium if this upsets you that bad.    Hasten doesnt break the game, and you cant prove it does.  PERIOD

 

You can shout OVERPOWERD this and OVERPOWERED that, and it still doesn change the fact that Hasten isnt breaking the game, or making it less fun, or contributing to power creep, hell if it has its been doing it the whole run though, and we are still here.... choosing hasten, over and over and over again, because its cool.

 

deal with it and find something else to try to break for breakage sake.

[AerialAssault]

4 hours ago, Starforge said:

Which is funny because I thought the point of this thread was too many people take Hasten? If that's still going to be the case, why not just make it inherent like the Fitness pool?

Can't do that Starforge.

 

People might have fun.

[Razor Cure]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

You can shout OVERPOWERD this and OVERPOWERED that, and it still doesn change the fact that Hasten isnt breaking the game, or making it less fun, or contributing to power creep, hell if it has its been doing it the whole run though, and we are still here.... choosing hasten, over and over and over again, because its cool.

Just to weigh in here. Hasten sure does work to Power Creep, since there is NO way that Dominators were made with perma dom in mind..or Melees with permas tier9s (i think some can get this? I saw it in another thread) or Warshades with perma eclipse.

 

4 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

This is me. Any change that is going to impact every single character I have, I need a concrete reason why it would benefit me, not other players or the game as a whole, but me.

A change, in the name of balance (not saying Hasten IS unbalanced but you get teh idea) should not have to be a benefit. Changes can occur both ways.

 

In regard to the actual suggestion..I think it would just cause way to much uproar and 'ruin' all those builds that apparently need Perma Hasten to function (snark'd on purpose)..as well as the people who just like the power. I'd be more in favour of getting rid of Flurry (i mean, really?) and replacing it with an And/Or Passive +rech. power

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Razor Cure

[Lost Ninja]

7 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Because the intent is to make Hasten -look- less attractive.

 

To make it less required.

 

By putting it into the 25% increments it becomes a 'Nice Benefit' for some builds, but not -as- big of one, unless you're looking to push Recharge to the point of double stacking it. It creates a psychological separation. "If I've got 25% already, do I really -need- that other 25% when I could instead take X power from Y pool, instead?"

 

The people who desperately cling to the 70% Recharge bonus would retain their benefit without changing anything they're doing. For the extreme buildmonkeys it would even be a 5% haste buff (That largely means nothing thanks to diminishing returns)...

 

There's also the increased end cost if you do double stack it. It's not a big deal but it is marginally less attractive that way.

Hasten isn't essential by any means. It's very useful as it is. Removing it would be akin to the ED changes, because it is used by so many people and removing it entirely would impact a huge number of people negatively (A Nerf).

 

Changing it as you suggest doesn't address the what you seem to think is an issue though. The only people who would benefit would be those who don't use it now. Everyone else who uses hasten now would just switch over to the new version especially if it is in fact a buff. You're changing a lot of things to in effect preserve the status quo.

 

If you think that removing Hasten entirely (as originally stated) is something that would be good for the game. I will disagree but understand your point. Changing it to be slightly better (IIRC 70% -> 75%) makes zero sense from that standpoint even if it might in a few edge cases open up a spare PP.

[Megajoule]

Personally, I am entirely up for taking the ability to make anything perma out of the game, completely.

[QuiJon]

12 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Oh, no. This isn't about what I want, @QuiJon. You're guessing at my motives and missing wildly. I'm not a minmaxer and, frankly, I never reach the limit of my power pools. I usually take all of my primary and secondary, minus Taunts, Confronts, and Placates, and only grab a handful of pool powers. Hasten and Fighting are usually two of them, with an EPP as the third. But I never use Combat Jumping and only take Leadership for characters who will use both maneuvers -and- assault or tactics... Point is: I've never had a character with 4 pools in my life. Usually I try to get by with 1 or 2, I've never had a permadom (though I have some doms) and I have only one character who has Permahasten and it's a badass humanform PB rawr.

 

I was talking in the "Swift +10% global recharge" thread when I saw that 90% of level 50 players have Hasten. That's an outsized impact by any measure.

 

That's literally the reason that I brought this up. The total and exclusive reason.

 

Also for Permadom you need a total of 123% Recharge Rate. This would be 20% of it off the bat, leaving you with 103% recharge rate required to maintain permadom. Dunno WHERE you got the 160% stuff from... Getting 3 LotGs gets you 22.5, you can get 10% from up to 5 Purple Sets (including the Dominator-Specific sets) which puts you at 72.5% meaning you need only 3 of the 6.25% recharge bonuses and 3 5% recharge bonuses and you're set. 

 

And hey. Since you won't have Hasten, anymore, you can just leave Domination on autocast with no more juggling!

 

I'm not looking at a nerf. I'm looking at a globalization. Everyone gets it, like everyone gained Fitness.

 

Again, not nerfing it because it's good because I'm not suggesting a nerf. I'm suggesting it be removed from the game, -entirely- and that all characters, whether they took hasten or not, get a 20% global recharge buff.

 

Fitness got the same treatment, in fact. It's no longer a power pool, and is instead a Global Grant at level 2, with everyone getting it. I'm suggesting the global setup because giving everyone a power as strong as hasten from level 1 onward seems a bit OP, so I averaged it's function over time.

 

But there has been some decent points brought up about the effects of hasten. 

 

So how about the power we replace Hasten with is an Autopower called "Quick". Always on, no Endurance cost, +15% Recharge Rate. Taking that power would be roughly equivalent to having Hasten 2-slotted for Recharge Rate. And while it might still be -super- popular at high end, it wouldn't be more powerful than slotting 2 LotG powers, and most people wouldn't 'need' it for their builds because they're already getting the +20% baseline increase.

 

 

Permanent dom you need 123 percent on top of hasten. Take into account you need enough of a dom overlap to get it activated again. But point is still who cares. Why should I have to give up how I like my characters cause you th think a power is too good. Hoe about if you dont like it then YOU dont take it. I alot of times only take stealth and maneuvers from those pools should we nerf those also. Fitness required 3 power selections to get the only power anyone cared about  having th hat is why it was m as de inherent. So how about just make your own characters take the powers you like and stop pissing on what other people like cause you dont care for it.

[Lost Ninja]

7 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The fact that 83% of level 50 characters use Hasten shows that it's either overpowered or all of it's contemporaries are underpowered, Mechano.

 

It's the single most extreme outlier among power pool choices there is. Nearly -everyone- takes Hasten because it's too good to pass up.

 

I disagree that fixing Energy Melee or Regen is 'More Important'. Those powersets have a significantly lower impact on the game's population than Hasten does. Hasten is used by every single archetype, where EM and Regen are used by 3. It's not really comparable.

I can't be bothered to look but what is the percentage of levels 50s that have a travel power? (SJ, SS, Fly or Teleport). I'm betting that that figure is much higher than 83%. Shouldn't they also be moved to inherent? 

 

edit: Not intended as a Strawman but as a sly dig at the OP who think Travel Powers shouldn't be made inherent at level 1...

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lost Ninja

[Lost Ninja]

5 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.

 

I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"

 

I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.

 

The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.

 

It's really demoralizing.

The first one went too far and would in effect be a global nerf to everyone who takes Hasten now, I can't believe that you wouldn't have spotted that when you wrote the OP.

 

The second one doesn't actually change anything real and is just psychological. (I have a feeling most non-forum dwellers would see it as a psychological nerf anyway TBH.)

[Lost Ninja]

45 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

ust to weigh in here. Hasten sure does work to Power Creep, since there is NO way that Dominators were made with perma dom in mind..or Melees with permas tier9s (i think some can get this? I saw it in another thread) or Warshades with perma eclipse.

Is it Hasten that is broken or set bonuses and recharge IOs though?

46 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

In regard to the actual suggestion..I think it would just cause way to much uproar and 'ruin' all those builds that apparently need Perma Hasten to function (snark'd on purpose)..as well as the people who just like the power. I'd be more in favour of getting rid of Flurry (i mean, really?) and replacing it with an And/Or Passive +rech. power

I once took Flurry... mostly because I was a Dark/Rgn Scrapper with Sands of Mu, Shadow Maul and Flurry... oh the whiffing was glorious... 😄

[Demon Shell]

11 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

The second one doesn't actually change anything real and is just psychological. (I have a feeling most non-forum dwellers would see it as a psychological nerf anyway TBH.)

Hasten has both a cast time and a crash. Being forced to stack it would be a nerf, unless you could triple stack it (at which point, what does this solve?).

[DSorrow]

5 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

This is me. Any change that is going to impact every single character I have, I need a concrete reason why it would benefit me, not other players or the game as a whole, but me. This doesn't mean other people don't matter or shouldn't be considered, just that I am absolutely and openly looking out for myself before others. If a change is something that could have a potential dramatic impact on my playtime literally every single time I a mission/TF/trial, I want to know what I get out of it. Some will call my attitude on this topic selfish, and they would be correct.

 

If such a change would have no notable impact on me, then I don't care either way. If it benefits me, cool, but I think the current power levels are good so that wouldn't mean much to me. Though I obviously wouldn't complain. If it would have a negative impact on me, I'm out. Negative impact includes needing to respec all my characters to regain previous power levels(though your modified suggestion doesn't fall into that category as far as I can tell).

This is my position, too. If it was a justified negative impact to one of my characters, then no biggie. A significant (well, even a minor one) to all of them, justified or not, is just too much for me personally. 

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Seriously, you need a valium if this upsets you that bad.    Hasten doesnt break the game, and you cant prove it does.  PERIOD

 

You can shout OVERPOWERD this and OVERPOWERED that, and it still doesn change the fact that Hasten isnt breaking the game, or making it less fun, or contributing to power creep, hell if it has its been doing it the whole run though, and we are still here.... choosing hasten, over and over and over again, because its cool.

 

deal with it and find something else to try to break for breakage sake.

Even though I don't want Hasten nerfed, I think it's a completely unreasonable standard that things need to be broken in order to warrant a nerf. Besides that, I don't think it's even possible to "prove" anything is broken unless it literally makes you invincible or something similar. The flip side of this argument would be that anything doesn't need to be improved unless it's completely and factually useless which is equally silly.

 

Hasten definitely warrants a nerf based on the numbers because it's blatantly obvious that it's far too good for a T1 pool power. However, nerfing it would impact so many characters that it would cause a huge outcry (I mean, just look at this thread where it's only proposed...) and I don't think that would be worth the gain in balance. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by DSorrow

[Lost Ninja]

1 hour ago, Demon Shell said:

Hasten has both a cast time and a crash. Being forced to stack it would be a nerf, unless you could triple stack it (at which point, what does this solve?).

I was basing this on the OPs assertion that her newly revised version of Hasten would be pretty much identical to the original version. Ergo pretty much a waste of time.

[Steampunkette]

2 hours ago, QuiJon said:

Permanent dom you need 123 percent on top of hasten. Take into account you need enough of a dom overlap to get it activated again. But point is still who cares. Why should I have to give up how I like my characters cause you th think a power is too good. Hoe about if you dont like it then YOU dont take it. I alot of times only take stealth and maneuvers from those pools should we nerf those also. Fitness required 3 power selections to get the only power anyone cared about  having th hat is why it was m as de inherent. So how about just make your own characters take the powers you like and stop pissing on what other people like cause you dont care for it.

You're wrong about permadom.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Perma

At 123% it overlaps by -just- enough to make it perma if you have it on autocast. Every point beyond 123% makes it easier to ensure it never falls off, but 123% is the magicn umber on it's own.

 

The rest of your post, here, is a bunch of ad-hominem attacks, strawmen arguments, and a big ol' either/or fallacy. So I won't be addressing it.

2 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

I can't be bothered to look but what is the percentage of levels 50s that have a travel power? (SJ, SS, Fly or Teleport). I'm betting that that figure is much higher than 83%. Shouldn't they also be moved to inherent? 

 

edit: Not intended as a Strawman but as a sly dig at the OP who think Travel Powers shouldn't be made inherent at level 1...

17,355 have Fly

25,729 have Super Jump

23,968 have Super Speed

2,761 have Teleport

 

53,870 have Hasten.

 

There are 60,348 level 50 characters. The impact of Hasten is outsized even related to travel powers. Twice as many people have Hasten as literally -any- Travel Powers.

 

Also your dig isn't sly. It's just -really- weaksauce.

1 hour ago, Lost Ninja said:

The first one went too far and would in effect be a global nerf to everyone who takes Hasten now, I can't believe that you wouldn't have spotted that when you wrote the OP.

 

The second one doesn't actually change anything real and is just psychological. (I have a feeling most non-forum dwellers would see it as a psychological nerf anyway TBH.)

 

Too far? I disagree. But it would be a nerf to everyone who takes Hasten -and- Stacks Recharge toward Permahasten. Which is a smaller portion of the population and a vocal portion of the Forum Base.

 

I have a feeling if there was an announcement in the Beta Patch Notes about a "Hasten Revamp" that shortened it's recharge bonus and reduced it's duration, and a nearby note that everyone would get a 20% recharge, the Patch Notes Thread would be swamped with "WHY ARE YOU NERFING HASTEN INTO THE GROUND?!" pretty much instantly.

 

Even if, as demonstrated, here, it wouldn't functionally change much of anything for the high end function of Hasten while providing a global buff to everyone who doesn't take Hasten.

 

1 hour ago, Lost Ninja said:

Is it Hasten that is broken or set bonuses and recharge IOs though?

I once took Flurry... mostly because I was a Dark/Rgn Scrapper with Sands of Mu, Shadow Maul and Flurry... oh the whiffing was glorious... 😄

Both. In a vacuum, either would be fine. In a world where Hasten was an autopower with a lower value, like Quickness, both would be fine.

 

But as a power pick in a game where you can create a feedback loop of power that affects your entire character... it's not so fine. It stands out like a giant, vaguely flaming, thumb where it is massively more valuable than it's contemporaries. That is to say T1 and T2 Power Pool Choices.

 

I earnestly believe that when Sets were introduced Hasten should've been changed into an autopower granting 20% increased recharge, globally. It would still probably be taken to a larger degree than other powers, particularly by Dominators... but it wouldn't have had such an overwhelming impact to builds and build designs to the point where it is largely viewed as nigh-mandatory.

 

This is a problem. There will always be people who say it isn't one because 'it's not hurting anyone' or whatever, but it is a problem. It represents an extreme value disparity that results in 83% of players at 50 tanking this one power. People love to talk about how there should be 'More build variety', but so long as Hasten is around, providing it's feedback loop of recharge rate, that will continue to be the surest path to power.

 

... But now I think I understand why Paragon Studios -didn't-. And it wasn't because it's no big deal. Or that it's not broken. It's because of the Backlash that would've come from it.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Steampunkette

[EmmySky]

1.  I never took hasten on live on any of my toons.  Up until 2 days ago I never took hasten on any of my HC toons.  I made a baby fire farmer and she needed that heal to come up faster so she got hasten and I added it to my PB yesterday because human only PB have small attack chains.  If there is a change to hasten or, what I believe to be suggested here, a global recharge buff added inherently, I would mostly benefit.

 

2.  I think the number of characters with hasten =/= the number of players with hasten.  I know a lot of folks who never take it but these are also the types to not rush to 50 or rush to have multiple 50s.  If there are 10 players and 6 do not take hasten bit only have 1 lvl 50 each and the other 4 players always take hasten and have 2 (or more) lvl 50 each then you get the discrepancy between character numbers and player numbers.

 

3. Lately, I have seen and heard several complaints about just taking one power from a pool and burning an entire pool choice for it and it should be inherent so we dont have to burn a pool choice.  What if we just opened up pool choices to 5 (or 6 or no limit)?  It might allow power creep (but so would many suggestions I have read) but it would also allow Power Pool Man to really gimp himself to his hearts desire (for personal challenge).

 

4.  I believe strategy comes into play with the limit of pools available and if you really want to burn a pool by choosing only one power from it, that's a strategic decision you make for your character.  Making everything inherent just takes away the actual thinking and strategizing about if you really need that power or would be better (concept or strength) by going another route.  With more options, people can limit themselves to the original 4 or even less or use every pool there is.  

 

While the suggested change (of this thread and others) would either not effect me or would benefit me, by and large, I disagree with removing choices and am actually for (pro) keeping or adding to the choices we have to build our characters in a unique (or not) way.

 

Ps...pls excuse typos...my phone keyboard is really small.

Edited September 26, 2019 by EmmySky

[Lost Ninja]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

17,355 have Fly

25,729 have Super Jump

23,968 have Super Speed

2,761 have Teleport

 

53,870 have Hasten.

So 69k people take a travel power, of 60k. So many take more than one (I'd be interested to know if the figures exist to show how many take none), Hasten is only taken 53k, and while you can certainly argue that I cannot lump all travel powers into a single "pick", they all share a function, they all do the same thing, they all require just one power to be picked & require you to burn a Pool to do so. 

 

Is Hasten powerful? Yes.

Is Hasten too easy to make permanent? Perhaps, but then the issue isn't Hasten but how Set bonuses and global recharges work.

Why then is your ire aimed at Hasten?

Remove +Recharge IOs and Set Bonuses instead.

 

14 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Too far? I disagree. But it would be a nerf to everyone who takes Hasten -and- Stacks Recharge toward Permahasten. Which is a smaller portion of the population and a vocal portion of the Forum Base.

The Original Post was "Delete Hasten" that would affect everyone who used it whether they then stacked recharge or not. Which is way too far. And if it isn't, which you now seem to suggest, why on earth did you water it down to your 2nd attempt at fixing it?

19 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I have a feeling if there was an announcement in the Beta Patch Notes about a "Hasten Revamp" that shortened it's recharge time and reduced it's duration, and a nearby note that everyone would get a 20% recharge, the Patch Notes Thread would be swamped with "WHY ARE YOU NERFING HASTEN INTOTHE GROUND?!" pretty much instantly.

Hence why I implied it was a psychological nerf. If the "nerf" merely changes how a power works without actually functionally changing it why even bother with the change? If the change in the patch-notes was: "Hasten is being split into an un-enhance-able inherent that grants a flat +20 recharge to all characters, and a Speed Pool Power that grants a 50% +recharge. With the intention of allowing people to not take the Pool Power if they wish while allowing those who want to retain their 70% +recharge." It would do nothing to prevent the vast majority of people still taking hasten leading to a retread of this thread in a few months.

31 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

... But now I think I understand why Paragon Studios -didn't-. And it wasn't because it's no big deal. Or that it's not broken. It's because of the Backlash that would've come from it.

Cryptic managed it with ED. And people left the game because of it. If the current devs remove or drastically change Hasten I would fully expect that to happen again. Hell I know I'd be looking at the alternatives and I don't see Hasten as an Essential Power. It does rather sound like Cryptic and especially Statesman (the Dev) "Play the game the way we say...". 

[Starforge]

27 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

The Original Post was "Delete Hasten" that would affect everyone who used it whether they then stacked recharge or not. Which is way too far. And if it isn't, which you now seem to suggest, why on earth did you water it down to your 2nd attempt at fixing it?

This is what still gets me about why this thread is still a thing. The original suggestion was changed into something that basically keeps Hasten the same but with a lot of extra steps.

[MunkiLord]

4 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

A change, in the name of balance (not saying Hasten IS unbalanced but you get teh idea) should not have to be a benefit. Changes can occur both ways.

 

I’ve already addressed this. If a change impacts every single one of my characters, I care about that more than balance or other players. 

 

3 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Personally, I am entirely up for taking the ability to make anything perma out of the game, completely.

Must be awesome to hate fun. 

[Steampunkette]

50 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

So 69k people take a travel power, of 60k. So many take more than one (I'd be interested to know if the figures exist to show how many take none), Hasten is only taken 53k, and while you can certainly argue that I cannot lump all travel powers into a single "pick", they all share a function, they all do the same thing, they all require just one power to be picked & require you to burn a Pool to do so. 

 

Is Hasten powerful? Yes.

Is Hasten too easy to make permanent? Perhaps, but then the issue isn't Hasten but how Set bonuses and global recharges work.

Why then is your ire aimed at Hasten?

Remove +Recharge IOs and Set Bonuses instead.

 

The Original Post was "Delete Hasten" that would affect everyone who used it whether they then stacked recharge or not. Which is way too far. And if it isn't, which you now seem to suggest, why on earth did you water it down to your 2nd attempt at fixing it?

Hence why I implied it was a psychological nerf. If the "nerf" merely changes how a power works without actually functionally changing it why even bother with the change? If the change in the patch-notes was: "Hasten is being split into an un-enhance-able inherent that grants a flat +20 recharge to all characters, and a Speed Pool Power that grants a 50% +recharge. With the intention of allowing people to not take the Pool Power if they wish while allowing those who want to retain their 70% +recharge." It would do nothing to prevent the vast majority of people still taking hasten leading to a retread of this thread in a few months.

Cryptic managed it with ED. And people left the game because of it. If the current devs remove or drastically change Hasten I would fully expect that to happen again. Hell I know I'd be looking at the alternatives and I don't see Hasten as an Essential Power. It does rather sound like Cryptic and especially Statesman (the Dev) "Play the game the way we say...". 

1) Yeah, 69k out of 60k. There's a lot of people who combine SS and SJ. *shrug!* I guess if you're already going for CJ and Hasten you might as well, right?

 

2) The "Ire" is aimed at Hasten because it's the big standout that only becomes unbalancingly powerful when combined with the Set Bonuses. However the Set Bonuses themselves have got a bunch of different gates. The set bonuses are actually pretty well balanced among themselves. But Hasten isn't pretty well balanced among power pools. So while set bonuses are pretty well balanced against each other, this one power interacts with them in a way that unbalances recharge rate. Change 1 power, or change the balance of every set? Rough choice.

 

3) The Original Post was "Delete Hasten and give everyone a flat 20% recharge rate improvement, effectively giving everyone unslotted hasten with it's bonus spread out and turned on at all times instead of cyclically". It would've affected everyone, whether they took hasten or not, by basically giving them unslotted hasten. For those who 2 slotted Hasten for recharge it would've been a net loss of about 12% overall recharge rate. But it only would have had a severe negative impact on the people who stack recharge.

 

4) I offered up the other suggestion, as noted, because the backlash against deleting hasten and applying an autopower +20% recharge buff to everyone. I still firmly believe that hasten is too damned good compared to other pool powers. However people tend to attribute economic values based on what they're seeing rather than what is. If you show that Hasten 'only' gives a 25% recharge rate buff, when attacks are 20% faster than they are, now, it will looks less attractive than a 70% Recharge Rate Buff. And maybe it'll look a little closer to the attractiveness of a 10% damage buff to your whole team, or some other pool power. (Obviously this wouldn't work on the hardcore builders who are going to keep taking Hasten no matter what, but over time it could have an impact on new players, or players who aren't in the hardcore community)

 

 

As far as ED: Yeah. A Bunch of people left. It was a controversial decision. So was the aggro/target cap implementation. That one also cost CoH some players. But was the game itself made healthier for it?

 

Not the community, 'cause you could argue that in a bunch of different ways. But the actual gameplay itself. The build variety. The playstyle shifts. 

 

ED and Target/Aggro caps ultimately made the game more fun than it was, previously. More challenging and engaging, more deep and dangerous. Suddenly the tank had to actually worry about the blaster unintentionally aggroing another group when they're already at the aggro cap and can't taunt the new mob off the Support characters. People had to consider endurance costs, recharge rates, and Arcanatime instead of "LoL, 6-slot Damage!"

 

Honestly... that's a -good- thing. I earnestly don't think people would've played CoH as long as they did without ED, because it encouraged variety of playstyles and goals and tools.

 

+Recharge is so singularly, monolithically, powerful that it narrows down the potential for different styles. Every set now has an "Optimum Attack Chain" that you're supposed to strive for and the only path to it is more recharge.

 

44 minutes ago, Starforge said:

This is what still gets me about why this thread is still a thing. The original suggestion was changed into something that basically keeps Hasten the same but with a lot of extra steps.

What still gets me is that you're still confused by this. I've explained the thought process 4 or 5 times as of this post. Are you not reading them or is it that you don't understand?

 

'Cause I've made it about as simple as I can.

[Lost Ninja]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

What still gets me is that you're still confused by this. I've explained the thought process 4 or 5 times as of this post. Are you not reading them or is it that you don't understand?

 

'Cause I've made it about as simple as I can.

It's not your thought process that is hard to fathom but why you think changing but not changing something will make any difference.