Time or Traps with Bots?

[Odhinn]

I am out the MM for something different than normal for me. For a couple reasons I decided on Bots. I made a Bots/Kin and do not care for the combo.

So, I am trying again. Doing some research it seems that Time and Traps are both good options. I am trying to decide on which one.

 

Hopping on Pineapple I ran a couple tests.

Bots / Traps: Using Protector Bots, Force Field Generator plus Weave, Maneuvers and the two +Def  Unique IOs my defenses are at 43.37 % to everything except Psi. Also I took Tough and Temp Invul giving me S/L resist of 73.23 %. There are no sets in use currently just some Generic IOs. These seem like pretty good numbers to me assuming I stay inside the dispersion bubble. The bots have 41% to all but Psi, (less for the defender bots given they can not bubble themselves).

 

Taking a look at Time I come up with the following. Once more using Weave Maneuvers and the two +Def  Unique IOs along side Farsight that has been Power Boosted my defense is 48.02 to all but Psi. Defenses are 48.18 for the Bots defender bots are at 35.29%. Resist are at S/L 31.49% rest at 8% Once more there are no sets in use currently just some Generic IOs.  If I were to add the Scorpion shield S/L Defense goes to 68.23%

 

Looking at the the sets through my Main Tank brain they both seems like good survivable options. Traps, as tested, seems like it would be really good in Bodyguard mode. 

What other factors should I be looking at? Are the sets similar in the amount of buff or de-buff they can provide? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Lastly, If an MM takes stealth does that mess with his pets or Supremacy?

[Redlynne]

The real distinction between Time and Traps is that Traps will generally favor a more "static" engagement strategy (plant the flag and fight there) while Time is going to be a bit more amenable to a more "mobile" engagement strategy.  You won't really notice this difference all that much while soloing, since you'll be able to moderate your movement speed from group to group and be able to take things at your own pace ... but in a team context you'll find that the location specific powers of Traps will limit their usefulness, while Time will tend to "go with the flow" and keep up with the steamroller a bit better.

 

Both sets have their strengths and weaknesses, not to mention edge cases in which they'll excel relative to the alternative.  But in general, Time "loses less" by being mobile than Traps does.

[Ry]

While my experience with Time Manipulation is very limited, I -do- have quite a nice amount of experience with Traps for Masterminds, and Detonator is an extremely satisfying power. Along with the bonus pets like Acid Mortar and Force Field Generator! Its a very fun and viable set, lots of nice bonuses here and there. Its by no means perfect but I'd say I prefer Traps on a Mastermind compared to any other AT. I'd suggest looking up the pros/cons of each set and thinking about what suits your playstyle!

[ParaBruce]

As usual, @Redlynneleaves me with not much to say beyond "yes, that". 🙂 I do want to emphasize the mobility matter. Groups move more and faster than they did on live now, I think. I found /traps kind of frustrating for that reason any time I was doing a mission or task force. But then the usual caveat applies: people have different experiences - it turns out we're not all the same. (As Scottish sf writer Charlie Stross says, "If we all had the same tastes, what a haggis shortage there would be!") It's a thing to be aware of, is all.

 

[Shoulung]

Some of dark miasma’s debuff are stationary which has caused me issues when fighting AVs, and traps is going to have the same issue with the run happy fools. For that reason alone I’d favor time, though I do believe one of their three debuffs is also a stationary targeted aoe. One bots combo I’m currently testing out is with sonic, as it does the same thing as FF, but for resist instead of defense, and also has some debuffage. Considering I can already help out pets defense via leadership (not a ton, granted) seems like an interesting course to pursue.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Shoulung
Word change, spacing

[Odhinn]

Thanks for the replies.

I am uncertain what my play style would be. From the looks of it I think I will try out traps and see how that goes.

[Purrfekshawn]

Traps are better synergized with Robotics, because there's a trick - if you affect your Force Field Generator with Both Equip Robot and Upgrade Robot - upon resummoning while old one is active it will produce AoE, that will equip/upgrade robots within its area. This is extremely useful for upgrading newly resummoned robots, if some of them got defeated. Just need to have macro with timer, that will signal you when Force Field Generator is about to expire (l use it), resummon it when it signals.

 

Both Traps and Time powersets have their strengths and weaknesses:

Traps' advangates are:

Traps provides -1000% REGEN most of time which is enough to flatline AV/Giant Monster Regen. Time doesn't have that strong -REGEN.

Traps provides -60% overall resistance debuff through 3 acid mortar lingering debuffs, while time - only 27% (slowed responce on Time Crawled boss).

Traps has Damage component in most of its powers, while Time Manipulation powers don't do any damage at all. That damage isn't big, but it triggers Incarnate Interface.

Traps Force Field Generator has anti-mez component in it. Time doesn't have Antimez powers in it.

Traps Poison Trap instantly mezzes all enemies, while Time AoE mez is RNG-based.

Traps places extra entities on battlefield (Acid Mortars, FFG, seeker drones), those may add to enemy's AoE max hit counter and through that provide indirect protection to teammates.

 

Time however, has following advantages:

Farsight buffs allies' ToHit Stat.

Time Stop can lower enemy's HEALING output. It's probably only power in game that does it (except Cold Domination secondary debuff and like that).

Time has active AoE heal (compared to continuous Triage Beacons), it consumes your uptime, but also gives higher burst.

Time can buff Recharge Time of allies via Chrono Shift.

Time has strong single Target mez (Time Stop).

 

Mah opinion is Traps work better on Masterminds, because as a mastermind you will likely buff defense/res of pets through Enhancements, and attackable Entities from Traps powersets are buffed by those Enhancements too. Time, however, works better on toon, that has Crowd Control on it, or just any support toon. Time doesn't buff DAMAGE of team much, but it gives solid protection (comparing to e.g. Kinetics which does opposite).

 

l have Robotics/Traps MM (Main) and Gravity/Time Controller. They're both thematic toons.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Purrfekshawn

[Ry]

29 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Traps are better synergized with Robotics, because there's a trick - if you affect your Force Field Generator with Both Equip Robot and Upgrade Robot - upon resummoning while old one is active it will produce AoE, that will equip/upgrade robots within its area. This is extremely useful for upgrading newly resummoned robots, if some of them got defeated. Just need to have macro with timer, that will signal you when Force Field Generator is about to expire (l use it), resummon it when it signals.

Is that a hax? Or was that an intended thing? Curious!

[Purrfekshawn]

Just now, Ry said:

Is that a hax? Or was that an intended thing? Curious!

It's a ninja synergy.

[Ry]

Cool! 😄

[Dr Causality]

6 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Traps are better synergized with Robotics, because there's a trick - if you affect your Force Field Generator with Both Equip Robot and Upgrade Robot - upon resummoning while old one is active it will produce AoE, that will equip/upgrade robots within its area. This is extremely useful for upgrading newly resummoned robots, if some of them got defeated. Just need to have macro with timer, that will signal you when Force Field Generator is about to expire (l use it), resummon it when it signals.

 

 

I don't understand what you're gaining or doing here??      

 

Are you just saying this is a workaround for upgrading all pets at once?    If so, then towards the end of live,  quality of life changes to MM's made the pet upgrades AOE.   Long gone are the days of needing to individually buff each pet...

[plainguy]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:53 AM, Dr Causality said:

 

I don't understand what you're gaining or doing here??      

 

Are you just saying this is a workaround for upgrading all pets at once?    If so, then towards the end of live,  quality of life changes to MM's made the pet upgrades AOE.   Long gone are the days of needing to individually buff each pet...

As I read it,

What purrfekshawn is saying, is you buff the FFG with the robot upgrades instead of the pets.

 

Then BEFORE the FFG times out, if you have some missing robots that got killed during the fight. Just resummon the missing robots and then resummon the FFG and doing this will automatically upgrade all the pets that were NOT upgraded.  

 

I have seen when you resummon the FFG that the robots all go into upgrade mode.  

 

I will test this out and confirm. Yea its a bug but it will save you endurance and time upgrading in the middle of a fight if this is correct.

 

 

During a big fight if my big guy goes down the first thing I do is resummon him and use the 2nd upgrade first because I want him to fire off swarm missiles ASAP to give me some breathing room.

 

 

[plainguy]

On 9/28/2019 at 10:01 PM, Redlynne said:

The real distinction between Time and Traps is that Traps will generally favor a more "static" engagement strategy (plant the flag and fight there) while Time is going to be a bit more amenable to a more "mobile" engagement strategy. 

I like this analogy.  Its a good explanation. 

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, plainguy said:

On 9/28/2019 at 9:01 PM, Redlynne said:

The real distinction between Time and Traps is that Traps will generally favor a more "static" engagement strategy (plant the flag and fight there) while Time is going to be a bit more amenable to a more "mobile" engagement strategy. 

I like this analogy.  Its a good explanation. 

We make every pretense of competency around here ... 😅

[Purrfekshawn]

On 10/1/2019 at 9:31 PM, plainguy said:

As I read it,

What purrfekshawn is saying, is you buff the FFG with the robot upgrades instead of the pets.

 

Then BEFORE the FFG times out, if you have some missing robots that got killed during the fight. Just resummon the missing robots and then resummon the FFG and doing this will automatically upgrade all the pets that were NOT upgraded.  

 

I have seen when you resummon the FFG that the robots all go into upgrade mode.  

 

I will test this out and confirm. Yea its a bug but it will save you endurance and time upgrading in the middle of a fight if this is correct.

 

 

During a big fight if my big guy goes down the first thing I do is resummon him and use the 2nd upgrade first because I want him to fire off swarm missiles ASAP to give me some breathing room.

 

 

It's not a bug. It's a hidden feature. It works with Seeker Drones as well, but since those tend to selfdestruct once they see some enemy it would be a hard trick to use them for the trick.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Purrfekshawn

[Dr Causality]

4 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

It's not a bug. It's a hidden feature. It works with Seeker Drones as well, but since those tend to selfdestruct once they see some enemy it would be a hard trick to use them for the trick.

Heh.  I have a tough time imagining that's working as intended, especially when you consider we originally had to individually buff every pet.  But cool trick and I hope left in the game.  

[Crysis]

Personally, having played both, I find Bots/Time better for both solo and team play.  /Traps is no slouch and has always been a strong set, but /Traps in general requires more in the way of positioning and using specific tactics to play well.  /Time is good enough on its own to allow you to effectively assist the team even if you don’t summon all your Bots (caves/OCaves, etc. or in iTrials. Not that I recommend that but it can and does happen.

 

Honestly, I still play both of mine well after T4’ing them out.  Different enough to enjoy having two.  

[TheSpiritFox]

Ok, mobility is part of it, definitely. /time is more group friendly IF THE GROUP REALLY DOESN'T NEED YOU. 

That's my thing. Sure, if you're steamrollering, a /time will feel marginally more useful not leaving an acid mortar behind. Ever been on a speed ITF? You'll feel half useless as a mastermind anyway, no one wants to wait for your pets. 

If you are solo and can pull into traps, traps is straight up safer. Your defenses are out the box stronger with /traps (and you don't have to wait as long for FF gen vs farsight) leveling. Farsight is around 9% defense, ffgen is 12% unenhanced, requiring a power boost rotation. /Traps is often set it and forget it. I took the aid pool 1 because I don't even begin to need tough or weave to survive and 2 once my traps are set up, what do I do? Do I waste slots on shitty MM primary attacks and be the worst blaster ever? No I drop minor heals on people and keep my bots topped off and cycle my traps as fast as I can in battle. 

When people are steamrollering, who cares if you just use seekers and acid mortar? If the team isn't in danger, you don't need your toolkit. If the team is in danger, I've told people "fall back into my base" and saved a team when the tank went down. Give me enough time on my bots traps I could solo itf +4x8. Sure, I'll die alot. But I could fucking finish it, guaranteed. 

 

Oh and I cannot overstate the difference between just slowing people with /time and dropping caltrops in a doorway so that enemies stack up on the door without even getting to you to die in burn patches. /time is about being safe. /traps is about being a controller and a mastermind at the same time. The AOE hold power is a small chance on /time. Poison trap will often choke out every non boss mob in a group you drop it on. Traps is stronger buff/debuff/control in exchange for the stationary, it's not just a playstyle difference. 

 

I forgot, biggest and best reason for /traps over /time. I do not need power boost. Not at all, not in the slightest. It's a core power of many /time builds at 50, too good not to take. 

I take mu. I get some decent resistance out of it, but more importantly I get possibly the best aoe immob for bots in the game, electric fences. One electric fence and one web grenade stops a boss. With 5 slots my fences last 37 seconds and recharge in 10, I can stack fences on bosses immobilizing them in burn patches and cutting the time it takes to chew them down by a ton. Bots benefit so much from /mu that I can't justify a build that doesn't take them, which is why my /time is a thugs lol. That's the cap to the trollermind. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by TheSpiritFox

[Odhinn]

Thanks for the excellent breakdown TheSpiritFox.

 

[Coyote]

On 9/29/2019 at 12:46 PM, Shoulung said:

trapsis going to have the same issue with the run happy fools

 

As long as the AVs aren't unusually resistant to Immobilizes, you should be able to hold them in place with Web Grenade.

 

[Shoulung]

You may be right, I don’t have a lot of experience with AVs and immobilize.

[Dr Causality]

On 10/6/2019 at 1:07 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

I take mu. I get some decent resistance out of it, but more importantly I get possibly the best aoe immob for bots in the game, electric fences. One electric fence and one web grenade stops a boss. With 5 slots my fences last 37 seconds and recharge in 10, I can stack fences on bosses immobilizing them in burn patches and cutting the time it takes to chew them down by a ton. Bots benefit so much from /mu that I can't justify a build that doesn't take them, which is why my /time is a thugs lol. That's the cap to the trollermind.

 

Seems to me that some of these differences are just due to your /Time build seemingly not taking advantage of PPM changes, which on my take are what help make /Time really shine.   With the PPM changes /Time can be built as probably the most Control/Domination oriented MM 2ndary.      You get access to two Hold powers and you can add two more from the Epics for a total of 4 powers.   Each of those are only Mag3, but all four accept chance for chance for Hold procs.    After the PPM changes and because the MM powers are all high recharge,  by keeping Recharge enhancement low,  you can get proc chances that are very high giving you a way to easily and reliably stack Mag5 Holds in a single power....     

 

What about immobilize?    You say need to immobilize Boss's so they get stuck in Burn patch?

 

Similarly, as long as you keep the power's recharge enhancement near zero (also meaning don't take an Alpha Spiritual or Agility) then any of the Epic/Patron Immobilizes slotted with a Superior Frozen Blast: Chance for Immobilize will reliably do that.   

 

But we're not thinking big enough here.   Why bother immobilizing a boss when you can just hold them?    An Epic's long 32s Rech Hold slotted with Devastation Chance for Hold should have a 90% chance to proc with up to around an astounding 96% Recharge Enhancement.   Even /Time's 'Time Stop' lower rech and lesser 2 PPM's chance of Lockdown, is still decent since with zero Rech it has roughly 75% chance to proc the extra hold.  For comparison an actual controller only gets an inhernet 20% chance to stack an additional Mag1 Hold and because their powers are low recharge, they won't be able to get as much mileage from IO procs...

 

 

Putting that all together, How does /Time do you what you do with Caltrops and Web Grenade?          Open with Distortion Field slotted for Slow and a Lockdown proc.     Then follow up with an Epic Immobile power slotted with Superior Frozen Blast: Chance for Immobilize,  Gravitation Anchor Chance for Hold.    Enemies are heavily slowed, most likely immoblized and maybe even bosses held.     But if a boss isn't held just follow up with one of the hold powers also slotted with chance for hold proc.    But you say /Time is missing the damage from Caltrops?     Well not to worry that what damage procs are for....

 

In sum no need to immoblize /Time can easily perma hold multiple Bosses.    Immoblize/Taunt is reserved for enemies you can't perma hold like AVs....

 

/Time with it's 50% Rech buff makes some of the best use of Procs because Global Recharge doesn't count against proc chances, but still gets those powers up more often.  

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Dr Causality

[Scientist]

I would recommend /Traps for soloing, /Time for teaming.  I was soloing AVs redside in the early 30s with my Bots/Traps, since they popped up in those arcs and it was before you could change them to EBs solo.  This was using SOs and frankenslotting, not even set IOs, which were hard to find redside before the market merger.  Web Grenade does indeed work on most AVs to immobilize them, and if they do get out, they may well run out of your caltrops instead of over to squish you or a bot.  

 

But I have other, more team friendly characters for teaming, MMs will rarely be a first choice for teams.  I'm using the new Bots/Traps MM I've rolled up to read story content without having to worry about an ambush when I'm "talking" to an NPC, or impatient teammates. 🙂