Tank Aggro Cap

[Solarverse]

Reading the patch notes and trying to find info on this is difficult, since there are over 59 pages of that thread...and it has been locked. So according to City of Heroes Wiki, the max aggro any player can have is 17, right? A Tanks AoE can hit 16, and their cones can hit 10, but their taunt only hits 10. So am I to assume that a Tank can only hold the aggro of 16 max NPCs through AoE? Or does the 16 stack with the 10 taunted along with the 10 from Cone attacks?

 

My point is, I was under the impression that Tanks were going to get a higher aggro limit, but I don't think this adds up to what I had thought. This looks more like nothing has changed in the way of a Tank's ability to hold a higher number of NPC's in aggro count.

 

Can somebody please help me put this in perspective? It seems like there should be a math equation here, but since I do not know if those numbers stack, then it leaves out a very important piece of the puzzle. And if they do not stack at all, then it looks like a Tank can actually hold less now than he could before; going from 17 to 16?

 

Help me understand, please.

[SwitchFade]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Reading the patch notes and trying to find info on this is difficult, since there are over 59 pages of that thread...and it has been locked. So according to City of Heroes Wiki, the max aggro any player can have is 17, right? A Tanks AoE can hit 16, and their cones can hit 10, but their taunt only hits 10. So am I to assume that a Tank can only hold the aggro of 16 max NPCs through AoE? Or does the 16 stack with the 10 taunted along with the 10 from Cone attacks?

 

My point is, I was under the impression that Tanks were going to get a higher aggro limit, but I don't think this adds up to what I had thought. This looks more like nothing has changed in the way of a Tank's ability to hold a higher number of NPC's in aggro count.

 

Can somebody please help me put this in perspective? It seems like there should be a math equation here, but since I do not know if those numbers stack, then it leaves out a very important piece of the puzzle. And if they do not stack at all, then it looks like a Tank can actually hold less now than he could before; going from 17 to 16?

 

Help me understand, please.

Agro cap is 17. For everyone. That won't change. Your max is 17 and you may reach this in one, two three or many ways.... But the hard cap is 17. No single tool can hit all 17 at once as that would reduce agro control to one button.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

Agro cap is 17. For everyone. That won't change. Your max is 17 and you may reach this in one, two three or many ways.... But the hard cap is 17. No single tool can hit all 17 at once as that would reduce agro control to one button.

Okay, thank you for this info. That helps put things in clear perspective for me.

[siolfir]

Several posts in the Tanker feedback thread stated that the aggro cap is the same across all ATs due to being tied to critter (mob) AI, so there isn't an easy way to have separate caps by AT.

 

The aggro cap (number of things that will attack you) is 17 for everyone. This has nothing to do directly with how many things you hit, but threat generation for both Tankers and Brutes means that if they hit something, it will be taunted.

 

The target cap (number of things you can hit with a power in a single activation) is increasing from 5 to 10 for the Taunt power, for Tankers.

The target cap (again, the number of things you can hit with a power in a single activation) for many Tanker AoEs is going from 5 to 10 (for cones) and 10 to 16 (for PB/TAoEs). Not all of the AoEs are being changed.

 

(and, 2 replies came in while I was typing this - hopefully it explains the differences enough that other people don't get confused)

[SwitchFade]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, thank you for this info. That helps put things in clear perspective for me.

Also, you asked about stacking .. your taunt capability is cumulative, meaning aura, attacks and taunt can hit many or similar mobs and the "work" is spreading the Argo capturing around. So punch this way.... Taunt that way.... Move about to make aura work well... Etc.

Edited October 2, 2019 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

Hope that helps. I haven't posted in months and I am going back to silence again, so I won't be replying. Good luck out there.

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Hope that helps. I haven't posted in months and I am going back to silence again, so I won't be replying. Good luck out there.

I do appreciate you coming out to help educate me. Very appreciated and thank you.

[Snakebit]

5 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Several posts in the Tanker feedback thread stated that the aggro cap is the same across all ATs due to being tied to critter (mob) AI, so there isn't an easy way to have separate caps by AT.

 

The source for that is from a GM post in these forums. What was posted paints a picture of the change being impossible without the resources of a full studio. It's either 17 for everyone or nothing. I did spend a few minutes searching but I don't have the link. 

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Several posts in the Tanker feedback thread stated that the aggro cap is the same across all ATs due to being tied to critter (mob) AI, so there isn't an easy way to have separate caps by AT.

 

The aggro cap (number of things that will attack you) is 17 for everyone. This has nothing to do directly with how many things you hit, but threat generation for both Tankers and Brutes means that if they hit something, it will be taunted.

 

The target cap (number of things you can hit with a power in a single activation) is increasing from 5 to 10 for the Taunt power, for Tankers.

The target cap (again, the number of things you can hit with a power in a single activation) for many Tanker AoEs is going from 5 to 10 (for cones) and 10 to 16 (for PB/TAoEs). Not all of the AoEs are being changed.

 

(and, 2 replies came in while I was typing this - hopefully it explains the differences enough that other people don't get confused)

Nope, it helps tremendously. Hopefully if anyone else is confused about this, they will find their way to this thread. Good a direct answers to a very direct question. Very helpful. Thank you all.

[Darth_Helmet]

On 10/1/2019 at 4:54 PM, SwitchFade said:

Agro cap is 17. For everyone. That won't change. 

The game would improve dramatically if it did change. 

 

Whatever number the 'base value' is, a tanker should be able to herd way more. That would be one of the best ways to increase the usefulness of tankers and maintain their unique 'tankyness'

Edited October 23, 2019 by Darth_Helmet

[Mikewho]

Fun fact: there are points in the game where you can exceed the 17 agro cap. The ambushes in the final mission of the Barracuda SF can well exceed this for the number of mobs attacking you at once. Try it solo and you’ll see this. So clearly the agro cap is not quite as hard and set as many think.

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, Darth_Helmet said:

The game would improve dramatically if it did change. 

 

Whatever number the 'base value' is, a tanker should be able to herd way more. That would be one of the best ways to increase the usefulness of tankers and maintain their unique 'tankyness'

We tried that already and it just led to Tankers making people wait while they herded large groups of enemies. I'd rather see the entire AT removed before we go back to that.

 

edit: To be clear, I don't want Tankers removed.

Edited October 23, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Solarverse]

6 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

We tried that already and it just led to Tankers making people wait while they herded large groups of enemies. I'd rather see the entire AT removed before we go back to that.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to go back to that either. We went from one extreme (Tanks herding entire maps) to the opposite extreme (Tanks only able to hold the aggro of 17 NPC's at a time). The reason why I say 17 is an extreme, is because a single room has more than 17 at times, and when this happens, you have a Tank holding the aggro of 17 NPC's, while all the other mobs just stand there watching, completely oblivious to the Tank's presence until other members of the first 17 start dying off.

 

Personally, IMO a nice round number of 30 would be more realistic. This would prevent the Tank from herding maps, while keeping things on the edge of your seat in missions. With all these super powers out there and IOs making players practical Gods in end game, there honestly doesn't seem to be any real challenge for players. Mobs die faster than a Tank can gain the aggro of them more often than not. I personally think that 17 max is an old has been implementation during times before IO's. Now that the game has severely progressed and changed, the max number being 17 feels like a very outdated mechanic.

[skoryy]

51 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Personally, IMO a nice round number of 30 would be more realistic. This would prevent the Tank from herding maps, while keeping things on the edge of your seat in missions. With all these super powers out there and IOs making players practical Gods in end game, there honestly doesn't seem to be any real challenge for players. Mobs die faster than a Tank can gain the aggro of them more often than not. I personally think that 17 max is an old has been implementation during times before IO's. Now that the game has severely progressed and changed, the max number being 17 feels like a very outdated mechanic.

Increasing the aggro cap won't make content more challenging. What it will do is make the rewards come faster while steamrolling Council with S/L capped lvl 50s.

 

Again, I'll take the lack of challenging content comments seriously once I start seeing regular groups running Dark Astoria, Mother Mayhem, and the Underground.

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Increasing the aggro cap won't make content more challenging. What it will do is make the rewards come faster while steamrolling Council with S/L capped lvl 50s.

 

Again, I'll take the lack of challenging content comments seriously once I start seeing regular groups running Dark Astoria, Mother Mayhem, and the Underground.

I don't have any problems with that, however, I don't want to limit myself to those three areas of the game either.

 

As far as your first comment, you won't stop players from power leveling. This isn't about them...they already do what they do. This is about players who enjoy running as teams. I personally feel the average players of the game shouldn't be denied a greater challenge and more fun environment due to the people who enjoy power leveling. As said before, this is not about them, PLers will do what PLers do. This is about us...you, me...and anyone else who loves to play the game in a regular teaming way.

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I don't have any problems with that, however, I don't want to limit myself to those three areas of the game either.

 

As far as your first comment, you won't stop players from power leveling. This isn't about them...they already do what they do. This is about players who enjoy running as teams. I personally feel the average players of the game shouldn't be denied a greater challenge and more fun environment due to the people who enjoy power leveling. As said before, this is not about them, PLers will do what PLers do. This is about us...you, me...and anyone else who loves to play the game in a regular teaming way.

Let's try it this way: Explain how increasing the aggro cap is a greater challenge and more fun.

[Solarverse]

28 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Let's try it this way: Explain how increasing the aggro cap is a greater challenge and more fun.

Did you play before the aggro cap nerf? I don't mean did you wait at the door and wait on the Tank to herd the whole map. I mean, did you play in those days. If the answer is yes, then you remember the Tank having to hold the aggro of not only anything in range, but also anything that was accidentally aggroed by mistake. So maybe the Tank had the aggro of 20 NPC's. A Blaster misfires and hits the NPC that is in the other mob...the Tank now grabs the aggro and saves the life of the Blaster (This was back when Blasters actually needed Tanks to survive ( and now the Tank had pretty much the whole room of mobs smashing on him, while the Controllers scrambled to lock them down, while the Healers were on the edge of their seat keeping the Tank alive, while the Blasters were giving those mobs everything they've got. That my man was fun...kept my heart racing. Back in those days, players were actually careful not to aggro another mob, because it was risky to do so. Blasters would pull using their snipe in those days, because the Tank diving in was a risk. Even a Blaster pulling was not always sufficient, sometimes that Blaster pulled a bit more than the team could chew.  Also, bigger mobs made bigger booms when Blasters hit them, it really had a real feeling to it, even though it was a simple game. These are my personal reasons that this was fun to me.

 

Nowadays, we have rush rush rush from mob to mob without a single care in the world, all while beating Task Forces with record numbers with very little to no much risk. Now the game is pseudo fun, IMO.

[skoryy]

46 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Did you play before the aggro cap nerf? I don't mean did you wait at the door and wait on the Tank to herd the whole map. I mean, did you play in those days. If the answer is yes, then you remember the Tank having to hold the aggro of not only anything in range, but also anything that was accidentally aggroed by mistake. So maybe the Tank had the aggro of 20 NPC's. A Blaster misfires and hits the NPC that is in the other mob...the Tank now grabs the aggro and saves the life of the Blaster (This was back when Blasters actually needed Tanks to survive ( and now the Tank had pretty much the whole room of mobs smashing on him, while the Controllers scrambled to lock them down, while the Healers were on the edge of their seat keeping the Tank alive, while the Blasters were giving those mobs everything they've got. That my man was fun...kept my heart racing. Back in those days, players were actually careful not to aggro another mob, because it was risky to do so. Blasters would pull using their snipe in those days, because the Tank diving in was a risk. Even a Blaster pulling was not always sufficient, sometimes that Blaster pulled a bit more than the team could chew.  Also, bigger mobs made bigger booms when Blasters hit them, it really had a real feeling to it, even though it was a simple game. These are my personal reasons that this was fun to me.

 

Nowadays, we have rush rush rush from mob to mob without a single care in the world, all while beating Task Forces with record numbers with very little to no much risk. Now the game is pseudo fun, IMO.

That blaster can still pull mobs from other groups, and they're going to have a lousier day of it because of the aggro cap.  The tank may not have room to bail them out. That sounds to me like that's actually more challenging.

 

But again, if you want more challenge, we have it! How many teams have you run through DA?  How many through the harder incarnate trials?  Heck, how often do you take a +4/x8 team against Malta, Circle, Carnies, or Nemmies?

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Did you play before the aggro cap nerf? I don't mean did you wait at the door and wait on the Tank to herd the whole map. I mean, did you play in those days. If the answer is yes, then you remember the Tank having to hold the aggro of not only anything in range, but also anything that was accidentally aggroed by mistake. So maybe the Tank had the aggro of 20 NPC's. A Blaster misfires and hits the NPC that is in the other mob...the Tank now grabs the aggro and saves the life of the Blaster (This was back when Blasters actually needed Tanks to survive ( and now the Tank had pretty much the whole room of mobs smashing on him, while the Controllers scrambled to lock them down, while the Healers were on the edge of their seat keeping the Tank alive, while the Blasters were giving those mobs everything they've got. That my man was fun...kept my heart racing. Back in those days, players were actually careful not to aggro another mob, because it was risky to do so. Blasters would pull using their snipe in those days, because the Tank diving in was a risk. Even a Blaster pulling was not always sufficient, sometimes that Blaster pulled a bit more than the team could chew.  Also, bigger mobs made bigger booms when Blasters hit them, it really had a real feeling to it, even though it was a simple game. These are my personal reasons that this was fun to me.

 

Nowadays, we have rush rush rush from mob to mob without a single care in the world, all while beating Task Forces with record numbers with very little to no much risk. Now the game is pseudo fun, IMO.

None of what you're describing has anything to do with the aggro cap.  You're remembering things with rose colored glasses.  I was there in those days.  I remember everything from Warwolf farms and "dumpster diving" and original Dr Quarterfield.  The "heart pounding" you feel is lacking is completely irrelevant to the aggro cap, it has to do with power creep and knowledge creep.  Players are just better now and characyers are 5 times more powerful.  Every character I have at 50 is defense capped, regardless of the AT or set.  That just chamges things in ways that make your above example impossible to go back to (ignoring the fact that your examples are fictitious fuzzy memories of gameplay that only existed on bad teams in the time between ED and IOs).  

[Haijinx]

Think Omega is right.  Power creep means you can handle a lot more than back then, and there are a lot less inexperienced players.

 

Still get goofs though.  Like trying into city hall too soon during Posi 1 and 3000 COT goons swarm you.  

[Solarverse]

I disagree that it has nothing to do with aggro cap, maybe I didn't explain it right. The higher aggro cap meant more mobs on the Tank that had to rescue the blaster or accidental overpulls. I'm no expert, but I am fairly certain that was relevant.  However, this is one of those conversations where there is no convincing the other. If it was, I am pretty sure it would have been done by now. To me, when you say that is just power creeps, to me that gives us even more reason to increase the aggro cap. I made that point a lot earlier though before any of your responses. I mentioned it, I just didn't call it out by name. I did say "With all the IO's and extra super powers, the aggro cap is out dated." ...or something to that affect.

 

So pretty much, my reasons are your reasons to not agree, while your reasons for disagreeing are my reasons to disagree with you. Seems we are caught in a conversational loop here where it becomes literally impossible to convince one over the other. However, I am willing to bet my last hard earned buck, that if it was put to a vote across all players who play (Not just the forum posters) that more people would be in favor of a higher aggro cap than not. Just a hunch.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Solarverse

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

However, I am willing to bet my last hard earned buck, that if it was put to a vote across all players who play (Not just the forum posters) that more people would be in favor of a higher aggro cap than not. Just a hunch.

While we're here, let's put in the same vote whether they want instant 50s with full T4 incarnates and purple IO sets.  I want to see the results of that vote.

[Solarverse]

9 hours ago, skoryy said:

While we're here, let's put in the same vote whether they want instant 50s with full T4 incarnates and purple IO sets.  I want to see the results of that vote.

---

LOL touché!

 

Let's  be real though, they already do this. Increasing the aggro cap won't change that. Pliers will do what PLers do no matter the situation.

 

Are we always going to walk on thin ice when changes are concerned due to what PLers do? I don't know about you, but I'm tired of being the whipping boy for PLers.  I would like to see changes made without worrying g what power levelers will do...because what we have now, gives them what they want now. They can easily make 50 in a single day, and with the cash they make, can be fully IOed out on that same day. 

 

I dont see how increasing the aggro cap will change that.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Solarverse

[golstat2003]

45 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

---

LOL touché!

 

Let's  be real though, they already do this. Increasing the aggro cap won't change that. Pliers will do what PLers do no matter the situation.

 

Are we always going to walk on thin ice when changes are concerned due to what PLers do? I don't know about you, but I'm tired of being the whipping boy for PLers.  I would like to see changes made without worrying g what power levelers will do...because what we have now, gives them what they want now. They can easily make 50 in a single day, and with the cash they make, can be fully IOed out on that same day. 

 

I dont see how increasing the aggro cap will change that.

Mehhh, I'm good with the aggro cap where it is. As much as we can avoid any chance of going back to the "stand here" while the tank herds mentality, the better.

[Gulbasaur]

13 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

The "heart pounding" you feel is lacking is completely irrelevant to the aggro cap, it has to do with power creep and knowledge creep.  Players are just better now and characyers are 5 times more powerful.  Every character I have at 50 is defense capped, regardless of the AT or set. 

This game is phenomenally unbalanced since Going Rogue and it just gets worse with IOs - couldn't agree with you more. 

 

In current playstyle, minions don't even register on most people's radar past about level 40 - they're just a minor annoyance waiting to be converted into rewards. Allowing more of them to be tackled by a tank at once won't do anything other than reduce risk and increase rewards.

 

I remember the "watch the tanker collect a map full of warwolves days" - it was great to hang out with your supergroup and chat, but it wasn't challenging at all. I would actually say it was the opposite - you were never at risk as long as the tanker was upright. 

 

Blasters at 50 aren't glass cannons any more - they've got 30% global resists and defences nearing cap. As soon as you have the inf to cover your expenses, you've beaten the game. I got to 50 on about i12? and rolling a kheldian was amazing because you could pull a group of mobs at range and take the fallout if you hit dwarf in time - at the time, nothing in the game came close to being able to do both. The average tanker who has even glanced at a guide is functionally indestructible. Brutes aren't too far behind and can do obscene amounts of damage. I've tanked AVs on my widow - Yes, they have high defence, but tanking AVs is supposed end-game difficulty. 

 

Of all the balance issues the game has (tankers being unable to compete with brutes is being worked on, stalkers got a big boost that pushed them into scrapper territory and then out the other side, defenders have struggled to compete since controllers got double-damage and GR just made it worse with corruptors and masterminds being able to do almost as good a job but adding more damage to a team, it's almost trivial to add defence to a resistance set but not the other way round, enhancements aren't available at all for several buffs and debuffs)... the aggro cap is like the lowest one down there, in my opinion. 

 

I wonder if there is a way to add a temporary override to taunt click powers, in the same way that happens in some ambushes, like a guaranteed "next attack is at me" control power.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Gulbasaur