Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Infinitum]

51 minutes ago, gr8_2018 said:

Sorry if I missed this, but has there been any talk of lowering brute resistance caps to the 85% mark or somewhere thereabouts? To me this is one of the biggest changes that would make tanks the actual preferred tanking class on teams.

This keeps coming back like the evil bunny on Donnie Darko.

 

Nothing beats a tank on survivability as it is now.  Not even res cap Brutes.

 

Don't believe me, come team with my Shield SJ Tank.

[gr8_2018]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

No one took this seriously when it was first suggested I don’t think. Tanks are already the premiere tanking class selected by teams. From what I’ve read that change is nowhere near in the table, and rightfully so.

I'm just getting back into the game and was never a big numbers person when playing so this might be a dumb question, but why is that? I'm struggling to see the justification for tanks and brutes having the same max HP, max defense, and resist caps while brutes have much greater damage. I know in reality tankers will have higher HP than brutes, but with IOs they will rarely have greater defense or resists, especially on teams with buffs.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, gr8_2018 said:

I'm just getting back into the game and was never a big numbers person when playing so this might be a dumb question, but why is that? I'm struggling to see the justification for tanks and brutes having the same max HP, max defense, and resist caps while brutes have much greater damage. I know in reality tankers will have higher HP than brutes, but with IOs they will rarely have greater defense or resists, especially on teams with buffs.

Part of the changes being discussed is giving more damage to Tankers. The point of this thread is to buff tankers, NOT nerf Brute.

 

I think you need to read this thread. All of this has been hashed to death with dev comments all throughout. Please read the thread. There will soon be additional patches with a brand new thread for discussion. This one is pretty much done as all of this has been hashed to death.

Edited October 30, 2019 by golstat2003

[Demon Shell]

1 hour ago, gr8_2018 said:

I'm just getting back into the game and was never a big numbers person when playing so this might be a dumb question, but why is that? I'm struggling to see the justification for tanks and brutes having the same max HP, max defense, and resist caps while brutes have much greater damage. I know in reality tankers will have higher HP than brutes, but with IOs they will rarely have greater defense or resists, especially on teams with buffs.

The goal, as stated by the dev team, is for Brutes to have 90% of the survival of a Tanker, and for a Tanker to have 90% the damage of a Brute.

 

Tankers will also, additionally, have the hit cap on their Taunt (which already reduces enemy range by more than the Brute version, allowing them to clump a mob up better/faster for higher DPS from the rest of the team) boosted from 5 to 7, larger radii on most of their 360 AoEs, wider arcs on most of their cones, and increased target caps on nearly all of their non-ST attacks.

 

Brutes will generate Fury faster, though that isn't on the test server yet.

 

I don't know that it's been stated directly, but the direction things seem to be going is that Tankers will be AoE experts while Brutes will outperform them in ST.

[Moka]

4 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

I don't know that it's been stated directly, but the direction things seem to be going is that Tankers will be AoE experts while Brutes will outperform them in ST.

Kind of how it should have always been.

[Puma]

Personally, I think it should really be like this.

Tankers-Very High Survival-strong taunt, moderate AoE and single target damage.

Scrappers- Moderate survival, no taunt, moderate Single target, strong AoE damage. Increase crit chance on AoEs 

Brutes- High survival-weak taunt, moderate AoE/strong single target damage. 

Stalkers- low/Moderate survival, no taunt, Very strong single target, Moderate AoE damage.  Increase crit chance on single target attacks, keep assassin's guaranteed crit as is.  

 

Each has a specialty that way. Either they are the meat shield with moderate damage and taunt, or they're the melee AoE damage, or they're the steamroller able to take down mobs but still also to take on a boss, or they're the bosses killer taking things down one at a time quickly.  Of course this would have required slightly differen variations of the powers for scrappers, kind of like stalkers. Give scrappers one more AoE attack or up the damage of their AoEs via crits and lower their recharge.    

Edited October 31, 2019 by Puma

[Darth_Helmet]

On 10/29/2019 at 10:24 AM, HellKnightX said:

I personally think we could help offset the identity crisis that Tanks have by increasing their aggro limit from 17 to something like 24-30. I know it's possible, since the aggro limit was only introduced in i1, and it can be bypassed by ambushes. Right now, these Tanker changes are great, but they will only help Tankers hit the aggro limit faster, which is and always has felt very restrictive, especially because you will often find your group surrounded by more than 17 enemies in higher-end content.

This. And I do not believe that it isnt possible...I just think no one has thought of a way to do it yet. And I think it would be the optimal solution.

[Wompy]

Tanks primary role is holding aggro, they shouldnt be competing with brutes for damage.  Also I read somewhere that brute damage cap will be reduced because blasters, but with these changes Tankers will be using powers such as combustion  to hit 16 targets with a modifier of 0.95, while blasters with a modifier of just 0.05 more will be hitting just 10 targets despite being at signifcanlty more risk in melee.  I think some of the Devs for all their good work have lost sight of what balance is because tankers is their baby.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Wompy said:

Tanks primary role is holding aggro, they shouldnt be competing with brutes for damage.  Also I read somewhere that brute damage cap will be reduced because blasters, but with these changes Tankers will be using powers such as combustion  to hit 16 targets with a modifier of 0.95, while blasters with a modifier of just 0.05 more will be hitting just 10 targets despite being at signifcanlty more risk in melee.  I think some of the Devs for all their good work have lost sight of what balance is because tankers is their baby.

Then how about we make no changes to any of the melee ATs at all then. If every single change is going to be scrutinized that it doesn’t balance against every AT in the game that similar to the one that you are making changes on, then the only fully balanced change is to make ZERO changes whatsoever going forward, on an AT level.

 

Or we can go with the more realistic approach that you are never going to achieve perfect balance. Especially not with the size of the dev team we currently have. Some folks are under the delusion that this is still a paid mmorpg with a full staff of developers like on live. And not in actual fact a team of volunteers.

 

Let’s get some perspective and realistic expectations folks.

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Darth_Helmet said:

This. And I do not believe that it isnt possible...I just think no one has thought of a way to do it yet. And I think it would be the optimal solution.

The devs have already looked at it and said why it’s specifically not possible in more than one place in this very thread.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

The devs have already looked at it and said why it’s specifically not possible in more than one place in this very thread.

And lots of other threads .. 

[Super Homer]

4 hours ago, Wompy said:

Tanks primary role is holding aggro, they shouldnt be competing with brutes for damage.  Also I read somewhere that brute damage cap will be reduced because blasters, but with these changes Tankers will be using powers such as combustion  to hit 16 targets with a modifier of 0.95, while blasters with a modifier of just 0.05 more will be hitting just 10 targets despite being at signifcanlty more risk in melee.  I think some of the Devs for all their good work have lost sight of what balance is because tankers is their baby.

If you go and create a character, under Tank, there are 3 ATs, not one. The brute job is also to hold agro, and they can do it pretty well since every single one of their attacks taunts. If you don't dismiss that the brute is indeed a very effective tank, how do you balance them other than make sure neither is overly better than the other at the one thing everyone cares about [damage]?

[Kanil]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Then how about we make no changes to any of the melee ATs at all then. If every single change is going to be scrutinized that it doesn’t balance against every AT in the game that similar to the one that you are making changes on, then the only fully balanced change is to make ZERO changes whatsoever going forward, on an AT level.

 

Or we can go with the more realistic approach that you are never going to achieve perfect balance. Especially not with the size of the dev team we currently have. Some folks are under the delusion that this is still a paid mmorpg with a full staff of developers like on live. And not in actual fact a team of volunteers.

 

Let’s get some perspective and realistic expectations folks.

let me hail of bullets 50 targets instead of 16 if i die by getting sneezed on while superman gets to eat nuclear bombs to the face without flinching while killing everyone around him

[Haijinx]

This proposed change has entered the worn out bandaid stage. 

 

Just tear it off and get it over with.

 

[Myrmidon]

On 10/31/2019 at 3:28 AM, Wompy said:

Tanks primary role is holding aggro, they shouldnt be competing with brutes for damage.  Also I read somewhere that brute damage cap will be reduced because blasters, but with these changes Tankers will be using powers such as combustion  to hit 16 targets with a modifier of 0.95, while blasters with a modifier of just 0.05 more will be hitting just 10 targets despite being at signifcanlty more risk in melee.  I think some of the Devs for all their good work have lost sight of what balance is because tankers is their baby.

Blasters have a 1.125 Range Damage modifier and access to excellent levels of indestructibility.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Myrmidon
Corrected due to Seven years of not Blasting, my mistake.😁

[Haijinx]

Tankers will definitely be minion stompers with their new AOE.

 

But thinking they will compete with Blasters?  Lulz.  

[drbuzzard]

On 10/31/2019 at 2:28 AM, Wompy said:

Tanks primary role is holding aggro, they shouldnt be competing with brutes for damage.  Also I read somewhere that brute damage cap will be reduced because blasters, but with these changes Tankers will be using powers such as combustion  to hit 16 targets with a modifier of 0.95, while blasters with a modifier of just 0.05 more will be hitting just 10 targets despite being at signifcanlty more risk in melee.  I think some of the Devs for all their good work have lost sight of what balance is because tankers is their baby.

You might want to actually understand the numbers at all before you bring them up. You are so drastically wrong that it went well past funny. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by drbuzzard

[Captain Citadel]

Any idea when the next round of changes will hit beta? It's been a month but it seems like all that's happened in all that time is the reversion of the change that allowed for Rage crashes to be avoided. Plus the removal of Bruising and the extra endurance for Tankers.

[Captain Powerhouse]

The way we work not single person holds the keys to the kingdom. Multiple people need to be involved on every patch, at least at the moment. This also means that RL issues can delay things, and honestly, it’s been an on and off eventful month for some of us, me included.

[StratoNexus]

13 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

You might want to actually understand the numbers at all before you bring them up. You are so drastically wrong that it went well pasty funny. 

Are you sure? Did you check before you posted your rebuke? Did they change the blaster melee modifier in I24 or on Homecoming? It had been a 1 forever, only ranged attacks have the 1.125 modifier, but maybe they adjusted after close, I am not sure. Tankers will have several 16 foot radius PBAoEs dealing only modestly less damage than blasters using the same powers and they will be able to hit more targets and several of those powers will have a bigger area of effect than the blaster equivalent.

Defiance will certainly help boost the blaster damage beyond what those simple numbers show, however the extra radius and targets hit is a big deal. I did not get to test this iteration, so I have been keeping quiet, I am generally aligned with the most recent patch, although I still think 0.95 is a bit too high for Tankers and I still dislike the loss of bruising (a full 20% increase to Tanker base damage is more than needed for noticeable improvement, I'd rather see a 10% increase in base damage and an adjustment to bruising, but the current test iteration is alrightish).

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, StratoNexus said:

Are you sure? Did you check before you posted your rebuke? Did they change the blaster melee modifier in I24 or on Homecoming? It had been a 1 forever, only ranged attacks have the 1.125 modifier, but maybe they adjusted after close, I am not sure. Tankers will have several 16 foot radius PBAoEs dealing only modestly less damage than blasters using the same powers and they will be able to hit more targets and several of those powers will have a bigger area of effect than the blaster equivalent.

Defiance will certainly help boost the blaster damage beyond what those simple numbers show, however the extra radius and targets hit is a big deal. I did not get to test this iteration, so I have been keeping quiet, I am generally aligned with the most recent patch, although I still think 0.95 is a bit too high for Tankers and I still dislike the loss of bruising (a full 20% increase to Tanker base damage is more than needed for noticeable improvement, I'd rather see a 10% increase in base damage and an adjustment to bruising, but the current test iteration is alrightish).

Aim + build up + inferno + burnout + aim + build up + inferno says.   Hi!

Edited November 1, 2019 by Infinitum

[StratoNexus]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Aim + build up + inferno + burnout + aim + build up + inferno says.   Hi!

Cool blaster tricks yo. Doesn't change the fact Tanker Fire Sword Circle will be larger and hit more enemies than Blaster Fire Sword Circle, while also encouraging the enemies to stay close so you can keep AoEing them, which a good thing, because it keeps them close for teammates to be safer and for them to AoE as well, but still added value over the blaster version, which often makes them run away due to the fear of having taken a lot of damage and from being on fire.

I am not saying out of hand that this is bad. I am just saying it needs to be reasonably considered. It sometimes feels we are comparing Tanker to Brute to Scrapper without considering the squishier melee that is Stalker and paritally Blaster (and possibly Dominator).

It defintely should not be dismissed out of hand by folks who think blaster Combustion uses a 1.125 modifier and who posit that blasters can reach excellent levels of indestrucibility in a bloody tanker thread. Blasters can survive fine, but in the context of this thread, calling it excellent levels of indestructibility is a bit much. 😀

[drbuzzard]

Going  by pine since it's what I have access to right now:

 

Blaster combustion base damage at 50: 83.42

Tanker combustion base damage at 50: 57.83

 

So we assume the tanker boost from .8 to .95 which means *1.18 or so and the tanker is now doing 68.6. This means the tanker is doing about 82% of the damage of the blaster without even accounting for defiance. 

 

So yes, his numbers were way the heck off. 

 

 

[Replacement]

My big realization recently has been this:

 

If Blasters had 90% resist cap, Brutes would still be better.

 

The truth is, any time you try to make an AT keep up with Brute, you will overshadow other ATs. They just weren't designed on the same scales.

 

And it's funny to see a comment like this:

On 10/31/2019 at 4:28 AM, Wompy said:

I think some of the Devs for all their good work have lost sight of what balance is because tankers is their baby.

... When Brutes had a decade of being untouchable by nerfs despite all objective measurement, and high priority for every proliferation, allowed access to melee sets of both broad aesthetics (light/skillful scrapper sets and heavy tanker melee). Seriously count up the number of available primaries of any AT and then look at how many Brute gets to choose.

 

Brutes have had their run. I'm not screaming nerf, but anyone against raising up other ATs really needs to get over themselves and enjoy the future.

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, StratoNexus said:

Cool blaster tricks yo. Doesn't change the fact Tanker Fire Sword Circle will be larger and hit more enemies than Blaster Fire Sword Circle, while also encouraging the enemies to stay close so you can keep AoEing them, which a good thing, because it keeps them close for teammates to be safer and for them to AoE as well, but still added value over the blaster version, which often makes them run away due to the fear of having taken a lot of damage and from being on fire.

I am not saying out of hand that this is bad. I am just saying it needs to be reasonably considered. It sometimes feels we are comparing Tanker to Brute to Scrapper without considering the squishier melee that is Stalker and paritally Blaster (and possibly Dominator).

It defintely should not be dismissed out of hand by folks who think blaster Combustion uses a 1.125 modifier and who posit that blasters can reach excellent levels of indestrucibility in a bloody tanker thread. Blasters can survive fine, but in the context of this thread, calling it excellent levels of indestructibility is a bit much. 😀

Not really, I fight at range with my blaster, and build for that and its hard to die the way im set up.

 

My blaster is > any of my brutes and tanks where damage is considered.  Its not even close.