DarknessEternal Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, Haijinx said: Their 1b inf farm toons that have earned them 5b influence will be less good than possible tanker farm toons. Completely irrelevant. I can make a new maxxed out guy in a few hours and I have no emotional attachment to any of them. If these changes go live, I'll just make a Tank farmer. If you want an example of power creep though, that's it. One patch and one AT makes another completely irrelevant. Is that really the direction you want this game going down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moka Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 One AT is already irrelevant for farming. Technically all ATs but one ate for optional farming. And farming shouldn't be considered content. You could consider ITFs and such farm content but at least that's actual game content with AVs and such. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macskull Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, Auroxis said: With these powersets specifically? My comparisons were with a Rad/Fire Brute and a Fire/Rad Tanker. The builds were identical save for an extra -res proc on the Tanker (Tanker ATO set gives +10% rech in one less slot than the Brute ATO set so that freed up a slot). In my testing I was able to complete a +4x8 asteroid in 3:30-4:00 depending on NPC spawn location, inspiration drops, and other similar variables, and those times were consistent regardless of whether I was on the Tanker or the Brute. At target saturation the Tanker might have a slight edge but it's not significant enough for me to level and IO a new character when I've got a Brute that can do it just fine. I think if Tankers still had a 600% damage cap like in the initial implementation of these changes it would've been a different story. I haven't checked the numbers with any other powerset combinations (i.e. Spines, Elec, Savage) because Rad is the best of the bunch and that's what I'd be using anyways. All this is kind of moot anyways, since a Blaster is a better option than either a Tanker or a Brute. 3 "If you can read this, I've failed as a developer." -- Caretaker Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 15APR24) Player numbers graph (updated every 15 minutes) Graph readme @macskull/@Not Mac | Twitch | Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haijinx Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said: Completely irrelevant. I can make a new maxxed out guy in a few hours and I have no emotional attachment to any of them. If these changes go live, I'll just make a Tank farmer. If you want an example of power creep though, that's it. One patch and one AT makes another completely irrelevant. Not irrelevant. Just not as good as the new hotness .. Maybe .. At farming. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, macskull said: All my testing given identical builds has shown that there is very little difference and switching to the Tanker didn't really speed me up. This has been my experience as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I'm seeing a trend that these objections are mainly farm related, and even there theres not much difference between the two. I dont get it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auroxis Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Infinitum said: I'm seeing a trend that these objections are mainly farm related, and even there theres not much difference between the two. I dont get it. I've personally run zero farm tests, all of mine have been in the regular +4x8 gameplay and DPS comparison departments. Keep in mind that in a farm scenario, Tankers get the target cap benefit while Brutes get the max fury benefit. It's an interesting edge case scenario. Edited November 7, 2019 by Auroxis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macskull Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, Infinitum said: I'm seeing a trend that these objections are mainly farm related, and even there theres not much difference between the two. I dont get it. Nor do I. When the initial Tanker patch went live I immediately started looking at Tanker builds because Tankers were going to be obviously better at farming than Brutes. With the current iteration that's not the case. Almost all the math being thrown around here for saying "Tanks outdamage Brutes, Brutes are useless!" assumes that both ATs are at their respective target and damage caps and that's just not something you see in anything except fringe cases. The fact is that a Brute with even a modest amount of Fury is going to outdamage a Tanker most of the time, especially once the upcoming Fury changes are factored in. 2 "If you can read this, I've failed as a developer." -- Caretaker Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 15APR24) Player numbers graph (updated every 15 minutes) Graph readme @macskull/@Not Mac | Twitch | Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auroxis Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, macskull said: Nor do I. When the initial Tanker patch went live I immediately started looking at Tanker builds because Tankers were going to be obviously better at farming than Brutes. With the current iteration that's not the case. Almost all the math being thrown around here for saying "Tanks outdamage Brutes, Brutes are useless!" assumes that both ATs are at their respective target and damage caps and that's just not something you see in anything except fringe cases. The fact is that a Brute with even a modest amount of Fury is going to outdamage a Tanker most of the time, especially once the upcoming Fury changes are factored in. "Most of the time" is fairly subjective. If you're running on a team with a moderate amount of damage buffs, a Brute with only a modest amount of Fury is definitely going to get out-classed by a Tanker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarknessEternal Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, macskull said: The fact is that a Brute with even a modest amount of Fury is going to outdamage a Tanker most of the time, especially once the upcoming Fury changes are factored in. The upcoming Fury change does not change Brute damage. Brute damage will remain exactly the same at 700%. You'll just need 1 fewer of your infinite number of red inspirations to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCMcBoo Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Infinitum said: I'm seeing a trend that these objections are mainly farm related, and even there theres not much difference between the two. I dont get it. It's the ridiculous conceit that some sort of competition exists between the archetypes. I have yet to see, with a minimum of exceptions, anyone trying to build the "perfect team" for trials, TFs, door missions or even farms for that matter. The previously mentioned exceptions are usually when damage-centric teams go up against higher end GMs that require some sort of meaningful debuff to defeat. The archetypes are meant to be about play style not "grind cred". I haven't tried it personally but I have enough experience with taking a fire/rad controller to 50 to wager that, with the right build, it could probably farm fairly effectively. Does that invalidate every other archetype in the game? Hardly! Edited November 7, 2019 by JCMcBoo 2 "As Nintova suggests, you can treat a tanker like a melee controller." - Heraclea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, Auroxis said: "Most of the time" is fairly subjective. If you're running on a team with a moderate amount of damage buffs, a Brute with only a modest amount of Fury is definitely going to get out-classed by a Tanker. No it won't. Not even a majority of situations. There may be outliers like SS but majority of situations the AOE wont matter on either AT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macskull Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said: The upcoming Fury change does not change Brute damage. Brute damage will remain exactly the same at 700%. You'll just need 1 fewer of your infinite number of red inspirations to get there. So you're saying you run around at the damage cap all the time regardless of the content you're running? Okay. 3 "If you can read this, I've failed as a developer." -- Caretaker Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 15APR24) Player numbers graph (updated every 15 minutes) Graph readme @macskull/@Not Mac | Twitch | Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auroxis Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Infinitum said: No it won't. Not even a majority of situations. There may be outliers like SS but majority of situations the AOE wont matter on either AT. SS simulates a "moderately buffed" scenario, other powersets need more juice to get there but with only a "modest" amount of Fury to compare it with the gap is quite small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, macskull said: So you're saying you run around at the damage cap all the time regardless of the content you're running? Okay. I love it how outliers get classed as the norm and then try to use that info to undercut to hurt something else. Its time to give it a rest and just enjoy it. This is the worst case of ohh noos my look at me is gone. And funny thing is, it isnt even gone. LOL 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarknessEternal Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, macskull said: So you're saying you run around at the damage cap all the time regardless of the content you're running? Okay. Yes, why aren't you? Well, that's hyperbole. I'm only at the damage cap from half way through the first pull until the end of the mission. Edited November 7, 2019 by DarknessEternal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitum Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Auroxis said: SS simulates a "moderately buffed" scenario, other powersets need more juice to get there but with only a "modest" amount of Fury to compare it with the gap is quite small. I dont know how fury works with your setup but mine is consistently at 80-90 percent on farms, and reaches that in a few seconds on teams. No tank I have can outdamage any brute I have SS included - even on test the changes only tighten the gap between the 2 which is ok with me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auroxis Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, Infinitum said: I dont know how fury works with your setup but mine is consistently at 80-90 percent on farms, and reaches that in a few seconds on teams. My Brutes definitely don't reach that consistently on teams unless i'm constantly in combat and getting aggro. And the original statement was about a "modest" amount of Fury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooks Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) I didn't realise fury generation was a problem for so many brutes. Even on teams I rarely drop below 70% (ish, just by eye) and even that is usually because of some big travel gap between mobs, e.g. going back through a tunnel in a cave map to go down the other tunnel a fair ways. My free tip if you find you aren't getting enough agro for fury to just shoot up by itself is: on the first or second mob, just hop ahead into the next mob (pop a few purples if it's the kind of content it's tough to do consistently on), then take their alpha. You'll get a big shot in the arm of anger juice that will keep you going for the rest of the mission, pretty much just from attacking. The trick is to not stop attacking. You're a brute, that's literally your whole deal. So yeah any brute I'm playing will be much smashier than correspondent tanks. I just want the game in a place where I can make a new tank without feeling I'm doing a disservice to any potential teammates by not picking a brute. These changes would completely fix that. I might even have a near equal number of brutes and tanks! Edited November 7, 2019 by Rooks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Homer Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 This thread is making me think that inspirations drop WAY too often.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Moka said: I think the damage buff to tankers is entirely necessary. They should have always had the same damage modifier as a brute. The keyword here is modifier. They will not have the same damage potential, but there was no reason a tanker's damage modifier should be as low as it is on the live game. Giving them higher defense/resistance values won't fix their current problems in the regular game, because a brute will still be equally "good enough" at a certain survival rate to invalidate a tanker in the current scheme of things. Nitpick here: currently on live, Tankers have a higher modifier than Brutes. Brutes have the lowest damage modifier of any melee AT. They just have an inherent that more than makes up for it, even after it's been nerfed once already (from 3% per point to 2% per point). I've just been in "smile and nod" mode since it became clear that there were more changes coming without any information on when. Long story short, I thought the original changes were overtuned, those were turned back some, and there's not much else to go on. The +maxend and 600% damage cap were my biggest complaints because every AT could use more endurance and the 600% cap was higher than the "damage primary" ATs for a "damage secondary" AT. This whole thread should probably be locked until there's something new to actually talk about because all it's been lately is the occasional "nerf Brute survivability" post interspersed with "increase aggro cap" and the more recent "zomg Tankers so much damage*" that has flooded the last couple of pages. *: when permanently at the damage cap while running a seamless attack chain that always hits the target cap while using only 16-target melee AoEs, a situation that is completely laughable for all but one person 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicoliy Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I'll just wait for the next batch of changes. I just hope when they get to the proc changes it's not too bad. My warshade needs procs to have a good ST damage chain. They really are good at upping damage for lower dps toons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Myshkin Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 11 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said: On some of your other points: there is also issues with how they interact with epic pool attacks that are meant to have 2x recharge rate as a penalty, not as a bonus for PPM (this later is more of a PvP issue.) The irony of this fact has not escaped me, and it is a rather interesting dilemma. Pylon Test Run Submission Proc Monsters (Controller Edition) Proc Monsters (Defender Edition) Pylon Test Run Results Proc Monsters (Tanker Edition) "Mad King Special" "Ceterum autem censeo Iram esse delendam" Mad King Special - Force Edition (NEW!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summers Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) I'll chip in with my two cents around the AOE changes. I doubt any of these are revolutionary... The AOE changes sound simple, but it's really not well communicated. The powers should do what they say, and while the written descriptions are generally poor, the statistics are typically correct. A lot of players don't read the forums, debate on the forums, or go through multiple sources to find their answers. They should be able to find out what the power does simply by right clicking it... and if the arc/radius changes aren't in the power, then that's a problem. The simpler, the better, and I'd rather just see the powers properly adjusted to reflect what they really do. If that affects procs, then so be it. Suggestion: Make the power do what it says it does. You don't have to be 'saturated' to gain benefits from the increased AOE. This should be obvious, however it is sometimes argued so heavily from a saturated/farming perspective that it may be forgotten just how good the AOE size advantages are. You do not need to be above the target cap for the AOE size to be really good! Increased PBAOE radius: Same situation, Increased cone arc: What I like about the increased AOE size: I don't know if this is in the game right now, but increased taunt aura sizes would be a fantastic thing for Tankers and really help them get across their Tanker side. Enemies are often spread out, and sweeping them up with a wider taunt radius is something I'd like to see more of. It would, you know, make them better at being tanks... Edited November 8, 2019 by summers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenlon Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 11 hours ago, unknown said: This thread is making me think that inspirations drop WAY too often.... Nah, that's not a problem. Because the people who are claiming to be at damage cap all the time aren't. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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