Some Tweaks to Give Trick Arrow a Point

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

it makes more sense when you actually take into account that, again, the set natively doesn't light the oil slick.

You say "makes more sense" ... while the rest of say "Gimped By Design" ...

There's a difference.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

So to you, not being able to use 1 of your own powers is enough to give the entire set a "gimmick"?  If you have fire, archery, electricity, or any of of various other blast sets, then you *can* take advantage of that so-called "gimmick", so if the intent was to restrict it to effects only other party members can trigger, then it fails.  Perhaps it's not a gimmick at all - perhaps it's just an oversight and a sign that the set underperforms...

It certainly can be its gimmick if more powers and interactions were present like Oilslick Arrow.  And I said "synergy", not specifically teamwork i.e. requiring another member of the team.  If there was an interaction with another type of effect like a different debuff or another damage type or a specific power or set of powers that isn't fulfilled by fire, archery, electricity or whatever can light Oilslick Arrow, then your synergy is contained.  The intent would be give the set strong effects but only under specific controlled conditions.  You're sort of exaggerating it into "can't do everything thus underperform" when in reality, you're not suppose to be able to do it all.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

You say "makes more sense" ... while the rest of say "Gimped By Design" ...

There's a difference.

Again, you're exaggerating.  If it were gimped by design, then you'd be bitching if it could be lit regardless because EVERYONE ALREADY CAN LIGHT IT.

 

There's a difference.

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Leogunner said:

If it were gimped by design, then you'd be bitching if it could be lit regardless because EVERYONE ALREADY CAN LIGHT IT.

Nice strawman you're bearhugging there and refusing to accept responsibility for making up YOURSELF and accusing me of (projection much?).

8 hours ago, Leogunner said:

There's a difference.

Yes ... there is ... and you're resolutely missing it ... deliberately?

 

[Widower]

Hello, friends. Can we remember to discuss these matters civilly and without assuming that the other side is clearly evil and/or stupid? Thanks.

[Leogunner]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Nice strawman you're bearhugging there and refusing to accept responsibility for making up YOURSELF and accusing me of (projection much?).

Yes ... there is ... and you're resolutely missing it ... deliberately?

You're the one exaggerating to make a point and you're defense is too exaggerate more. Taking responsibility? Lol I think you've gone full defensive mode and you're terrible at it. 

 

My point, and likely Vanden's, is the ability to light oilslick is minor and superfluous. Putting up a power change for specifically that is hollow. You can disagree all you want but you ain't looking good getting all defensive because someone doesn't agree with the direction you want to go with the set. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

18 hours ago, Vanden said:

 B) You're essentially saying that lighting the Oil Slick is something that every TA character should expect to be able to do every time it's used, in which case the power should just light itself, rather than require two power picks.

This may have changed since live, but doesnt lighting the slick consume it or make it go away faster? So there's a reason to not light it out of the gate. 

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

This may have changed since live, but doesnt lighting the slick consume it or make it go away faster? So there's a reason to not light it out of the gate. 

Well, the numbers for its durations could always be tweaked. If it were changed to light itself, they could have it happen on a delay, giving players the chance to light it themselves earlier so it doesn't change the feel of the power.

[Shadowsleuth]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

If it were changed to light itself, they could have it happen on a delay, giving players the chance to light it themselves earlier so it doesn't change the feel of the power.

Or provide a button along with the power so that the player can remote ignite the oil slick when they want.

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, GM Widower said:

Hello, friends. Can we remember to discuss these matters civilly and without assuming that the other side is clearly evil and/or stupid? Thanks.

That's difficult to do when the guy with this avatar keeps claiming that I was advocating for the position articulated by the guy with this avatar and the first guy refuses all attempts to correct the error of his attribution.

 

23 hours ago, Vanden said:

I can see that you've mistaken my rhetorical question for an honest one. I understand perfectly what you're trying to suggest, I just think it's a bad idea because: A) Trick Arrow is supposed to be a Buff/Debuff set, and adding more damage isn't going to make it a better Buff/Debuff set, and B) You're essentially saying that lighting the Oil Slick is something that every TA character should expect to be able to do every time it's used, in which case the power should just light itself, rather than require two power picks.

 

 

I challenge  to either quote (without edits) where I ACTUALLY WROTE THAT ... or failing finding that in the record of the thread, offer an apology for attributing responsibility to the Red avatar something said by the Green avatar.

 

 

 

And just in case it will help, my position has consistently been that altering the T1 power to enable it to light the Oil Slick created by the T8 power, via adding an Energy DoT to the T1 power that already EXISTS in the game(!) in a proliferated version of the powerset, is a desirable outcome that will resolve ONE of the problems with how Trick Arrows powers synergize internally within the powerset.

[Zepp]

Where do all y'all think trick arrow should sit in the spectrum of support sets... on the dps end or on the support end of the spectrum? on the single target or multiple target end of the spectrum? on the buff or control end of the spectrum?

Defining perceptions of what ought to be may allow us to come to consensus about how it ought to change.

My perception is that it ought to be near the middle of the dps/support spectrum, leaning towards dps. It should be on the single target end of the spectrum. And it should be on the control end of the spectrum, but not all the way.

 

[Redlynne]

53 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Where do all y'all think trick arrow should sit in the spectrum of support sets... on the dps end or on the support end of the spectrum? on the single target or multiple target end of the spectrum? on the buff or control end of the spectrum?

Defining perceptions of what ought to be may allow us to come to consensus about how it ought to change.

My perception is that it ought to be near the middle of the dps/support spectrum, leaning towards dps. It should be on the single target end of the spectrum. And it should be on the control end of the spectrum, but not all the way.

Interesting question for framing the "balance" of expectations for the set.  I'll give you my take (since you asked).

 

DPS vs Support

Single Target vs AoE

Buff vs Control

 

My impression of what I'd want Trick Arrow to be is ... it can't be a One Trick Pony™.

I say that because my default approach to conceptualizing the powerset is that it ought to be (to use the vernacular) ... A Bag Of Tricks ... so to speak, rather than being a single concentrated purpose built "does only this" kind of powerset.  That means it ought to be eclectic in what it can "do" as a powerset, rather than having singular focus, but at the same time it needs to be something that synergizes/harmonizes with itself, such that you can put two things together and realize a combination that is more than just the sum of the two parts.

 

So using the parameters you've queried about:

• More Support than DPS, but not exclusively Support without DPS.
• A mix of Single Target and AoE, although given how the game actually works/plays the bias will necessarily be towards AoE.
• Buffs (as buffs) not really ... but Control AND Debuffs, most definitely.

To get more specific about that ... I'd need to work up a City of Data(-ish) layout of powers and parameters to more fully answer the question in ways that can speak to specifics rather than to generalities.

[Shazbotacus]

Payloads fired from a bow at enemies should logically all do such things as damage, control, and debuffs. Like modern or science fiction riot munitions and more unconventional, debilitating substances and agents that can be dispersed except in arrow form. I like that thought.

[Zepp]

Looking at the current state of affairs, the high DPS sets are Storm and Traps, and Trick Arrow leans to that end of the spectrum (although a match would help).

It is one of the most AoE oriented of the sets out there.

It is more moderate on control, moderate/high on debuff, and low on buff.

 

Is this where it should be?

[Redlynne]

In terms of basic concept ... yes ... that's where the set ought to be.

The problem comes in with the execution of that "vision" which wound up being badly UNbalanced relative to competing powersets, with unnecessary hindrances and obstacles to self-synergies thrown in all over the place.  Things like not being able to ignite Oil Slick without reaching OUTSIDE of the Trick Arrow powerset for an ignition source attack power (which is just Derp By Design).

[Leogunner]

12 hours ago, Redlynne said:

That's difficult to do when the guy with this avatar keeps claiming that I was advocating for the position articulated by the guy with this avatar and the first guy refuses all attempts to correct the error of his attribution.

 

 

 

I challenge  to either quote (without edits) where I ACTUALLY WROTE THAT ... or failing finding that in the record of the thread, offer an apology for attributing responsibility to the Red avatar something said by the Green avatar.

 

 

 

And just in case it will help, my position has consistently been that altering the T1 power to enable it to light the Oil Slick created by the T8 power, via adding an Energy DoT to the T1 power that already EXISTS in the game(!) in a proliferated version of the powerset, is a desirable outcome that will resolve ONE of the problems with how Trick Arrows powers synergize internally within the powerset.

When did I say you were advocating for Vanden's position?  I think you've misread some posts...

 

Any agreement I may hold with Vanden's point is merely a perspective I can possibly see his aligning with mine.  You posted a suggestion to make the set capable of lighting Oilslick Arrow and I'm merely responding with "Eh, that's not a problem with the set".

 

You've somehow twisted my rationality for a possible set gimmick of synergy as something else in your lame attempt at being defensible.

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You've somehow twisted my rationality for a possible set gimmick of synergy as something else in your lame attempt at being defensible.

Yup, Projection all the way down.  You argue in bad faith and have no problems with doing that.

You're not worth talking to on this subject anymore either.

[Trickshooter]

18 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

This may have changed since live, but doesnt lighting the slick consume it or make it go away faster? So there's a reason to not light it out of the gate. 

Don't think this was ever the case. As far as I'm aware, the oil has always lasted 30 seconds, and the fire lasts 15 seconds. If your intention is to use it to do damage, it's almost always best to light it as soon as possible; wait too long and the fire could outlast the oil and enemies can easily run out of it.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Yup, Projection all the way down.  You argue in bad faith and have no problems with doing that.

You're not worth talking to on this subject anymore either.

Be that as it may, I have no problem with it. I'll reply to you all day and I can match my tone to yours.  If I'm projecting, perhaps you want to reflect on your own replies because you're certainly projecting said "problem" on me while being outwardly perturbed.

[Bossk_Hogg]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

Where do all y'all think trick arrow should sit in the spectrum of support sets... on the dps end or on the support end of the spectrum? on the single target or multiple target end of the spectrum? on the buff or control end of the spectrum?

Defining perceptions of what ought to be may allow us to come to consensus about how it ought to change.

My perception is that it ought to be near the middle of the dps/support spectrum, leaning towards dps. It should be on the single target end of the spectrum. And it should be on the control end of the spectrum, but not all the way.

 

Single target is more or less pointless (no pun intended) in modern COH outside of PVP. AV fights are rare and don't last long compared to 99% of the rest of the game. Additionally, debuffs, other than -resist or -damage, are basically useless in those fights due to the stupid purple patch. Poison already has single target debuffing down (and poison isn't particularly good). TA is an AE set other than 2 powers and should absolutely remain that way to be true to the set.

 

It should be focused on AE support and control, with a minor in damage. Unfortunately the OG devs decided to nerf TA's controls so that they are weaker on defenders/corrupters than controllers. Therefore any buff to control helps controllers more than defenders with the current rules in place. I say ditch em, let TA be a set that breaks the parameters, and have the control numbers highest for defenders, followed then by controllers/corrupters, then masterminds. This would give TA a more unique niche in support sets.

 

As for support, the numbers need to go up, and powers need to do more than one thing. 

[Trickshooter]

My opinion on Oil Slick Arrow, for what it's worth, is that if the fire was some kind of "bonus," and not something intended to be used everytime, then maybe the power shouldn't be balanced around it. As of right now, though, it is. Without the fire, Oil Slick Arrow is a weaker version of Ice Slick that costs more endurance and takes twice as long to recharge.

 

Now, Oil Slick Arrow on a 90s timer sounds insane to me, so if we keep the 180s recharge, then I think a good compromise might be what Vanden said: have the oil automatically light after a delay, but leave the option to light it sooner. That way the player always has access to the effects that warrant the recharge and endurance cost.

 

In the grand scheme of things, though, this doesn't really improve Trick Arrows in any meaningful way. I agree that Entanging Arrow, Flash Arrow and Ice Arrow could use improvements, but honestly nearly every power in the set needs a bit of sprucing up, though some issues are very small compared to others.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Trickshooter said:

My opinion on Oil Slick Arrow, for what it's worth, is that if the fire was some kind of "bonus," and not something intended to be used everytime, then maybe the power shouldn't be balanced around it. As of right now, though, it is. Without the fire, Oil Slick Arrow is a weaker version of Ice Slick that costs more endurance and takes twice as long to recharge.

 

Now, Oil Slick Arrow on a 90s timer sounds insane to me, so if we keep the 180s recharge, then I think a good compromise might be what Vanden said: have the oil automatically light after a delay, but leave the option to light it sooner. That way the player always has access to the effects that warrant the recharge and endurance cost.

 

In the grand scheme of things, though, this doesn't really improve Trick Arrows in any meaningful way. I agree that Entanging Arrow, Flash Arrow and Ice Arrow could use improvements, but honestly nearly every power in the set needs a bit of sprucing up, though some issues are very small compared to others.

There are other differences in the power though, like OSA having a bigger area and a defense debuff component while Ice Slick has the -jump.  Also, is there a bug that removes set IOs from being slotted in Ice Slick?

 

That being said, I don't think the fire damage is a "bonus", per say.  It's the presence of it in the set that's the bonus.  Powers still have to conform to base standards for recharge, AoE, END cost, etc.  

[FDR's Think Tank]

I really really missed arguing with people in forums about how to "fix" the Trick Arrow set after the first nerfing of it from which it never really recovered.

 

It's great to see people so passionate about Archery!

 

I think it's core to remember Defender Archetypes are supposed to be TEAM PLAYERS. Perhaps it's easy to forget that since this game is largely cooperative... but the Defender is supposed to be an extra layer of that. Obviously people who buff others or heal others have that supportive nature built right into the playstyle. Trick Arrow is unique in the way that it doesn't Heal or Buff any team members on it's own. This is what set it apart from other Defenders and what lead to it getting nerfed. Early teams of Trick Arrow Defenders were grossly effective. We can probably all agree the intention was for Trick Arrows to work with other players... which is why I suggested each Trick Arrow having a gimmick that needs a specific element to set it off.  What I proposed was not a simple solution... but it's important to remember that the powerset really challenges the very bone structure of the game. If they can sort out Trick Arrow so it relies sufficiently on other players (Not also playing identical trick arrow builds) to shine, then I think they can even explore other similar debuff/offensive tilt defenders in the future. Or realize it's too much work to try that again. Either way... 

 

For simplicity, they should definitely beta test the Electric Net Swap out for Net Arrow... but I think most Trick Arrow Defenders would trade soloing speed for more teamwork gimmicks. Soloing with Trick Arrow Defenders is a real grind and moot now that you can do full archer Blasters or Arrow Sentinels. People who want to play the solo archer type shouldn't be doing a Defender. In the end, Game Balance has long been thrown out the window for City of Heroes. NCSoft stopped trying to balance it once they stopped working on the Arenas and it's not the factor that should be playtested. You want it to be FUN to play, but no so grossly overpowered that nobody plays anything else. That's why combo effects that require different elements to interact with them to fully unlock the potential are, in my opinion, the best way to go for Trick Arrow Defenders.

 

I personally have many obsessed ideas for a truly balanced Superhero themed MMO with minimal rebalancing ever needed while expansions are added, but I would never waste time arguing this game be rebuilt to incorporate those concepts.

Edited October 16, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Bossk_Hogg]

A gimmick of "being mediocre unless you have the combos required to bring your set up to snuff" is a pretty cruddy one. Not to mention harder to implement and balance. TA's main issue is purely that of numbers and limited scope of what it offers. It's debuff/soft control only, and not really good at debuffing. 

[Leogunner]

32 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

A gimmick of "being mediocre unless you have the combos required to bring your set up to snuff" is a pretty cruddy one. Not to mention harder to implement and balance. TA's main issue is purely that of numbers and limited scope of what it offers. It's debuff/soft control only, and not really good at debuffing. 

I think the crux of this counter is that it's fine being mediocre unless you specify specifically how it is not fine.

 

That being said, I recall the devs speaking about aspects of the engine that will grant them capabilities to do things once deemed impossible (like being vectored knockback giving them the ability to implement "knock towards").  Just some food for thought there.