About Knockback/Sudden Acceleration

[roleki]

While it is great that the Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown enhancement exists, it kind of sucks that some characters have to slot numerous copies if they want to use their powers in teams without scattering mobs to the four corners of the map.   

 

What's worse, the set bonuses for just dipping into SA are pretty common and these characters can easily find themselves over the Rule of 5, but the enhancements of the set itself make taking the full set an unattractive option in most cases.

 

Would it be possible to tweak the set bonuses of Sudden Acceleration to be more... interesting and front-loaded, to make up for having to dip a toe into that set just to have a more team-friendly build? 

 

Failing that, could the devs create an accolade that awards a toggle power that converts Knockback to Knockdown, so characters don't have to choose between an optimized build and a team-friendly build?

[MetaVileTerror]

I like the Accolade idea!  First time I've heard of that solution suggested for this particular problem.

[Rathulfr]

*checks calendar, nods*  Yep, it's about time for us to re-hash The Great KB-to-KD Debate again.  LOL!  😆

 

Yes, there should be an option for players to toggle KB-to-KD, if they want to do that, as long as it doesn't force other players who don't want that option.  Personally, I prefer having the freedom to choose which of my powers get KB versus those that get converted to KD (even if that means costing me a slot per power).  But we need to make sure that the "slot penalty" doesn't just get shifted in the other direction, though.

 

Knockback is, and has always been, part of the game's original design.  It's a feature of many ATs and power sets.  And many players actually like it (me, for example), even though many others don't.  Changing that is something that needs to be considered carefully, as it might break an entire village of cottage rules.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Galaxy Brain]

Making knockback to knockdown doesnt break any dang cottages.

 

Anyways, I'll always be in favor of options and stand by that knockback should be better. More damage when they get flung, something to make it actually attractive rather than groan inducing.

[Crysta Clear]

Do you know what is already a KB to KD toggle? Hover.

 

If you are above your target, you knock them back... away from you. Which is down.

 

Don't ever tell me what I have to slot.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Crysta Clear said:

Do you know what is already a KB to KD toggle? Hover.

 

If you are above your target, you knock them back... away from you. Which is down.

 

Don't ever tell me what I have to slot.

Dont tell me what powers I have to take 😉

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

*checks calendar, nods*  Yep, it's about time for us to re-hash The Great KB-to-KD Debate again.  LOL!  😆

 

Yes, there should be an option for players to toggle KB-to-KD, if they want to do that, as long as it doesn't force other players who don't want that option.  Personally, I prefer having the freedom to choose which of my powers get KB versus those that get converted to KD (even if that means costing me a slot per power).  But we need to make sure that the "slot penalty" doesn't just get shifted in the other direction, though.

 

Knockback is, and has always been, part of the game's original design.  It's a feature of many ATs and power sets.  And many players actually like it (me, for example), even though many others don't.  Changing that is something that needs to be considered carefully, as it might break an entire village of cottage rules.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't want to eliminate KB - my first character on Live was an en/en blaster, and I personally am fine with the mechanic as a damage mitigation tool AND as a source of amusement.  

 

That said, as good as knockback is while soloing, it is situational (at best) on teams.  It can still be put to effective use, but the KB pilot ends up doing way more calculus in-game than their peers with other mitigation effects.  

 

Enter the KB:KD enhancement.  It is a good solution!  Having that available has allowed me to completely reinvent my Fire/FF controller - I can actually wander on top of my Bonfire instead of putting it up like a wall!  I can have Repulsion Field going, and still use Hot Feet!  This is great!

 

But, even while I am enjoying these new possibilities, I can't help but reflect that in order to get HERE, I was forced to go THERE.  Very few other sets have to slot the same 1-trick-pony enhancement 5 times - even the LotG Global Recharge enhancement also enhances defense.   And the thing is, I could easily slot the KB:KD enhancement 6, 7, or 8 times in an En/En blaster, if my goal was to eliminate KB from the equation altogether.

 

I get that not everyone is 'KB-averse' because I am not, at all.  In fact, my HC En/En has a second build where I go for broke with the KB.  But even there, I had to spend (well, not a LOT, but a nonzero amount of) influence and burn a build slot so I could solo how I want AND team without holding back the heavy shots; most builds can get there without treading so carefully or investing as much time/effort into doing so.

 

That is why I would hope that a mechanic like the KB:KD Accolade toggle I suggested could be implemented - something available to anyone who REALLY wanted it, but not something that nerfs the original utility of KB in general.  I would gladly pay a 0.33 end/s 'tax' to convert KB:KD if it meant I could slot the rest of my build just like everyone else.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by roleki

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'd really like a toggle option or Null the Gull feature, at least for some sets. I think KB to KD in Bonfire for example is probably too good, and should totally require the slot. Anyone wishing to have some KD and some KB should probably also pay the slot tax for granularity. 

 

I know people keep saying they'll be forced to use it on teams... but you wouldnt be invited to teams that care about KB in the first place currently, so this argument doesnt really hold a lot of weight. 

[roleki]

14 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Do you know what is already a KB to KD toggle? Hover.

 

If you are above your target, you knock them back... away from you. Which is down.

 

Don't ever tell me what I have to slot.

Uh, duly noted.  I'll go and add the flight pool to all my

 

Hey wait a second, don't ever tell ME what I have to slot.

[Crysta Clear]

I didn't. I only said that I tend to take it. And I still don't use it when I'm in a team with someone that bitches about my knockback! 🙂

 

Learn to deal. It's not the end of the world to chase some enemies for a second or two.

 

The other thing I find immensely awkward is the bonuses of the enhancements in the set. Why does a set with a piece about capping your knockback at 0.67... have +Knockback on every other piece? Shouldn't it have no +knockback, since you're literally wasting that portion of each enhancement that has it?

Edited October 29, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[roleki]

@Bossk_Hogg Agreed that KB:KD in Bonfire may be a bit too good, especially when you can quite easily have 3 of them out at once.  I would gladly give that imbalance up to not have to over-slot Force Bolt just to keep dudes onscreen 

[Itikar]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I know people keep saying they'll be forced to use it on teams... but you wouldnt be invited to teams that care about KB in the first place currently, so this argument doesnt really hold a lot of weight. 

It probably would be a good quality filter to boot. 😛

[DougGraves]

I would be happy to have the ability to change kb to kd without requiring a slot or enhancement as long as they nerf all of the kb powers to account for being kd.

 

if this comes out balanced I am fine with it.  If this is just another request for more power I don't think we need more power.

[roleki]

@DougGraves What do you think would be an acceptable curb value, in a toggle scenario?  -10% Damage?  -10% Recharge?  No change,  but a 3.5PPM KB proc just to remind you it's there?

Edited October 29, 2019 by roleki

[DougGraves]

2 minutes ago, roleki said:

@DougGraves What do you think would be an acceptable curb value, in a toggle scenario?  -10% Damage?  -10% Recharge?  No change,  but a 3.5PPM KB proc just to remind you it's there?

I don't do numbers.  But the OP is requesting that they be able to not use 1 enhancement to change kb->kd so they can use that enhancement to be more powerful.  So that is just a request for power.

 

If you did not have to get a kb->kd enhancement and used that slot for something else and the resulting power was the same power as if you had to use a kb->kd enhancement then it would be balanced.  You would be saving the annoyance of needing to get a kb->kd enhancement but not becoming more powerful because you got it for free.

 

If the issue is solo vs team, it could be a toggle that changed kb->kd and gave a penalty of some sort to the power.  So you could turn it on while teaming and turn it off while soloing.  Then you would not have that penalty while soloing.

[Itikar]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

I would be happy to have the ability to change kb to kd without requiring a slot or enhancement as long as they nerf all of the kb powers to account for being kd.

 

if this comes out balanced I am fine with it.  If this is just another request for more power I don't think we need more power.

Actually the change from knockback to knockdown is generally a nerf by itself. Or at least it is so for ranged characters that happen to have more often knockback powers. The mitigation offered by knockdown is inferior to that offered by knockback because the knocked back foe has to stand up AND to come back to you, unless they use a ranged attack. And if they use a ranged attack they often will do less damage than they would in melee. On top of that many ranged characters have often a better ranged defence than melee. If you just knock them down they stand up and attack you on the spot, unless you also run away in the meantime, losing time or losing your position.

 

There are situations where changing from knockback to knockdown would be an advantage, such as the mentioned bonfire, but there are also many instances where the opposite is true.

 

I don't understand much of this anti-knockback mentality, personally, especially from people who have taken knockback powers, and even more if they have taken knockback-heavy powersets such as force fields. If I don't like what a power or a powerset does, I simply don't take it. But as long as the proposed change does not prevent people who enjoy those powersets to enjoy them as they are, I don't see a problem.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Itikar

[DougGraves]

Just now, Itikar said:

Actually the change from knockback to knockdown is generally a nerf by itself. Or at least it is so for ranged characters that happen to have more often knockback powers.

 

Any change a player chooses to make is assumed to be a buff.  They may be foolish and nerfing themselves, but if they chose to make the decision you can assume they chose it because it makes them better.

 

My first character was an energy/energy blaster.  I love knockback.  I spent a lot of time in Skyway knocking trolls off of the overpasses.  I do not want to see kb go away. 

 

But I also hate in games when something like bonfire works badly unless you know this trick that lets you turn it into one of the best powers in the game.  I'd rather not make that a secret players have to discover and level the playing field for players who do not search online for how to optimize their character.

[roleki]

I'm the OP, I am not asking for more ppwer than anyone else, just the same chance to be as effective as anyone else.  It's not some nefarious plan to squeeze more smashing damage out of my blaster, just asking for the same 6 slots that everyone else gets to use without setting aside one to negate an effect.

Edited October 29, 2019 by roleki

[Itikar]

6 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

My first character was an energy/energy blaster.  I love knockback.  I spent a lot of time in Skyway knocking trolls off of the overpasses.  I do not want to see kb go away.

Well, my second toon was a force fields/energy defender, and I enjoy knockback greatly with all the strategies associated with it. So neither do I.

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

I would be happy to have the ability to change kb to kd without requiring a slot or enhancement as long as they nerf all of the kb powers to account for being kd.

 

if this comes out balanced I am fine with it.  If this is just another request for more power I don't think we need more power.

Except we keep being told over and over that KB is a benefit (despite being really questionable). Energy Blast and Peacebringers don't deal more damage because they have to put up with knockback. Turning off a benefit shouldn't really have a cost.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

I didn't. I only said that I tend to take it. And I still don't use it when I'm in a team with someone that bitches about my knockback! 🙂

 

Learn to deal. It's not the end of the world to chase some enemies for a second or two.

 

The other thing I find immensely awkward is the bonuses of the enhancements in the set. Why does a set with a piece about capping your knockback at 0.67... have +Knockback on every other piece? Shouldn't it have no +knockback, since you're literally wasting that portion of each enhancement that has it?

It's not chasing "some enemies for a second or two". Its ruining the entire team's AE attacks because some dipshit peacebringer decides to lead every single attack with Solar Flare for pitiful damage and scatter the entire pack. 

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, roleki said:

That is why I would hope that a mechanic like the KB:KD Accolade toggle I suggested could be implemented - something available to anyone who REALLY wanted it, but not something that nerfs the original utility of KB in general.  I would gladly pay a 0.33 end/s 'tax' to convert KB:KD if it meant I could slot the rest of my build just like everyone else.

 

If this toggle doesn't take enhancements and ignores outside buffs, I think that amount of endurance is a good price to pay. I'd make it 0.54 end/s if it were completely up to me, but I realize that's just me being punitive just to do it.

[Dragon Crush]

No idea how hard it would be to code any of this, but I'd like to see some badges for total distance foes have been knocked back, and changing the proposed accolade toggle idea based on rank you have for those badges. KB 50 or 250 yards along with another couple badges or story arcs and you get a toggle that reduces KB on most powers to knockdown (agree bonfire should be excluded, and perhaps a couple others I'm not thinking of atm). First rank could have .5 end/s and 1 minute recharge, whereas after getting badge for knocking back foes 10 miles for example, it costs .1 end/s and recharges in 10 seconds with granularity in between.

 

Another idea that I'd find amusing, if not necessarily balanced, would be bonus damage based on KB distance. Kicking crey off skyscrapers for fun and profit.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Dragon Crush said:

Another idea that I'd find amusing, if not necessarily balanced, would be bonus damage based on KB distance. Kicking crey off skyscrapers for fun and profit.

I would fully support any reward that would encourage punching snipers off the roof of one building onto the roof of another building.

[Lost Ninja]

Add inherent power at level 2 (same as Rest/Fitness/etc).

When on it makes all knock powers knock back, when off it makes all knock powers knock down.

Everyone is then on the same playing field, IOs that currently flip one to the other would still work but in reverse to what the inherent is set to allowing people to have one knock back while running as knock down... etc

 

Sufficiently high magnitude knock powers should also translate into a lower mag stun... IMO but that is another suggestion... 😄