[Proposal] UNGIMPING basic Peacebringer design game mechanics

[Redlynne]

Far back in the mists of ancient time (as in Dec 2011) Peacebringers remained saddled with a mistake of poor game mechanical design choices that had been inflicted upon them since Issue 3 when they were first introduced.  Thanks to the Cottage Rule there was never a serious attempt made to correct the deficiencies arising from the fundamental underpinnings of the design of 12 Peacebringer powers.

 

The basic mistake was mapping Energy Blast/Energy Melee "too closely" (or perhaps "too faithfully") onto Peacebringers without fully realizing or understanding the self-gimping burden that doing those simple (stupid?) ports of powers over directly would yield and result in when actually played.

 

What mistake?

 

Well, actually there are two of them ... but the first one is this ...

 

 

 

Peacebringer Human Form KB Powers

• Gleaming Blast (Ranged): 1.869 KnockBACK (10% chance)
  
• Radiant Strike (Melee): 2 KnockBACK (60% chance)
  
• Luminous Detonation (Target AoE): 3.739 KnockBACK (50% chance)
  
• Incandescent Strike (Melee): 0.67 KnockBACK (80% chance)
  
• Solar Flare (PBAoE): 4.154 KnockBACK (80% chance)
  
• Photon Seekers (Pet): 2.077 KnockBACK (50% chance)
  
• Dawn Strike (PBAoE): 18.694 KnockBACK (100% chance)

Peacebringer Nova Form KB Powers

• Bright Nova Blast (Ranged): 1.869 KnockBACK (10% chance)
  
• Bright Nova Detonation (Target AoE): 3.739 KnockBACK (50% chance)

Peacebringer Dwarf Form KB Powers

• White Dwarf Strike (Melee): 0.67 KnockBACK (30% chance)
  
• White Dwarf Smite (Melee): 0.67 KnockBACK (30% chance)
  
• White Dwarf Flare (PBAoE): 0.67 KnockBACK (80% chance)

 

Now in the context of the game's design in Issue 3 ... a lot of this made a lot of sense, since this is pretty much a slightly "nerfed" port of Energy Blast over to Peacebringers, with the "nerf" side of things being the combination of KnockBACK with the RANDOM chances, yielding a frustratingly inconsistent (to the point of being downright unhelpful) combination of Knockabout factors that can easily overwhelm pretty much any attempts at coordination or strategy in group play (let alone Herd & Burn strategies for farming).  The Player can mitigate SOME of these problems through good gameplay (mainly good 3D angle to target positioning) whenever possible, but that isn't always possible due to map terrain features, resulting in unwanted performance results that are under extremely limited Player control.

 

 

 

I therefore propose the following changes be made to these powers here on the Homecoming servers to ... correct this legacy mistake ...

 

Peacebringer Human Form KB Powers

• Gleaming Blast (Ranged): 1.869 KnockUP (10% chance)
  
• Radiant Strike (Melee): 2 KnockUP (60% chance)
  
• Luminous Detonation (Target AoE): 3.739 KnockUP (50% chance)
  
• Incandescent Strike (Melee): 0.67 KnockUP (80% chance)
  
• Solar Flare (PBAoE): 4.154 KnockUP (80% chance)
  
• Photon Seekers (Pet): 2.077 KnockUP (50% chance)
  
• Dawn Strike (PBAoE): 18.694 KnockUP (100% chance)

Peacebringer Nova Form KB Powers

• Bright Nova Blast (Ranged): 1.869 KnockUP (10% chance)
  
• Bright Nova Detonation (Target AoE): 3.739 KnockUP (50% chance)

Peacebringer Dwarf Form KB Powers

• White Dwarf Strike (Melee): 0.67 KnockUP (30% chance)
  
• White Dwarf Smite (Melee): 0.67 KnockUP (30% chance)
  
• White Dwarf Flare (PBAoE): 0.67 KnockUP (80% chance)

 

Note that the MAGnitutde and proc chance for Knock effects remain UNCHANGED.

The only change that I am proposing to make here is to alter the VECTOR of the Knock effects, so as to orient them "UP" (away from the nadir and towards the sky/heavens) in every case, rather than orient them "AWAY" from the Peacebringer casting their power(s).

 

My rationale for this edit/change of the Peacebringer powers in this way is as follows ...

 

 

 

Warshades are a GRAVITY based archetype.  So many of their powers thematically involve INCREASING Gravity on affected $Targets (just read the names of the powers if you're not sure about this point).

• Gravimetric Snare
  
• Gravity Well
  
• Gravitic Emanation
  
• Gravity Shield

The game mechanical effect of (increased) Gravity was decided to be expressed as a generalized (universal) Movement Slow and Recharge Debuffing effects.

 

 

 

Peacebringers are thematically the "opposites" of Warshades on a whole host of levels (light versus dark being just the start of it).

So what's the ... (equal and) opposite ... of a Gravity Increase?

 

Duh ... ANTI-GRAVITY ...

 

Simply from a thematic/conceptual standpoint, what Peacebringer powers that do Knock effect ought to be doing is applying an Anti-Gravity Field to their $Targets, which will "launch them upwards" from the ground/planet they're standing on towards the STARS and SPACE that they consider to be "home" for them as a space-faring species.  This means that their powers would be UNLIKE those of a Energy Blast or a Force Field "push" resulting in KnockBACK, where the vector of acceleration is angled away from the caster and through the $Target.  In effect, what Peacebringers ought to be doing is temporarily REVERSING GRAVITY (subject to the RNG chances of success depending on the power) on their $Targets, which would result in those $Targets being hurled away FROM THE PLANET underneath them ... rather than being knocked back away from the Peacebringer.

 

In other words, the Peacebringer's powers ought to not be pushing $Targets away from the Peacebringer (KnockBACK) ... but rather pushing $Targets away from the local source of Gravity, meaning the PLANET (KnockUP).

 

 

 

Make that one little edit to 12 Peacebringer attack powers and the Archetype will suddenly gain in popularity AND in team friendliness.

 

Change KnockBACK into KnockUP for all Peacebringer attack powers and you will have "solved" a mistake that was made before 2005 and which never got corrected by Cryptic/Paragon Studios in 8 years.

That's all that's required to make Peacebringers what they SHOULD HAVE BEEN ... rather than what they WERE.

[Redlynne]

The second change that I would recommend is correcting the insult to injury that is the difference between Pulsar (Peacebringer power) and Gravimetric Emanation (Warshade power).

 

Just look at the disparity between these two powers.

 

Pulsar

• PvE damage scale: 0.000000
  
• Accuracy: 0.8
  
• Cast time: 3 seconds
  
• Endurance cost: 15.6
  
• Attack types: (PB)AOE
  
• Effect area: Sphere
  
• Radius: 20 feet
  
• Max targets hit: 10
  
• 13.41s Stunned (mag 2) (PvE)
  
• 13.41s Stunned (mag 1) (50% chance) (PvE)
  
• 2s Stunned (mag 2) (PvP)

 

Gravitic Emanation

• PvE damage scale: 0.400000
  
• Accuracy: 1
  
• Cast time: 1 seconds
  
• Endurance cost: 14.352
  
• Effect area: Cone
  
• Radius: 40 feet
  
• Arc: 45 degrees
  
• Max targets hit: 10
  
• 17.8 Negative damage (PvE)
  
• 9.347 Knockback (PvE)
  
• 13.41s Stunned (mag 3) (PvE)
  
• 65.05 Negative damage (PvP)
  
• 9.347 Knockback (PvP)
  
• 2s Stunned (mag 3) (PvP)
  
• -20% Str(JumpHeight, RechargeTime) for 10s (PvE and PvP)
  
• -20% SpeedJumping, SpeedRunning, SpeedFlying for 10s (PvE and PvP)

 

So ... cross-comparing these two powers against each other, point by point ...

• Damage Scale: advantage Warshade (0.0 vs 0.4)
  
• Accuracy: advantage Warshade (0.8 vs 1.0)
  
• Cast Time: advantage Warshade (3s vs 1s)
  
• Endurance Cost: advantage Warshade (15.6 vs 14.352)
  
• Stunned MAG: advantage Warshade (2 w/ 50% chance for 3 vs 3 every time)
  
• Stunned Duration: equal (13.41s each)
  
• Damage: advantage Warshade (0.0 vs 17.8 Negative)
  
• Knock Effect: advantage Warshade (0.0 vs 9.347)
  
• Stun Powers Available to Archetype for Stun Stacking: advantage Warshade (Pulsar vs Gravitic Emanation AND Inky Aspect)

 

There is literally NO aspect of Pulsar that is in ANY WAY superior ... let alone on par, aside from Stun Duration ... with Gravitic Emanation for a Warshade.  Each and every single parameter you care to look at is qunatitatively superior for a Warshade than a Peacebringer when it comes to being able to use (and stack!) Stuns on $Targets.  There simply IS NO CONTEST here.  Everything about these two powers tilts towards the Warshades ... including the fact that Gravitic Emanation can increase the area that it affects by slotting Range enhancements into the power, while Pulsar canNOT increase its area of effect because it's a PBAoE sphere.

 

So right from the get-go, it is beyond obvious that the Peacebringer power Pulsar is GIMPED BY DESIGN compared to its direct counterpart in Gravitic Emanation.

 

 

 

I therefore propose the following changes be made to Pulsar for Peacebringers.

• Reduce Recharge from 45 seconds to 20 seconds
  
• Increase base Stun MAG from 2 to 3, but keep the 50% chance for +1 MAG Stun as is
  
• Add 9.347 KnockUP effect (PvE and PvP) and add ability to slot Knockback enhancements into Pulsar

 

The net effect of these modifications to Pulsar would be to allow Pulsar to:

• Stack With Itself since there are no other Stun Powers available in the Peacebringer powerset(s) for Pulsar to stack with (unlike the Gravitic Emanation+Inky Aspect combo)
  
• Match the base Stun MAG of Gravitic Emanation (at 3) with a 50% chance to add +1 Stun MAG (for a total of 4) capable of one hit Stun against Bosses
  
• Give the power the Knock (in this case, UP) effect it needs to be able to slot in Knockback enhancements and sets, with the Kinetic Crash and Force Feedback sets being of especial interest.
  
• Pulsar: 3s animation + 20s recharge = 23s
  
• Gravitic Emanation: 1s animation + 45s recharge = 46s
  
  • Unenhanced ... a Peacebringer ought to be able to deliver and recharge 2 Pulsars (23*2=46s) in the time it takes a Warshade to deliver and recharge 1 Gravitic Emanation (46s) ... because Peacebringers have nothing to stack Pulsar Stun with, while Warshades have Inky Aspect to stack Gravitic Emanation Stun with (pretty much immediately).

 

 

 

Over to you, Homecoming Dev Team ...

[leese]

I'll sign this. Seems reasonable.

[Piledriver]

I don't agree this is a way to go. Especially throwing knockup on a bunch of blasts would look strange to anyone who didn't absorb a bunch of stylized anime before they could throw a ball in the real world.

 

Instead, if the wealth of knockback is viewed as an issue on Khelds, perhaps a global "knockback to knockdown" proc could be added to one of the Kheldian ATOs.

[_NOPE_]

If I recall correctly, knock up and knockdown are the same game mechanic effect with just a different animation tied to them, and they are BOTH tied to the same spectrum/scale as knock back. Knockdown/up is basically the same ability as knock back, but at a lower magnitude.

 

I don't think it should be too tough to make such a change, as Castle did something similar with Force Field's Repulsion Bomb.

 

Until that can happen... I believe there's a new "knock back to knockdown" enhancement that perhaps Leandro's team added to the game? Maybe check that out?

[Microcosm]

I'll sign, with the caveat that gravitic emanation should remain superior in some way because it is a cone instead of pbaoe and harder to use. There are more kbs than there should be on the waeshade side too, but pbs are definitely worse off.

[Redlynne]

If I recall correctly, knock up and knockdown are the same game mechanic effect with just a different animation tied to them, and they are BOTH tied to the same spectrum/scale as knock back.

 

ALL Knock* effects rely on the same magnitude system.

KnockDOWN is simply KnockBACK with a MAG of less than 1.  Most of the time this will be MAG 0.67 or MAG 0.75 by default if you go digging around in the data for powers (helpful link provided for the curious).

KnockBACK is simply KnockBACK with a MAG of 1 or greater.  Most of the time this will be MAG 1.25 or greater.

KnockUP is simply KnockBACK with the vector for the Knock direction changed.  Instead of being "away from caster" it is instead "away from down/ground" ... that's the only difference.  It is, however, a distinctly different function call from the powers database, even though it uses the same MAG of Knock system as the previous two options.

 

Knockdown/up is basically the same ability as knock back, but at a lower magnitude.

 

Incorrect.

ANY Knock* MAG of below 1 is what Players consider to be a KnockDOWN (because that's what it "looks like" to a Player).

ANY Knock* MAG of 1 or more will "move" a target from its original location (dramatically more in cases of increased MAG).

This is the reason why you can take a Level 50 PC into Atlas Park and "golf" Level 1 Hellions with a KnockDOWN power ... because the level differential (50 vs 1) multiplies the MAG of the KnockDOWN so much that it becomes a KnockBACK effect (because the MAG gets modified to be (much?) greater than 1).

 

Observe ...

Air Superiority ... is a 0.75 KnockUP effect.

Levitate in Mind Control ... is a 12.463 KnockUP effect.

 

Both of these powers "throw $Target into the air" because they are KnockUP effects.  The only difference between them as far as KnockUP goes is the MAG.

Air Superiority "flips" the $Target in place, but they don't really go anywhere, because the MAG is (supposed to be) below 1.  Consequently, far too many people interpret this as a KnockDOWN when it's actually a "low power" KnockUP effect.

Levitate will "toss" the $Target into the air with a pretty decent hang time, because the MAG is in excess of 1 (by a good bit).  If you slot Levitate with Knockback enhancers, you'll increase the "loft" distance of the power.

Don't believe me?  Look at the City of Data reference links I've provided here.

 

 

This is just one of those things that everyone "thinks they know" ... when in fact they don't actually know what's going on under the (game mechanical) hood.

 

Until that can happen... I believe there's a new "knock back to knockdown" enhancement that perhaps Leandro's team added to the game? Maybe check that out?

 

Um ... slots are tight enough already on Peacebringers ... I'd rather have the solution baked into the game mechanics at the database level, rather than needing to waste up to 12 slots on fixing a problem that has existed since Issue 3.

 

Also, I don't see any KnockBACK to KnockUP converter IOs lying around anywhere, because this is a change that has to be made at the powers database level.  It's not something that can be slotted into a Power as an enhancement.

[Dr. Cyclone]

I'm with Redlynne.

 

Trick Arrow and Ninja pets could use some love too.

[_NOPE_]

If I recall correctly, knock up and knockdown are the same game mechanic effect with just a different animation tied to them, and they are BOTH tied to the same spectrum/scale as knock back.

 

ALL Knock* effects rely on the same magnitude system.

KnockDOWN is simply KnockBACK with a MAG of less than 1.  Most of the time this will be MAG 0.67 or MAG 0.75 by default if you go digging around in the data for powers (helpful link provided for the curious).

KnockBACK is simply KnockBACK with a MAG of 1 or greater.  Most of the time this will be MAG 1.25 or greater.

KnockUP is simply KnockBACK with the vector for the Knock direction changed.  Instead of being "away from caster" it is instead "away from down/ground" ... that's the only difference.  It is, however, a distinctly different function call from the powers database, even though it uses the same MAG of Knock system as the previous two options.

 

Knockdown/up is basically the same ability as knock back, but at a lower magnitude.

 

Incorrect.

ANY Knock* MAG of below 1 is what Players consider to be a KnockDOWN (because that's what it "looks like" to a Player).

ANY Knock* MAG of 1 or more will "move" a target from its original location (dramatically more in cases of increased MAG).

This is the reason why you can take a Level 50 PC into Atlas Park and "golf" Level 1 Hellions with a KnockDOWN power ... because the level differential (50 vs 1) multiplies the MAG of the KnockDOWN so much that it becomes a KnockBACK effect (because the MAG gets modified to be (much?) greater than 1).

 

Observe ...

Air Superiority ... is a 0.75 KnockUP effect.

Levitate in Mind Control ... is a 12.463 KnockUP effect.

 

Both of these powers "throw $Target into the air" because they are KnockUP effects.  The only difference between them as far as KnockUP goes is the MAG.

Air Superiority "flips" the $Target in place, but they don't really go anywhere, because the MAG is (supposed to be) below 1.  Consequently, far too many people interpret this as a KnockDOWN when it's actually a "low power" KnockUP effect.

Levitate will "toss" the $Target into the air with a pretty decent hang time, because the MAG is in excess of 1 (by a good bit).  If you slot Levitate with Knockback enhancers, you'll increase the "loft" distance of the power.

Don't believe me?  Look at the City of Data reference links I've provided here.

 

 

This is just one of those things that everyone "thinks they know" ... when in fact they don't actually know what's going on under the (game mechanical) hood.

 

Until that can happen... I believe there's a new "knock back to knockdown" enhancement that perhaps Leandro's team added to the game? Maybe check that out?

 

Um ... slots are tight enough already on Peacebringers ... I'd rather have the solution baked into the game mechanics at the database level, rather than needing to waste up to 12 slots on fixing a problem that has existed since Issue 3.

 

Also, I don't see any KnockBACK to KnockUP converter IOs lying around anywhere, because this is a change that has to be made at the powers database level.  It's not something that can be slotted into a Power as an enhancement.

 

[Redlynne]

 

Okay, that's a +1 INF reply!

[_NOPE_]

HEY! I just dinged to 50!

 

... on the forums. Still haven't gotten anyone to 50 in-game again since the resurgence...

 

Thanks!

[Microcosm]

I don't want to hijack your thread, but there is one more change that was always requested but never a priority enough, and that was to keep toggled powers on while shape shifted, but remove their affects/ endurance cost while in a form. As is, retoggling is a big downside for using forms, and a warshade, for example, is usually going to completely skip things like orbiting death if they use forms at all.

 

This is lower on the list than the kb thing, but if we're talking about fixing the issues with the at from the beginning, we can't forget that.

[BioHaz81]

Played PB to 50 near their release, with all the old mechanics and hindrances. There was no problem with the single target knockbacks. maybe some of the aoe's.

[Redlynne]

I don't want to hijack your thread, but there is one more change that was always requested but never a priority enough, and that was to keep toggled powers on while shape shifted, but remove their affects/ endurance cost while in a form. As is, retoggling is a big downside for using forms, and a warshade, for example, is usually going to completely skip things like orbiting death if they use forms at all.

 

This is lower on the list than the kb thing, but if we're talking about fixing the issues with the at from the beginning, we can't forget that.

Ideally speaking, that would be a separate request thread, since it's not something specific to Peacebringers, but is instead something that applies to Kheldians (Peacebringers and Warshades) more broadly.  I've got an idea of how to tackle that problem, but I'll post it in another thread so that idea can be addressed on its own merits.

[deathevan]

I can get behind why you want these changes from an optimization standpoint but knockup on the blasts doesn't make any sense to me. Thematically the anti-grav thing doesn't really mesh with all the lore i've read about them. Nictus/warshade modified themselves but PBs are pure energy manip. Everything else im 100% in agreement with

[Rylas]

That's a well thought out suggestion. I might suggest that Nova attacks be given knockdown instead, seeing as most of the time the attacks would be coming from the air. But that's me being a little literal on phsyics.

 

Solid post.

[JusticeBowler]

I promise I'm not following you around the forums, Redlynne. :)

 

SIGNED/  As a guy who really wanted to make his human form Peacebringer workable with teams, instead of randomly causing tactics issues, yeah. But I'll admit those knockBACKs were nice when I soloed (are you supposed to solo a Peacebringer?)

 

I really, really wish knockBACK was cool outside of solo play and I'm going to revisit this issue in my builds now that CoH is "back." I'm determined to look into the sets that have inherent knockBACK and try to rethink them differently. KnockBACK feels superhero-ish... and farming not so much. (People can farm if they want to, it just isn't my bag.)

[_NOPE_]

Knockback is cool. People that think it isn't just haven't learned how to use it properly.

 

LRN2KB PEEPLES!!!

[City_of_Jedi]

I might actually roll a PB if these changes were implemented.  I had an idea where a Rikti and a Kheldian fused, but I couldn't make it work, mechanically. 

 

/signed

[Blastit]

I don't agree this is a way to go. Especially throwing knockup on a bunch of blasts would look strange to anyone who didn't absorb a bunch of stylized anime before they could throw a ball in the real world.

 

Instead, if the wealth of knockback is viewed as an issue on Khelds, perhaps a global "knockback to knockdown" proc could be added to one of the Kheldian ATOs.

 

I think it's fine that it would look weird. Kheldians are aliens, after all, and being as they were the first EAT and that Peacebringers have always been kinda overshadowed, giving them something that's both an improvement in team-play convenience and funky looking is well deserved.

[Zep]

I played a PB to 50 and beyond in the old world. I never once had a problem with KB brought up on a team.

 

I know KB gets a lot of hate, and as a melee I dont want to chase things around either, I dont think all the KB hate is deserved. When soloing my PB (specially now that I am leveling him again) I find the KB very helpful soloing. It keeps whole groups from retaliating all at once and manage my incoming damage while burning them all down.

 

When teaming and in Nova form I tend to be as high up as possible. This is a great defensive position making it really hard for melee ranged attacks to hit me. Also changes the direction of the KB.

 

On the old server I had two builds I used post 50. Tri form (my preferred) and Human only (also TF viable) and teamed up a fair amount with this character.

 

I even recall using some of the KB sets on him -- though that could be wrong I done have any of his builds laying around.

 

The character I had that would occasionally get comments about KB was my Fire/Storm controller and specifically with Tornado.

 

I dont seeing the change to knock up/down being ultimately significant - both I could see having their own problems. In the case of KD if the mag is increased we are back to KB - with KU as the mag increases (when their is no roof) and things are in the air longer we are going to get back to the same problem of melee ranged attacks not reaching the target.

 

Anyhow :) My thoughts on the matter.

[Solarverse]

KnockDOWN would be more like it, which if memory serves, is a .67 mag knockback. Which means it is only knock back against enemies who have zero knock resist or con green. I would stop playing my PB if everything was suddenly changed to a knockup. It would look silly to me, I can't get on board with a knockup. Change it to knockdown and you won my heart. I have made similar suggestions for Energy Blast back when the game was live. So I would actually like to see this added to both AT's.

[Snapple]

The real solution is to convert ALL knock backs in the game to knock downs or knock ups. While this game is amazing,  it is also the exact example of why knockback is a bad power effect. At all times. It is simply not worth the amount of horrible energy blasters, for the one storm who understands how to herd. Additionally hurricane and similar powers being a repel is fine.

[kelly Rocket]

I support this suggestion, if only to save me from all the newbies rolling PBs as their first characters because there's no entry requirement anymore.

[Solvernia]

PBs are actually disgustingly good at their job, no changes necessary.

 

Also, knockback is the single best form of CC in the game. Mobs can't kill players when they're being chucked 50 feet through the air on loop.