[Proposal] UNGIMPING basic Peacebringer design game mechanics

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, Twisted Toon said:

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If you want me to use my KB in a beneficial manner, and you are the one taunting the enemy groups into a huddle, you had best make sure that that huddle is NOT in the middle of an open area.[/quote]

 

Here's the thing... in general, people dont want you to use your knockback AT ALL. Even mediocre teams don't need the crappy "protection". At best, it makes stuff slightly safer On average, it makes things slower and more dangerous. Its high annoyance/risk for little to no reward.  

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Now the reverse question for you. What makes you so special that you that you can dictate other people's power choices? Cause I know you're itching to suggest getting hover so us KB people can Hover above the mobs and knock them back into the ground.

Clearly the person asking you not to grief your own team is the real villain. They get to tell you to wrangle your mediocre powerset because it makes things more irritating/slow/dangerous for the other 7 members. 

 

And yes, you should be hovering and knocking stuff to the ground. That you fight even this shows how useless a teammate you are. But hey, surely everyone else is wrong about knockback but a few fetishists on the forum. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Haijinx]

I suppose you could slot Sudden Acceleration KB to KD in all those KB powers you take- but that would eat up tons of slots and Kheldians are slot starved.

 

So definitely some/all should get either KD or KU instead I think.  

 

Or allow the Sudden Acceleration KB to KD to be slotted in Nova and Dwarf and affect all their branching powers.  That way it would save some of the slots

 

======

Additionally for Khelds in general, I have 2 suggestions - 

The toggles for the shields should stay on when you change forms (but be suppressed)  

And they should get a tiny (maybe mag 2) status protection in one of the shields for the basics (hold/sleep/disorient) 

 

 

 

[DSorrow]

On 5/30/2019 at 5:01 PM, Redlynne said:

That way, it becomes a question of Player Control for how much Knock they're throwing around.

Of course, every time I've suggested that option, a crowd of people cry out that then they won't be "allowed" to use Knock in team situations due to social pressures.

I quite like this. The social pressure argument is pretty fun even now because many people will just kick you out of teams for using disruptive KB already so it's not like this option would spawn a new problem. 

 

On 5/30/2019 at 2:09 AM, Solarverse said:

To me it is simply this. You either play along the grain and not against the grain of the REST OF THE TEAM, or you are gone. No hard feelings, we simply didn't mix well.

This. Personally I quite like the concept of KB because it can be hilarious (a team of 8 Storm Summoners) or it can just be downright irritating (one bad Energy Blaster) all depending on the team's powerset composition - a problem that doesn't exist for any other type of secondary effect. In the latter case, I would kick the responsible player or quit the team because while I realize knocking things around is fun, I'm not looking to be irritated during my gaming time. Nothing personal in it, I just don't think that heavy KB and some playstyles can coexist in the same team in a way that all players have fun.

[Megajoule]

Should the title of this thread be changed to reflect what it's actually become, a ... "discussion" of the pros and cons of knockback (in general, not just for Kheldians)? Or a new one started?

[Haijinx]

Its obvious the devs began to see that KB had some issues teamwise or KB to KD IOs wouldnt exist.  

 

Khelds are a team focused AT by inherent.

 

Peacebringers just don't have enough slots to use them without losing something.

[Starforge]

As someone whose main character has been a PB since 2008, I don’t think I ever recall some other player getting butthurt about KB.

 

Maybe that’s due to mostly playing on RP servers but it’s never been an issue for me. Most reasonable people I assume just know to expect some KB with a PB on the team.

 

It’s not something that’s going to make or break a team so not really worth getting upset or kicking someone off a team over.

[Twisted Toon]

18 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Here's the thing... in general, people dont want you to use your knockback AT ALL. Even mediocre teams don't need the crappy "protection". At best, it makes stuff slightly safer On average, it makes things slower and more dangerous. Its high annoyance/risk for little to no reward.  

That is either an overly generalized statement, or you are using anecdotal evidence from your own teaming experience where you have aggressively campaigned for the removal of all knockback. I have not experienced any PuGs that have had issues my KB powers. And I requested that they let me know if my KB was bothering them the instant I joined the team. I don't think the hate for all things KB is as wide spread as you imagine it is.

 

18 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Clearly the person asking you not to grief your own team is the real villain. They get to tell you to wrangle your mediocre powerset because it makes things more irritating/slow/dangerous for the other 7 members. 

 

And yes, you should be hovering and knocking stuff to the ground. That you fight even this shows how useless a teammate you are. But hey, surely everyone else is wrong about knockback but a few fetishists on the forum. 

If that person is attempting to dictate the power choices, slotting, and powers usage of another player, then yes, he is a villain. Suggestions are fine. Demands are not.

 

You, clearly, haven't seen KB used in a beneficial way with the proper setup by the herder. Probably because you don't know how to herd properly.

 

Yes, everyone that advocates that KB is useless is wrong.

5 hours ago, DSorrow said:

This. Personally I quite like the concept of KB because it can be hilarious (a team of 8 Storm Summoners) or it can just be downright irritating (one bad Energy Blaster) all depending on the team's powerset composition - a problem that doesn't exist for any other type of secondary effect. In the latter case, I would kick the responsible player or quit the team because while I realize knocking things around is fun, I'm not looking to be irritated during my gaming time. Nothing personal in it, I just don't think that heavy KB and some playstyles can coexist in the same team in a way that all players have fun.

The interesting thing with Energy Blasters, is they have enough ST attacks that they can easily not irritate the entire team and still attack. That one bad Energy Blaster, however, might be using his Energy Torrent at every opportunity. It was a lesson I had to learn early on when I was teaming with mine. Of course, it does help if the herder takes half a second to assist in the mitigation of the Blaster's KB. That is, if the Blaster is wanting to mitigate his KB. I've run across a few that either intentionally grief the team, or are oblivious that their KB is causing problems Usually the latter). It is unfortunate that some people seem to have only encountered those KB users rather than one who actually knows how to use it beneficially and then assume the problem is with the KB and not the user.

 

[Haijinx]

Good points.  The energy blaster can also solve most of their KB woes with 3 slots.

 

Actually having played one with KB to KDs in all the AOEs .. ill say its a thing of beauty.

 

Converting the KB on PB would be huge.

[Rylas]

7 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I quite like this. The social pressure argument is pretty fun even now because many people will just kick you out of teams for using disruptive KB already so it's not like this option would spawn a new problem. 

As a predominantly melee player, I absolutely loathe KB. That said, when I form pick up groups (which is a fair amount of the time I play), I won't exclude people because they play Energy Blast or Nova Form Khelds or anything KB heavy. I try to herd groups to good spots for them to KB into walls or corners and politely request they try to take advantage of that since a lot of sets I play require having mobs around my toon. For the most part, this works out. And when a player doesn't feel like using team work, I'll leave after a mission is done and do something else or start a new PUG. 

 

9 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Or allow the Sudden Acceleration KB to KD to be slotted in Nova and Dwarf and affect all their branching powers.  That way it would save some of the slots.

 

That.... would be pretty ideal. I wonder if that's feasible.

[Justisaur]

I'll add my voice to at least an option to turn some or all of the KB to KU for PBs.  I think that would be extra fun!

[Redlynne]

Kind of amusing to see the ... renaissance ... this thread has had after it got bumped back up onto the front page.

 

I'm still of the opinion that simply converting ALL of the KnockBACK that Peacebringers do into being KnockUP instead would "solve" a number of problems with them and give them a very unique (and uniquely obvious) influence on combat in groups.  Watching everything around the aggro magnet fly up into the air and then land with a thud without scattering them across the map ... would be awe inspiring.  To my knowledge there are single target KnockUP powers scattered around various powersets (including Air Superiority in the Flight pool, of all places), but I'm hard pressed to think of a single AoE KnockUP power with a MAG of more than 0.75.  Let Peacebringers hold that niche role and watch the appreciation start pouring in.

[Razor Cure]

Only had a WS on Live and a baby PB, but getting rid of that awful KB would be awesome. Everytime I am on a team with a PB, i want to murder them within 5 seconds.

I cant recall the rech an GranEm..45? But having SOlar Flare down to 20, base, seems stupidly good. Thanks like sub 10, with IOs, which is crazy.

Perhaps some of the blasts or melees could have a stun tacked on too.

Also..from building my own WS way back when, teh amount of slots is just..painful. Sure, IOs and hamis are a godsend, but considering the Form powers themself NEED slotting, then the attacks do..it seems a bit unfair.

What if the Form attack powers start with teh amount of slots you put in said form.

SO..Dwarf Form..give it 3 slots (that is default slot +2extra from teh 'slot pool'), then those dwarf attacks START with 3, and adding more 'costs' slots as normal.

No idea if that would explode the game though.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Razor Cure

[DSorrow]

 

13 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

It is unfortunate that some people seem to have only encountered those KB users rather than one who actually knows how to use it beneficially and then assume the problem is with the KB and not the user.

But I think this exactly highlights the problem with KB: it's the only type of secondary effect that requires a player to be aware of its effect on the team to avoid being annoying. Having said that, most of the time KB doesn't bother me too much, either I'm playing a ranged character or the other players have a decent idea of how to manage KB. Besides, KB is a funny mechanic, but it can extremely irritating in the right (wrong) circumstances, which unfortunately usually means a new player trying to have fun with his character who's powerful enough to toss enemies around only to be told to stop or else.

 

Then again, for PBs specifically, the issue with KB is that basically every attack does it and you don't really have the slots to put -KB in everything to counter it.

[Twisted Toon]

2 hours ago, DSorrow said:

 

But I think this exactly highlights the problem with KB: it's the only type of secondary effect that requires a player to be aware of its effect on the team to avoid being annoying. Having said that, most of the time KB doesn't bother me too much, either I'm playing a ranged character or the other players have a decent idea of how to manage KB. Besides, KB is a funny mechanic, but it can extremely irritating in the right (wrong) circumstances, which unfortunately usually means a new player trying to have fun with his character who's powerful enough to toss enemies around only to be told to stop or else.

 

Then again, for PBs specifically, the issue with KB is that basically every attack does it and you don't really have the slots to put -KB in everything to counter it.

It might be the secondary effect that requires the most attention, but it's not the only one. Stuns will cause the mobs to wander all over the place. Usually spreading out to make AoE less efficient. AoE Immobilizes, Holds and sleeps, if not applied correctly will keep the mobs spread out, reducing the effectiveness of damaging AoEs. Most every secondary effect needs to have some attention applied to it for optimal effectiveness. Some of them need other secondary effects to negate the downsides of their own effect. Stuns for example.

[DSorrow]

2 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

It might be the secondary effect that requires the most attention, but it's not the only one. Stuns will cause the mobs to wander all over the place. Usually spreading out to make AoE less efficient.

True. I still feel like the difference between AoE immobs and stuns versus KB is pretty stark. AoE immobs have pretty standard areas of effect so anything affected by them can be blown up by your standard AoE aimed in the middle of that pack. Stunned enemies wander around pretty slowly, so you'll still catch most of them and at least whatever you don't hit is out of the fight for ~20 seconds. Compare to KB which can literally launch a pack of enemies all around a room. Maybe a bit hyperbolic to say KB is the only thing that demands player attention, but it definitely has the most team flow disruption potential if player awareness is lacking.

[Twisted Toon]

1 minute ago, DSorrow said:

True. I still feel like the difference between AoE immobs and stuns versus KB is pretty stark. AoE immobs have pretty standard areas of effect so anything affected by them can be blown up by your standard AoE aimed in the middle of that pack. Stunned enemies wander around pretty slowly, so you'll still catch most of them and at least whatever you don't hit is out of the fight for ~20 seconds. Compare to KB which can literally launch a pack of enemies all around a room. Maybe a bit hyperbolic to say KB is the only thing that demands player attention, but it definitely has the most team flow disruption potential if player awareness is lacking.

You've never seen a runner get stunned, have you? Or a Stunned Tsoo with speed boost?

To be honest, I dislike stuns more than KB. At least with KB, I can be reasonably sure where they're going. I've had stunned mobs literally run away faster than they would when not stunned.

 

Just last night, on Agent Knockback, I was keeping an entire mob locked down and unable to attack at all because I sent all of them into the corner with Repulsion Field.

Yeah, I can herd cats with Knockback.

 

[DSorrow]

28 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

You've never seen a runner get stunned, have you? Or a Stunned Tsoo with speed boost?

To be honest, I dislike stuns more than KB. At least with KB, I can be reasonably sure where they're going. I've had stunned mobs literally run away faster than they would when not stunned.

 

Just last night, on Agent Knockback, I was keeping an entire mob locked down and unable to attack at all because I sent all of them into the corner with Repulsion Field.

Yeah, I can herd cats with Knockback.

 

Believe me, I have. I'm not trying to contest your point that other forms of secondary effects can be disruptive, all I'm saying is that KB is much more likely to do so. How often do I fight speed boosted Tsoo or Warwolves compared to literally anything that can be blown away?

 

I have exactly zero issues playing with a competent KB user, but I know I'll get annoyed pretty quickly with a bad one. As for playing with KB, I find it pretty fun unless:

• it's a secondary effect on a melee character
• it's an AoE with a chance of KB meaning it'll just disperse mobs

To get back on topic, for PBs it's basically both problems. A human form PB will want to be in melee a lot of the time because Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike and Solar Flare are some of your most powerful attacks, but by default two of those push your targets away from you. Add in Gleaming Blast and the target AoE and it just gets worse. From a gameplay perspective, I don't think KB makes any sense for the PB's human / dwarf form attacks.

[archgemini24]

22 hours ago, DSorrow said:

Believe me, I have. I'm not trying to contest your point that other forms of secondary effects can be disruptive, all I'm saying is that KB is much more likely to do so. How often do I fight speed boosted Tsoo or Warwolves compared to literally anything that can be blown away?

 

I have exactly zero issues playing with a competent KB user, but I know I'll get annoyed pretty quickly with a bad one. As for playing with KB, I find it pretty fun unless:

• it's a secondary effect on a melee character
• it's an AoE with a chance of KB meaning it'll just disperse mobs

To get back on topic, for PBs it's basically both problems. A human form PB will want to be in melee a lot of the time because Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike and Solar Flare are some of your most powerful attacks, but by default two of those push your targets away from you. Add in Gleaming Blast and the target AoE and it just gets worse. From a gameplay perspective, I don't think KB makes any sense for the PB's human / dwarf form attacks.

And this is the biggest reason I would like to see an option (toggle or Gull) to turn all KB on a character to KU or KD. For PBs (and others, but PBs in particular), Knockback makes the set play against itself. Click Inner Light, run into a group and use any of the AoEs (Dawn Strike, Photon Seekers, Luminous Detonation, Solar Flare, or any Nova or Dwarf version of the same powers) and the rest of all those wonderful AoEs are immediately and substantially reduced in effectiveness due to the fact they can no longer hit the whole spawn.

 

I know fun is a subjective thing, but I cannot see how impeding one's own abilities like this can be anything other than frustrating.

Edited August 23, 2019 by archgemini24
Struck out the Dwarf section: Dwarf Smite and Flare do Knockdown

[Twisted Toon]

4 hours ago, archgemini24 said:

And this is the biggest reason I would like to see an option (toggle or Gull) to turn all KB on a character to KU or KD. For PBs (and others, but PBs in particular), Knockback makes the set play against itself. Click Inner Light, run into a group and use any of the AoEs (Dawn Strike, Photon Seekers, Luminous Detonation, Solar Flare, or any Nova or Dwarf version of the same powers) and the rest of all those wonderful AoEs are immediately and substantially reduced in effectiveness due to the fact they can no longer hit the whole spawn.

 

I know fun is a subjective thing, but I cannot see how impeding one's own abilities like this can be anything other than frustrating.

In my experience, White Dwarf Flare is Knockdown and not Knockback. Or, to put it technically, it's a <1 mag Knockback.

The Human and Nova forms are higher mag knockbacks though. And I do agree that, at least, the human form melee/ PBAoE attacks with Knockback should be <1 mag. With the possible exception of Dawn Strike, for thematic reasons. Seeing as they are counter productive for the PB.

 

Although, I've been able to beneficially reposition enemies with the KB from those (human form melee and PBAoE) powers on occasion. But, that is an instance that is not very common in most combats on a team.

 

I do not, however, think the Nova form KB powers need their KB mag reduced to <1.

 

basically, if it's ranged, keep it as is, if it's Melee, make it KD. that is about the only change I see that is reasonable and thematic.

[Solarverse]

Add a 7th slot to all KB powers...this slot is reserved for ONLY a KB to KD IO that does not give any other benefits or procs or set bonuses. It is a 7th slot reserved for KB powers only that can use this new KB to KD IO.

 

Allow this KB to KD enhancement to be removed free of charge and placed back in inventory for those teams that love KB.

 

Problem solved.

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Add a 7th slot to all KB powers...this slot is reserved for ONLY a KB to KD IO that does not give any other benefits or procs or set bonuses. It is a 7th slot reserved for KB powers only that can use this new KB to KD IO.

 

Allow this KB to KD enhancement to be removed free of charge and placed back in inventory for those teams that love KB.

 

Problem solved.

Sadly, the base game functionality doesn't support this option.

I shudder to think of how much "re-inventing the wheel" would need to be done in order to make this Feature Request™ even theoretically possible.

 

Easy to post.

Absurdly hard to implement.

[Solarverse]

49 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Sadly, the base game functionality doesn't support this option.

I shudder to think of how much "re-inventing the wheel" would need to be done in order to make this Feature Request™ even theoretically possible.

 

Easy to post.

Absurdly hard to implement.

Story of my life.  😄  Easy to request, absurdly hard to implement.

 

It was worth a shot.

[archgemini24]

14 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

In my experience, White Dwarf Flare is Knockdown and not Knockback. Or, to put it technically, it's a <1 mag Knockback.

The Human and Nova forms are higher mag knockbacks though. And I do agree that, at least, the human form melee/ PBAoE attacks with Knockback should be <1 mag. With the possible exception of Dawn Strike, for thematic reasons. Seeing as they are counter productive for the PB.

 

Although, I've been able to beneficially reposition enemies with the KB from those (human form melee and PBAoE) powers on occasion. But, that is an instance that is not very common in most combats on a team.

 

I do not, however, think the Nova form KB powers need their KB mag reduced to <1.

 

basically, if it's ranged, keep it as is, if it's Melee, make it KD. that is about the only change I see that is reasonable and thematic.

Good catch on the Dwarf Techs. Should have known that. Thank you. Edited post.

 

It would stink to have to still have to slot KB->KD enhancements in the Human and Nova Blasts (also agree that the Melees/PBAoEs should be changed inherently) if the option to turn them all was available (to save the slots), but at least it would be in parity with Energy Blast and other Novas. That is why I think it is a good idea to have a global option somewhere: other sets with lots of KB to convert would also be able to save on slots. A player could then use an enhancement or two bring their mag up or down for specific powers to their liking, rather than having to slot 5+.