A Possible "Guardian AT" Solution

[Zepp]

 @Leogunner, adding APP or PPP at level 14 would give mid-game builds a much greater degree of variability. This would be felt more by players that are not confined by what such&such AT is "supposed" to be. This opens the door to greater hybridization. Furthermore, the idea that his is an increase in power "more power in that level range" or "seeking stronger impact where none is needed" seems somewhat off the farm. First, the current APP/PPP powers are rarely more powerful than T6(p)/T4(s) abilities. and are more often than not on long cooldowns (meaning they would be situational rather than core powers.

There is nothing in this proposal that is about filling "holes in teams," rather, this is about allowing creativity {although there are relatively small subsets of circumstances wherein it may fill holes in specific builds for solo play}. Your comments seem to be along the lines of don't give women elongated alien heads because it will have a cumulative effect with other changes and people are not even considering how this will change the game. It will change how people play as exemplar or during middle levels, but it will not change the relative strength of toons for endgame nor will it affect the power level of most mid-level toons. This is taking into consideration the current game and current changes that are in the works.

I agree that a proposal such as the Operative would provide a better solution. That being said, introducing new ATs requires more work than this change, and this change would not have as many balance issues as dealing with a new AT.

[Leogunner]

14 hours ago, Zepp said:

 @Leogunner, adding APP or PPP at level 14 would give mid-game builds a much greater degree of variability. This would be felt more by players that are not confined by what such&such AT is "supposed" to be. 

I disagree.

 

If it does have some sort of reach to non-AT conformist types, it's only in the realm of instant gratification.  Because nothing for those types actually changes except getting the powers sooner.

 

14 hours ago, Zepp said:

This opens the door to greater hybridization.

I'm not a fan of greater hybridization.  I like the concept of opening up new and broader concepts, but not for the sake of hyrbidizing gameplay.  There's a difference that I could go on to explain but I'm not sure if anyone would be bothered to want to read my differentiation.

 

14 hours ago, Zepp said:

Furthermore, the idea that his is an increase in power "more power in that level range" or "seeking stronger impact where none is needed" seems somewhat off the farm. First, the current APP/PPP powers are rarely more powerful than T6(p)/T4(s) abilities. and are more often than not on long cooldowns (meaning they would be situational rather than core powers.

Just saying it's "off the farm" doesn't actually make it so.  Just because long cooldowns exists in the APP/PPP doesn't excuse the rest of the effects they have on lower level play.  That's completely foolish.  Also, you still glossed over the other points I made about taking developing or prospecting changes into the mix with regards to stuff like this suggestion.  While the AoEs in the Tankers' APP/PPP aren't affected by the beta changes, it will be a huge shift in their ability to munch mob groups down quickly as early as level 8.  

 

14 hours ago, Zepp said:

There is nothing in this proposal that is about filling "holes in teams," rather, this is about allowing creativity {although there are relatively small subsets of circumstances wherein it may fill holes in specific builds for solo play}. Your comments seem to be along the lines of don't give women elongated alien heads because it will have a cumulative effect with other changes and people are not even considering how this will change the game. It will change how people play as exemplar or during middle levels, but it will not change the relative strength of toons for endgame nor will it affect the power level of most mid-level toons. This is taking into consideration the current game and current changes that are in the works.

I honestly have no words for your preposterous example, but I will close with the most simplistic reasoning not yet argued against (because none of my other points really received a counter either way): motivation to keep playing.  Part of what keeps people playing a game or a character isn't that they get to do whatever they want within a sandbox (for some games it is).  It's that they have a goal or objective to achieve that may require effort (or gods forbid, time). There was another thread about complaining about making the game too easy and they were shouted down because excuses like "you're suggesting I waste my time that I could be spending with my precious kids or feeding the hungry" or that it's introducing needless grind.  I made the argument that it's people asking for more and more effort and structure to be removed which is the cause of this sentiment.  People tried to argue that no one is doing that...and here we are, requesting the APP/PPP be reduced to regular pools.  Next it'll be asking for multiple APP/PPPs.

 

I don't even have to argue that hard because none of you ever make good arguments to upset game balance like you envision.  You say it's easier than making a new AT.  I beg to differ.  Completely screwing over balance for every AT would likely require more effort than introducing a new AT.  Because you can limit what a new AT has access to.  Giving access to various powers and pools is easy on the outside but requires more work, bug fixing and balancing than you'd think.

[Haijinx]

14 might be a bit low.

 

But 22 might work.  

[Rathulfr]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

14 might be a bit low.

 

But 22 might work.  

I like 24, because that's usually a gap level where a specific primary or secondary power isn't available to train.

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

I like 24, because that's usually a gap level where a specific primary or secondary power isn't available to train.

If only we had a source of powers other than primary and secondary...  Oh, wait, we already do!

Not to mention it's a rare character that I have any gap on, there's almost always a primary, secondary, or pool power that I need to pick up.

[Rathulfr]

8 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

If only we had a source of powers other than primary and secondary...  Oh, wait, we already do!

Not to mention it's a rare character that I have any gap on, there's almost always a primary, secondary, or pool power that I need to pick up.

I was merely pointing out that level 24 doesn't usually have a power pick from either the primary or secondary, not that there weren't any other powers to pick.

 

[Haijinx]

24 works

 

But the patron powers shouldn't come free, should still require unlocking.

[Steampunkette]

50 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

24 works

 

But the patron powers shouldn't come free, should still require unlocking.

The Patron Powers aren't significantly more powerful than the Epic Powers, are they?

 

I've always thought that gating them was neat narratively, but flat out functionally unfair.

 

That said, I wouldn't -hate- gating them, per se... The -functional- problem is that some of the Unique Enemies in the Patron Arcs (Super Arachnoids come to mind) can't spawn at level 24. 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

The Patron Powers aren't significantly more powerful than the Epic Powers, are they?

 

I've always thought that gating them was neat narratively, but flat out functionally unfair.

 

That said, I wouldn't -hate- gating them, per se... The -functional- problem is that some of the Unique Enemies in the Patron Arcs (Super Arachnoids come to mind) can't spawn at level 24. 

Hmm.  That sounds like an annoyance.

 

 

[Zepp]

I would suggest T1 & T2 APP/PPP powers be available at 14, T3 & T4 at 24, and T5 powers at 35 (subject for discussion, of course). This would allow them to be available sooner, but mitigate some concerns about balance. Furthermore, the PPP do not need to be unlocked, but the PPP T5 does...

Does that sound reasonable?

[Replacement]

I suggest going hog wild with no restriction on the test server and using actual data to determine if it's well liked or too destructive. 

 

Then progressively up the available level until equilibrium is reached. If that point is level 35, we will know not to touch it on Live.

 

EDIT: But it realistically wouldn't go in lower than 15 (unless we also lowered the level reqs for Ouroboros) because setting up the patron arcs as a sort of "flashforward" arc would be preferable to simply handing out badges.

It would also make us not feel crummy about taking certain characters villain for a minute if we can say they're experiencing an alternate future.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Replacement

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

It would also make us not feel crummy about taking certain characters villain for a minute if we can say they're experiencing an alternate future.

My head canon for my heroes switching to red side for the patron powers is that they're "going undercover" to infiltrate Arachnos, and then take advantage of the situation to get the benefits.

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

My head canon for my heroes switching to red side for the patron powers is that they're "going undercover" to infiltrate Arachnos, and then take advantage of the situation to get the benefits.

Or just steal/"liberate" the technology/techniques from Arachnos...

[Zepp]

Other than the T5, they are not innately Arachnosian... Which is why I suggest the unlock only being necessary for the T5...

 

Alright, the mace may be a little Arachnosian...

[Megajoule]

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

Other than the T5, they are not innately Arachnosian... Which is why I suggest the unlock only being necessary for the T5...

 

Alright, the mace may be a little Arachnosian...

Yes, but switching sides, however briefly, permanently grants/flags your character with the badge(s).  Some people care about such things.

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Yes, but switching sides, however briefly, permanently grants/flags your character with the badge(s).  Some people care about such things.

Right, and my solution would allow players to stay heroes and take 4/5 of the PPP.

[Replacement]

@Zepp Despite no knowledge of the code, I would mostly be concerned that would be harder to program.  But yeah, I'd be ok with it (though on a lot of characters, say a natural type going Mu, the implication is nice that "patron" actually means something).

 

As for mace: fiction is full of character (typically kids) whose whole schtick is stolen bad guy McGuffintech!

[Pbuckley818]

I don't feel this stop gap is necessary, as you can already build a Melee Fender right now, you are fairly limited on options, and the built wan't be the most optimal thing ever, but it does the job better than your purposed suggestion would. Though the change would make these builds better for leveling/exemplar and easier to build, I don't think it's worth the major change it would cause to the games overall design. 

[Seed22]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/ew3js8/any_publicly_available_server_with_the_primalist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf.

 

here’s your melee support. Already exist in game file wise and can exist here with further testing. No “Guardian” needed

Edited January 30, 2020 by Seed22

[Pbuckley818]

58 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/ew3js8/any_publicly_available_server_with_the_primalist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf.

 

here’s your melee support. Already exist in game file wise and can exist here with further testing. No “Guardian” needed

I mean if Homecomeing implaments Primalist I will be the Happyist of campers. But I don't think it would entirely invalidate desires for a Melee Support AT, as Elite Archetypes don't come with power customization. Though at that point it would feel a bit like choosing beggars.

 

At least their would be a Melee Support in game, one with a theme I quite enjoy. So I really do hope to see it in Homecoming. Does anyone know where we can go to throw our support behind this request? Though I guess that's premature until more information about the Mod(?) is known.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Pbuckley818

[DR_Mechano]

On 11/27/2019 at 1:02 AM, Zepp said:

It would affect the slotting for level 47/49 powers, which are often PPP APP powers, would be affected for level 50 builds, (possibly significantly so). In addition, exemplar performance would be affected to a similar degree as leveling.

This would increase variability, and allow more creativity among players. It would be a powerful boon to some sets that have large holes. One example is Illusion Control, which has very little damage prior to PA. But most people would see little difference in power level (if this started at level 14).

Again, I think many people are overstating the impact this change would have. If it were implemented many builds would basically be the same with minor differences in power order that improve the leveling and exemplarring experience with little change to the endgame. You may see a lot more people summoning Arachnos pets at earlier levels, but those powers are on such long recharges, that pre-50 they tend to be less reliable general powers and more panic buttonny type powers...

They're really usually not though, 47 maybe but 49 is 90% of the time something a serious build will use only base or 1 extra slot in. Combat Jumping, Hasten, Hover and Vengeance are all popular picks for the level 49 power because their slot mules for LotG +7.5% recharge or in the case of hasten, only need 1 extra slot with 2 50+5 IOs in it. If anyone is doing some serious slotting they'll usually save those slots which are much needed elsewhere.

Edited January 30, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, DR_Mechano said:

They're really usually not though, 47 maybe but 49 is 90% of the time something a serious build will use only base or 1 extra slot in. Combat Jumping, Hasten, Hover and Vengeance are all popular picks for the level 49 power because their slot mules for LotG +7.5% recharge or in the case of hasten, only need 1 extra slot with 2 50+5 IOs in it. If anyone is doing some serious slotting they'll usually save those slots which are much needed elsewhere.

The lateness of Epics mean that if you take a significant number of EPP powers you have extremely limiting slotting choices for lvl 47 49 powers. Furthermore, taking the T9 secondary power limits EPP power choices even more.

[DR_Mechano]

5 minutes ago, Zepp said:

The lateness of Epics mean that if you take a significant number of EPP powers you have extremely limiting slotting choices for lvl 47 49 powers. Furthermore, taking the T9 secondary power limits EPP power choices even more.

Yes but VERY few Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers or Tankers will bother with the tier 9 Secondary power, also some sets of blasters won't take the tier 9 secondary power (devices for example skips it's last two secondary powers a lot of the time), in fact there's quite a few ATs who will skip the tier 9 or have other very skippable powers. I'm just saying the whole 'oh you can't slot them properly' isn't a problem if you build right, you're probably going to take a one slot wonder (Combat Jumping, Hover, Vengeance/any of the leadership toggles etc.) as your 49 power which means your 47 can be fully slotted.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Rather than fully open up the epic pools early, I would prefer to see a variety of new pool power sets created to fill the gaps in what we are missing. A melee weapon power using the one handed attacks of broadsword/mace/axe etc. One 4-6 second recharge attack, one 8-10 second recharge attack, a shatter size cone, a PBAE and maybe a personal shield similar to tough.

 

Maybe an elemental melee attack that can take different skins for frozen fists, scorch, havoc punch, etc. A minutions powerset with a single shot pistol, double tap, hand grenade, empty clip and passive kevlar armor as the T3. And finally an energy/elemental ranged attack. 

 

One of the reasons the fighting pool attacks are so bad is they have needlessly low recharge times if you actually slot them. No one needs Boxing to have a recharge faster than it animates. If the recharge was upped they would close the gap between picking an attack like that for flavor vs what you already get from your primary/secondary. 

[Zepp]

A couple of things. First, I never said that it would have widespread implications, in fact I was saying that because the only effect would be a minor effect on a limited number of builds that it wouldn't cause significant power creep (it is currently impossible to get the Secondary T₈, T₉, and all five EPP powers). Second, I think that allowing the EPP early would be an easier move than formulating new power pools. It would be AT targeted, thus easier to balance. And the powers are already available and designed.