A Possible "Guardian AT" Solution

[Steampunkette]

Remove the level bounding limits on APPs and PPPs. Grant every character at level 1 the 4 PPP badges.

 

That way if someone wants to make a "Paladin" character with Melee/Support they can just take a Tanker, Scrapper, or Brute and give them an EPP at level 4 to select the buff/debuff/control powers out of that power pool as well as the standard power pools, like Force of Will or Sorcery's buffs/debuffs.

 

While it might change the balance slightly at lower levels (For example Blasters having early access to 1 or 2 defensive toggles outside of Tough/Weave) those same lower level characters will be using fewer attacks, and will still be fairly slot-starved until near to the current APP/PPP levels.

 

It isn't a perfect solution, by far, as most APP/PPP for Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes have only 1 support power and some ranged attacks or controls. But it could be a nice interim benefit. And one that increases low to mid-game build variety.

[Doc_Scorpion]

9 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

It isn't a perfect solution

I'm trying to figure the problem it's trying to solve...  Then we can figure out whether it's a fitting solution.

[Razor Cure]

Giving melees access to PhyPer/Sup Con at such an early level would be totally awesome for sets without end recovery powers, and just about everyone else too. Too good in fact.

[Lost Ninja]

11 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I'm trying to figure the problem it's trying to solve...  Then we can figure out whether it's a fitting solution.

I was going to say much the same. But I'm trying to be less negative.... 😄

 

I am aware that a Guardian AT has been shown on some of the other servers but was under the impression that it was poorly executed by the person who added it. (That might be some drama between HC and the other servers IDK.) So I'm not even certain what the Guardian AT the OP wants to fix is.

 

Is the Guardian AT the OP is talking about an actual existing HC AT, or are we talking about a playstyle (melee defender/corruptor/etc) or is the idea connected to the thread about the "Paladin AT"?

 

[Leogunner]

Why do people always suggested adding more and more options at the very beginning when you're just getting some of the basic abilities to fill out your powers and/or picking travel power pools and such?

 

My guess?  So they can skip some of those "weak" skills in the level 1-10 range.  

 

That being said, I don't think it solves much and am indifferent to such a suggestion beyond the effort to circumvent as many roadblocks to obtain optimal build.

[Steampunkette]

There's a lot of AT suggestions that are mostly "Give me X primary and Y secondary powerset!"

 

I know. I've made a few.

 

This could be a stopgap or stepping stone until such an at can be built and tested, was the thought.

[Replacement]

On 11/23/2019 at 10:32 PM, Doc_Scorpion said:

I'm trying to figure the problem it's trying to solve...  Then we can figure out whether it's a fitting solution.

This is an easy alternative to creating new ATs to fill a niche build (such as a guardian type).

On 11/24/2019 at 10:06 AM, Leogunner said:

Why do people always suggested adding more and more options at the very beginning when you're just getting some of the basic abilities to fill out your powers and/or picking travel power pools and such?

 

My guess?  So they can skip some of those "weak" skills in the level 1-10 range.  

 

That being said, I don't think it solves much and am indifferent to such a suggestion beyond the effort to circumvent as many roadblocks to obtain optimal build.

Concept, Leo.  How is your first thought an assumption there's an ulterior "power grab" motive?

(I'm saddened folks always expect the worst of each other, but just so we're clear: I still value your opinion and I'm not trying to beef with you)

 

You want to talk about adding too many options right out the gate?  How about 12+ ATs right in the character creator?  If you had amnesia and rediscovered CoH, would you understand the difference between Defender and Guardian?

 

@Steampunkette I don't have a better suggestion, but I think this thread title is misleading.  Folks seem to be reading this expecting Rebirth's Guardian, and it's just a strong enough grab that they aren't understanding what you're trying to propose.  Maybe something like "A possible alternative to hybrid ATs".

 

Also, I would consider opening it up at level 14.  This gives a choice between the "advanced" pool powers and starting an epic.

 

This is why I wish we had Leagues.  I would love to play this on a dedicated HC server for about 2 months, with the option to always go play a more classic version of the game.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Replacement

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

How is your first thought an assumption there's an ulterior "power grab" motive?

Let's see...  This is a proposal that will make a significant amount of power available to AT's that don't usually get that level of power.  This will also make significant power available at a very low level.

How the heck else is it supposed to be interpreted?  Even if the intent isn't ulterior the effect of the change is still there.
 

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

(I'm saddened folks always expect the worst of each other, but just so we're clear: I still value your opinion and I'm not trying to beef with you)

I'm a lot saddened that people don't actually take a few moments to actually think through the full range of effects that such a wrenching change will have on the game.

[Lines]

I’m also unclear on how exactly this change helps. But I think that’s more because I’ve not been aware of there being a problem.

 

But moreover, I’m in the camp of needing to earn things in the game. I’d hate to have free patron badges, let alone free access to top range powers.

 

If this is a needed change, for whatever the reason, could a better move be to lower the level range of patron arcs (though I foresee issues with villain groups) and have mirror blueside arcs to get the same badges?

 

I think that last thing would be nice to have regardless, but I think that’s irrelevant to this subject.

[Galaxy Brain]

Dont epic powers have lower scales and longer recharges than comparable powers? Players already get these powers at lvl 35 as options, what would be so broken about getting the ability to grab them sooner?

 

The intent behind the idea is that epic pools often give ATs a few tools outside their usual MO. Many AT suggestions are sort of in the same boat where it is "melee character that can also support" or the like, so why not allow the use of what we already have?

Edited November 25, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Let's see...  This is a proposal that will make a significant amount of power available to AT's that don't usually get that level of power.  This will also make significant power available at a very low level.

How the heck else is it supposed to be interpreted?  Even if the intent isn't ulterior the effect of the change is still there.
 

I'm a lot saddened that people don't actually take a few moments to actually think through the full range of effects that such a wrenching change will have on the game.

Position 1:

"This will drastically increase power scales, and create even more optimized builds."

 

Leading with this would have been acceptable and I would agree (though I'd say it's also an acceptable risk -- see GalaxyBrain's post above).

 

Position 2:

"This is obviously just a ploy by the OP to make even more ridiculously powerful characters."

 

Jumping straight to #2 is also called "putting words in someone else' mouth" and helps no one.  And you not seeing the difference and just assuming I'm an idiot doesn't help either.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Replacement

[Doc_Scorpion]

26 minutes ago, Replacement said:

"This is obviously just a ploy by the OP to make even more ridiculously powerful characters."

 

Jumping straight to #2 is also called "putting words in someone else' mouth" and helps no one.  And you not seeing the difference and just assuming I'm an idiot doesn't help either.

Given the OP's history of such proposals, not it's not "putting words in someone else' mouth".  It's a reasonable presumption that they're back with more of the same - especially since they failed to identify an actual problem this solution is meant to fix.  As far as the second, more of the same.  I judge based on what people post.
 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Dont epic powers have lower scales and longer recharges than comparable powers? Players already get these powers at lvl 35 as options, what would be so broken about getting the ability to grab them sooner?

In many cases, there are no comparable powers.  Controllers & defenders don't generally have armor or melee attacks in their native sets.  Scrappers don't generally have ranged attacks.  Etc... etc...  And that's kinda the point of the proposal - to give characters early access to powers they normally wouldn't until much later in the game.  At least on my Earth/Rad 'troller, Earth Mastery gives me access to attacks more damaging than every other power I have - combined.)  A couple of Recharge SO's takes care of the problem of long recharge.  Not enough to make a smooth attack chain from, granted, but enough to significantly alter how the toon plays.

Basically, the problem is that this proposal (potentially) gives FF/PI level powers to AP level toons.  That's game breaking.  Shifting the level upward to the teens just reduces the number of pieces the game is broken into.

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Given the OP's history of such proposals, not it's not "putting words in someone else' mouth".  It's a reasonable presumption that they're back with more of the same - especially since they failed to identify an actual problem this solution is meant to fix.  As far as the second, more of the same.  I judge based on what people post.

• Continues to act like the Consequence of changes are also the Intent, instead of a detail to be respectfully pointed out
• Still happily and artfully tears down others within the confines of forum rules
• Thinks Steampunkette of all people is a power gamer
• Carries grudges across threads

You must play a lot of redside.

 

I'll try to help with IDing the problem though:

7 hours ago, Lines said:

I’m also unclear on how exactly this change helps. But I think that’s more because I’ve not been aware of there being a problem.

 

But moreover, I’m in the camp of needing to earn things in the game. I’d hate to have free patron badges, let alone free access to top range powers.

 

If this is a needed change, for whatever the reason, could a better move be to lower the level range of patron arcs (though I foresee issues with villain groups) and have mirror blueside arcs to get the same badges?

 

I think that last thing would be nice to have regardless, but I think that’s irrelevant to this subject.

So the assumed language of the OP (unless I'm way off the mark) is "we keep seeing people who want ATs like Guardian, which famously blurs the lines between existing ATs."  It's an AT with Ranged, Melee, Armor, and Support powers.  Yuck.  Before Rebirth revealed their Guardian, we also occasionally saw the term pop up to describe a variety of hybrid melee characters.

 

ATs are a hell of a lot of work, but we already have Epic Pools which are typically designed to let you break out of the mold.  No one likes to make "concept characters" that need 35-41 levels to realize, though.

 

So the idea is simply "if we let folks have early epics, they could flesh out some hybrid ideas much sooner."  

 

As for me: I like the idea, but not at level 4.  I'd start by lowering it to 24 (a "dead" power level) and see how it plays, see if it needs to go down further.  But even then,it would obviously go to Beta first and let folks see how bad it can be powergamed.

[Zepp]

This is an interesting idea from @Steampunkette, and a good job of clarification by @Replacement. I tend to pull toward 14 rather than 24 as a start point. The one major consequence of this would be that EPP & PPP could take more slots as the last two powers are constricted in terms of available slots. However, I do not see that as causing much if any power creep.

I think that the Operative would be a better solution. It would be more controlled, (how would this proposal effect Controllers? Masterminds? Sentinels?) provide a better experience, and produce a greater range of choices. That being said, it would also require more work.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

You must play a lot of redside.

I don't play redside at all.  (Not the only thing you got wrong (in fact you got pretty much nothing right) and it's laughable you accuse me of tearing people down since you're the one that keeps putting that ball in play.)
 

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

I'll try to help with IDing the problem though:

I see I have to repeat my first comment to you....  Once again, you fail to examine (or even acknowledge the existence of) the effects of this change.  (And it doesn't take going to Beta to be able to predict the min-maxers will have a field day.)

That being said I don't see "I can't build this oddly specific build" as being a problem.  And certainly not a problem that rates breaking the foundation of the game and considerably altering how all AT's would play.  It'll take about thirty second from going Live to becoming virtually required (much as IO's are).

[Croax]

I would love to play a mace swinging thermal. Or a Katana with Time Manipulation. Unfortunately this Suggestion will not fix my Problem 😭

[Galaxy Brain]

Really though, just throwing this out there: what exactly "breaks" if certain powers are available at say, lvl 14/24 instead of 35?

[Leogunner]

17 hours ago, Replacement said:

Position 1:

"This will drastically increase power scales, and create even more optimized builds."

 

Leading with this would have been acceptable and I would agree (though I'd say it's also an acceptable risk -- see GalaxyBrain's post above).

 

Position 2:

"This is obviously just a ploy by the OP to make even more ridiculously powerful characters."

 

Jumping straight to #2 is also called "putting words in someone else' mouth" and helps no one.  And you not seeing the difference and just assuming I'm an idiot doesn't help either.

My position doesn't line up with those. You could say it somewhat falls into 1 but none of the other statements I really care about. It's not about optimized builds, it's about power progression and how leveling from 1 to 32 feels because of your limited power and slot options. 

[Rathulfr]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Really though, just throwing this out there: what exactly "breaks" if certain powers are available at say, lvl 14/24 instead of 35?

The backs of my enemies. 😁

Edited November 26, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Shazbotacus]

Epic pool powers are usually meh anyways, especially in Sent’s case. I don’t see any harm in making them available sooner. And, as said earlier, this could be good for concepts.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Shazbotacus

[Rathulfr]

Sign me up, so I can train Scorpion Shield at 14/24 on all my squishies!

 

[Haijinx]

This is preferable to the myriad of new AT suggestions that we see. 

 

That said, its not really necessary.

 

It wouldn't change level 50 performance at all.  

 

It would change leveling up performance a fair amount.  

 

It would drastically change exemplar performance.

 

 

[Zepp]

It would affect the slotting for level 47/49 powers, which are often PPP APP powers, would be affected for level 50 builds, (possibly significantly so). In addition, exemplar performance would be affected to a similar degree as leveling.

This would increase variability, and allow more creativity among players. It would be a powerful boon to some sets that have large holes. One example is Illusion Control, which has very little damage prior to PA. But most people would see little difference in power level (if this started at level 14).

Again, I think many people are overstating the impact this change would have. If it were implemented many builds would basically be the same with minor differences in power order that improve the leveling and exemplarring experience with little change to the endgame. You may see a lot more people summoning Arachnos pets at earlier levels, but those powers are on such long recharges, that pre-50 they tend to be less reliable general powers and more panic buttonny type powers...

[dangeraaron10]

I'm that guy that tends to love Epic Power Pools in most cases (though some clearly more than others).  Having Epic Power Pools be available much sooner would help me realize a lot of character concepts much earlier.  Does my Melee character need those Laser Eye Beams?  Probably not, but I like having them around.  For fun and flavor.  Same with a Dominator concept that's a Final Fantasy Black Mage that uses Fire, Ice, and Thunder (Elec Control/Fire Assault/Ice Mastery).  It'd be nice to realize the Tri-Element concept earlier in the leveling experience.  

 

I like the idea.  

[Leogunner]

20 hours ago, Zepp said:

It would affect the slotting for level 47/49 powers, which are often PPP APP powers, would be affected for level 50 builds, (possibly significantly so). In addition, exemplar performance would be affected to a similar degree as leveling.

This would increase variability, and allow more creativity among players. It would be a powerful boon to some sets that have large holes. One example is Illusion Control, which has very little damage prior to PA. But most people would see little difference in power level (if this started at level 14).

Again, I think many people are overstating the impact this change would have. If it were implemented many builds would basically be the same with minor differences in power order that improve the leveling and exemplarring experience with little change to the endgame. You may see a lot more people summoning Arachnos pets at earlier levels, but those powers are on such long recharges, that pre-50 they tend to be less reliable general powers and more panic buttonny type powers...

But you don't need more power in that level range.  Variability is a baseless assumption.  Do we somehow lack variability?  If you believe so, I challenge you to prove it.

 

If I'm overstating the impact, I think you're seeking stronger impact where none is needed.  How often do you play Kings Row or Talos teams?  It is RARE you need  to supplement holes in teams or sets and if you do, changing the difficulty setting is often the key.

 

It's always a challenge to speak on individual changes because no one will take into consideration other prospecting changes or current changes in the works.  Things like this have cumulative effects and if it doesn't actually solve an issue in the game, you're going to need more reason than "everything ends up the same in the end".

 

Besides, the "problem" trying to be solved here is people's desires for a melee support AT.  I don't think presenting a half-assed option that doesn't play differently from a regular melee AT solves such desires.