Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for December 6, 2019

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, AlienMafia said:

Agreed. Bruising was 1 thing that set it apart, its value was great. An increase of damage for the team or league even when damage is capped

Bruising was cool in theory but doesn't match up to what any Tankers provide in comics, and it doesn't scale vs higher level enemies.  So far in these threads we have found that it only matters when single target, vs targets whose level difference is small (e.g. +2 incarnate shift against a +1 AV).  In all other scenarios, the baked-in damage bonus should outperform (once +damage is unnerfed).  The big "up in the air" case is how much damage your (heavily resisted) Bruising supplies the rest of your party, vs how much more damage are they getting out of the fact that their buffs now meaningfully affect you.  

 

If your character concept relies on supporting your allies, the buffs to Leadership (if they survive...) are for you. 

 

Your new AT-level identity is better taunt, higher target caps, and larger aoes.  Being a frightful presence on the battlefield that cannot be ignored.  This is more in-line with the fiction anyway.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, AlienMafia said:

Let me say it a different way. Since CoH and CoV merged, there has been an underlying theme of "what's the point of playing a tanker when brutes can survive just about just as well and do hell of a lot more damage than tanks" and we've been hearing that since then and now HCs goal is to make the lines between Tanks and brutes even closer and less clear defining purpose for 2 different ATs. I hate these changes and a direction that is wrong in my opinion. We should Just delete the tanker AT all together and move these changes and stats to brute along with punchvoke.

There's not enough design space between two tanking AT's with essentially the exact same powersets to really differentiate them. There barely was with Tankers and Scrappers before Brutes came along. I think its most reasonable to just accept that this is a Defender/Corrupter situation and stop trying to carve something miraculous out of the sliver that separates the AT's.

[AlienMafia]

Def/corr are a lot more different between them than tank/brute.

 

Let me say this though before people think I'm against all these changes, no no no. I want to see a different change than just uping there damage. Cap damage bonus I'm fine with the change but the powers themselves along with losing bruising (which needs changing but not removed) is something I dont want to see happen. Taunt changes and AoE stuff is great

[Bossk_Hogg]

6 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

Def/corr are a lot more different between them than tank/brute.

 

Let me say this though before people think I'm against all these changes, no no no. I want to see a different change than just uping there damage. Cap damage bonus I'm fine with the change but the powers themselves along with losing bruising (which needs changing but not removed) is something I dont want to see happen. Taunt changes and AoE stuff is great

Not really.  A few % more on some abilities, tough and weave vs a small damage advantage that is even smaller solo or when procs are taken into account. It's basically meaningless in how they work on a team. 

 

The damage boost is happening. Deal with it already.

[AlienMafia]

3 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

The damage boost is happening. Deal with it already.

I will and disagree with it while I'm on my tanks. I'm giving my feedback on my thoughts on the changes and to please not to do just a damage buff and more of a overall application by attacking debuff to mobs because of the tanks presence.

[Sovera]

The guy does have a point though. If we dropped Tankers from the game and just gave their AoE punchvoke to Brutes no one would even notice except die hard Tanker fans and new players who come from holy trinity games who'd gravitate to them by reflex (only to later learn they are gimped Brutes).

 

The difference from Scrapper, Stalker, and Brute is already paper thin, (and even now it's not about making the AT different from the other three but just upping numbers so it is *more* similar to them) but at least the Brute can say it takes the role of tank by dint of 90% resists once all buffed to the gills.

 

Of course this being a community there would be a tremendous outcry if such a thing were to be done.

 

 

 

The only way to make Tankers more valid is giving them Tankers only sets. Want to play a holy shotgun set? It's only available to Tankers. Want to play a Throw Cars set where every move is picking up a car and throwing it at the enemy? Gotta roll a Tanker.

[Wavicle]

The game is meant to let you reproduce the different flavors of hero.  One of those is Super tough, even at lower levels.  Tankers will always have a place in the game.  These changes are good though.

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Want to play a Throw Cars set where every move is picking up a car and throwing it at the enemy?

I want Car Melee, where you swing the car around. You get more damage out of it that way than by throwing it, where it starts losing momentum as soon as you let go.

[AlienMafia]

I do think we need an increase to agro cap for tank only. Say the taunt power taunts 5 target but those 5 targets can go above the 16 already taunts by other means. If this can become the mechanic that makes tank unique then I'll shut up about the damage thing 🙂 (Not no cap but higher cap)

[Wavicle]

Just now, AlienMafia said:

I do think we need an increase to agro cap for tank only. Say the taunt power taunts 5 target but those 5 targets can go above the 16 already taunts by other means. If this can become the mechanic that makes tank unique then I'll shut up about the damage thing 🙂 (Not no cap but higher cap)

It does seem like a slight increase to the aggro cap for Tankers only (if such a thing is possible) would be a really significant buff.

[AlienMafia]

14 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

It does seem like a slight increase to the aggro cap for Tankers only (if such a thing is possible) would be a really significant buff.

If that is there defining role ie scrapper crit, stalker assassin, brute's fury, corr scourge, etc. Then I'd be completely down for this update

[Vanden]

Increasing the aggro limit for Tankers is just gonna make having multiple Tankers on the team even more redundant than it already is.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Vanden

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, sacredlunatic said:

It does seem like a slight increase to the aggro cap for Tankers only (if such a thing is possible) would be a really significant buff.

Would it though? When was the last time we had someone at agro cap? I level new alts a LOT. I reach 50 and barely get my Musculature to T3 and I'm probably making a new character already to test something new. And I do them the 'hard' way which is TFs all the way to 50. I may step into a farm map to reach 35 (since one DFB and one TF of each, no repeats, invariably levels me at level 33) so that I can finish Numina and get access to ITF and LGTF.

 

So when I'm speaking I'm not doing so from a spreadsheet but from hard experience, and my experience is that tanks, of any sort, are currently not adding a thing to the game nor do their agro caps have a bearing in the real game.

 

 

 

We are not in WoW. Fights don't last minutes against tough hard hitting elites that kill a non tank in three or four hits. For those who never touched WoW pretty much any normal mob in a dungeon is our equivalent of an EB. This is not counting the bosses who are then AVs. Only a tank survives an encounter against a normal dungeon spawn and most times would die hard without a healer backing them up.

 

THERE we need tanks. There it impossible to play the game without a healer. An off-tank is acceptable if the healer is well geared and the dungeon is run at normal or medium difficulty, but even then they can't faff around without agro tools because any normal mob citizen will three shot non tanks if they wander off.

 

 

 

In CoH this isn't the case. My constant leveling is usually always at +1. +2 tops. No one ever willingly goes +3 while leveling and +4 is unheard of. Enemies melt in seconds even in these low level TFs. Boom, a rain of AoEs, bosses survive, lieutenants are at half HP for a few seconds more. There is no danger, no need for a tank and nothing for a tank to agro extra anyway.

 

Then we reach 32 and any AT with a nuke is doing the same but instantly which means the following AoE volley finished everything.

 

Then we reach 50 and the difficulty is finally upped to +4 with fresh 50s carried until they get their T3 to everything becomes +3. At this point it would take cherry picking a fresh 50 team to face failure. The closest might be the ambush of kheldians at the top of the hill in the ITF. That's the party killer since they debuff hard and are all bosses.

 

 

 

In fact, this ends being the way to make tanks and TANKING relevant. Eliminate all minions in TFs. All enemies are now bosses. Perhaps reduce the spawn size by 1/4th. Suddenly getting hit hurts and it matters to have someone taking the brunt of it.

 

This would do nothing at 50 when everyone is IOed to the gills but even then I'd welcome this additional difficulty slider added in. I think it would enliven the game by a LOT.

[AlienMafia]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Increasing the aggro limit for Tankers is just gonna make having multiple Tankers on the team even more redundant than it already is.

How so? 2 tankers gather up 32 targets right now and the team blows them up. Having 2 tanks could hoard up mobs which is a strategy to speed up runs. Main tank + Pull tank. Many tanks nowadays dont really need to worry about dieing and the slight boost to agro cap will make tanking more satisfying and challenging because right now, a lot of the content is easy to tank. Having extra targets beating on you brings a new challenging and excitement to tankers along bringing a new dynamic to wanting to bring a tanker on a TF.

[AlienMafia]

I hit agro cap constantly and I level my toons identical to you. I'm always gathering up next few mobs while my team finishes up last group. I was agro capping myself on my sentinel on saturday

Edited January 7, 2020 by AlienMafia

[Wavicle]

14 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Eliminate all minions in TFs. All enemies are now bosses. Perhaps reduce the spawn size by 1/4th. Suddenly getting hit hurts and it matters to have someone taking the brunt of it.

 

This would do nothing at 50 when everyone is IOed to the gills but even then I'd welcome this additional difficulty slider added in. I think it would enliven the game by a LOT.

I agree that sounds fun, and if it was possible to add that as an option to check when you started a task force I would be in favor of it. Only as an option though.

EDIT: An "Incarnate Mode" button would also be fun.  Make all the mobs hit harder and have higher hit points and tohit.  Maybe some other bonuses.

I must admit to being unfamiliar with the existing handicap buttons.

Edited January 7, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

How so? 2 tankers gather up 32 targets right now and the team blows them up. Having 2 tanks could hoard up mobs which is a strategy to speed up runs. Main tank + Pull tank. Many tanks nowadays dont really need to worry about dieing and the slight boost to agro cap will make tanking more satisfying and challenging because right now, a lot of the content is easy to tank. Having extra targets beating on you brings a new challenging and excitement to tankers along bringing a new dynamic to wanting to bring a tanker on a TF.

Nobody wants to wait for Tankers to herd any more.

[AlienMafia]

Just now, Vanden said:

Nobody wants to wait for Tankers to herd any more.

Nobody waits for me. I go far enough ahead. If your teams are waiting for you to heard then your not doing it right 🙂

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, AlienMafia said:

Nobody waits for me. I go far enough ahead. If your teams are waiting for you to heard then your not doing it right 🙂

It sounds like you abandon your teammates in the middle of fights to go looking for better fights.

[AlienMafia]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

It sounds like you abandon your teammates in the middle of fights to go looking for better fights.

Never for the struggling teams where agro cap increase is even more important and useful. If it is a fast team that can handle a few guys or a single mob then going on ahead to combine 2 mobs together.

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, AlienMafia said:

Let me say it a different way. Since CoH and CoV merged, there has been an underlying theme of "what's the point of playing a tanker when brutes can survive just about just as well and do hell of a lot more damage than tanks" and we've been hearing that since then and now HCs goal is to make the lines between Tanks and brutes even closer and less clear defining purpose for 2 different ATs. I hate these changes and a direction that is wrong in my opinion. We should Just delete the tanker AT all together and move these changes and stats to brute along with punchvoke.

There has been a lot of worry about this.

 

Very little actual testing showing Tankers encroaching into Brute territory in these proposed changes. 

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, AlienMafia said:

Never for the struggling teams where agro cap increase is even more important and useful. If it is a fast team that can handle a few guys or a single mob then going on ahead to combine 2 mobs together.

The Aggro cap is not AT based.  

 

Therefore it is not a tool available.   

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Would it though? When was the last time we had someone at agro cap? I level new alts a LOT. I reach 50 and barely get my Musculature to T3 and I'm probably making a new character already to test something new. And I do them the 'hard' way which is TFs all the way to 50. I may step into a farm map to reach 35 (since one DFB and one TF of each, no repeats, invariably levels me at level 33) so that I can finish Numina and get access to ITF and LGTF.

 

So when I'm speaking I'm not doing so from a spreadsheet but from hard experience, and my experience is that tanks, of any sort, are currently not adding a thing to the game nor do their agro caps have a bearing in the real game.

 

 

 

We are not in WoW. Fights don't last minutes against tough hard hitting elites that kill a non tank in three or four hits. For those who never touched WoW pretty much any normal mob in a dungeon is our equivalent of an EB. This is not counting the bosses who are then AVs. Only a tank survives an encounter against a normal dungeon spawn and most times would die hard without a healer backing them up.

 

THERE we need tanks. There it impossible to play the game without a healer. An off-tank is acceptable if the healer is well geared and the dungeon is run at normal or medium difficulty, but even then they can't faff around without agro tools because any normal mob citizen will three shot non tanks if they wander off.

 

 

 

In CoH this isn't the case. My constant leveling is usually always at +1. +2 tops. No one ever willingly goes +3 while leveling and +4 is unheard of. Enemies melt in seconds even in these low level TFs. Boom, a rain of AoEs, bosses survive, lieutenants are at half HP for a few seconds more. There is no danger, no need for a tank and nothing for a tank to agro extra anyway.

 

Then we reach 32 and any AT with a nuke is doing the same but instantly which means the following AoE volley finished everything.

 

Then we reach 50 and the difficulty is finally upped to +4 with fresh 50s carried until they get their T3 to everything becomes +3. At this point it would take cherry picking a fresh 50 team to face failure. The closest might be the ambush of kheldians at the top of the hill in the ITF. That's the party killer since they debuff hard and are all bosses.

 

 

 

In fact, this ends being the way to make tanks and TANKING relevant. Eliminate all minions in TFs. All enemies are now bosses. Perhaps reduce the spawn size by 1/4th. Suddenly getting hit hurts and it matters to have someone taking the brunt of it.

 

This would do nothing at 50 when everyone is IOed to the gills but even then I'd welcome this additional difficulty slider added in. I think it would enliven the game by a LOT.

TBH the last thing I really need at level 50 is someone controlling all aggro.  

 

As long as they can grab a chunk of it, that's plenty. 

[Myrmidon]

The last couple of pages have really made me wonder where some of these people were in the last two giant-size threads on this topic.🤣

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

TBH the last thing I really need at level 50 is someone controlling all aggro.  

 

As long as they can grab a chunk of it, that's plenty. 

In teams, all of you can do as you like. If I am tanking, then I will get that aggro.😉