Focused Feedback: Pets & Henchmen Updates for December 6, 2019

[Epsilon Assassin]

53 minutes ago, barrier said:

I don't know, dude. A lot of the Mastermind PVP issues are not purely mechanical and are pretty qualitative in nature (Pet AI quirks - super subtle -, responses to near optimal spike patterns, tactics to deal with prolonged spikes, etc). Limited pet mobility is something that hasn't been a problem since i13 but is now. Back then in i12, limited mobility and blaster damage basically meant that you'd never see a MM in a kickball or a mixed hero/vill team because getting nuked in the face wasn't nice. Procs and Judgement have brought us way closer to i12 - but I like where damage is right now. I just don't like where MM's are right now.

Most issues aren't really super apparent in casual zone play (ex Judgement), but they are extremely easy to spot if you play a MM in 8v8.

This is exactly the time to try to address the mobility of MM pets in 8v8's. You didn't take time to respond to my 8v8 comp notes. Playing a MM without a kin in 8v8 is impossible. For context, people love to say masterminds are overpowered. Watch M3z's stream. There are two great instances of both us reacting the same way on our MM's. I pick his kin MM on my bots/nature before I pick any blaster, and he picks me on kin (a kin has literally no use outside of a MM team and other very specific comps that are rarely ever present in a kickball) on his poison MM.

The fact you literally have to intertwine two comp picks to make the MM's work (or play a kin mm) should be a huge red flag for developers re: game balance. Find me another AT that requires the same pairing?

I'm going to take this with a grain of salt. You advocated in the past for NOT fixing the dark hold's mez duration and makes me wary of what you see as a proper direction for the game. I am asking for an iterating fix that is 100% pet-related and therefore part of the subject to this thread.

I'm pretty sure you're referring to the VORI turtle responding to TBD's all-damage team. Turtling as perfectly legit tactic against a disorganized damage team.

But if anything, you're not lending much credence to "masterminds are fine" here.

I strongly disagree. Simply making the MM pets inherit travel powers from the MM would go a long way in solving most of the issues. MM damage output is intrinsically linked to pet travel speed (This is why I say that you need to play MM's in 8v8's to really understand how the pet AI works). MM survivability is intrinsically linked to pet travel speed (very obvious if you 8v8 on a MM).

Right now the balance issue is pretty glaring: When do you pick the non-kin MM in an 8v8 comp assuming all other ATs in the comp are blind picks: the answer is literally never. That's a red flag right there.

Yeah, I'll give that to you. I don't know everything about MM play, but this issue isn't an MM play specific, super high level obvious 9001 IQ quantum-physics duo-level integral-part-of-the-galaxy issue. It's a simple issue with damage applicability that I have issues with. I don't particularly want MMs to get M3z's "25% damage increase", because it wouldn't actually solve anything.  As for super-casual-zone-play, I've played arena now for what, 6 months? It's more casual then I play zone, and to be honest, it's a lot, lot simpler.

 

Now, we've moved part of the obligatory you're-just-zone-trash part of the conversation;

 

I've never claimed MM's don't need buffs, changes or fixes. I've never claimed they are fine. In fact I claimed the exact opposite.  MMs are overpowered. They're also dysfunctional. Both of those being true does not mean that they are, by default, good. All three of these points are distinctly different issues.

 

MMs are overpowered because they bring 5k ehp to a table, a suite of effective buff/debuff options and enough damage to contribute to relevant damage spikes. MMs are dysfunctional because their pets are inherently dumb. With those two things put together, they only show real effectiveness in coordinated team pvp based around them. I don't think making MMs more survivable is a good thing, because I inherently don't think that moving towards comps comprised of unkillable ATs is a good thing. I'm not really opposed to the idea of buffing MM movespeed, so much as I was opposed to his idea of "Buffing MM damage by 25%". I was also fairly against the fact that this thread is only being viewed by people who like MMs and want them to be viable regardless of whether or not it would be balanced or good for the game. 

 

As for the turtle strat. Yeah, that involves a bit of my reluctance to see even more MMs crop up in regular play because in each of those games the result was a tie. Just entire matches of two teams sitting there staring at each other. If they engaged us, we won. If they sat in their corner with attacks queued at us, we lost. It wasn't exactly fun, and kill me for saying this, but if the projected future desired in this instance involves more ties by default, I don't think it's a good idea. 

 

As for advocating for not fixing dark hold. I doubt that, I may have expressed regrets and annoyances on the fact that it's the only thing that allows controllers to display relevance through their passive in a damaging aspect, but saying I don't want any mez fixed is fairly ignorant of my overall views of the game. You will find very few people in CoH history who have advocated harder for CC nerfs or changes then I have. I have despised the CC system in this game for a long time and would never oppose or advocate for any change that would lengthen the amount of time people are forcibly disallowed from playing the game. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[siolfir]

27 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

PvP should have it's own pass, the back and forth for this is confusing.

I would agree that the PvP discussion would be better served in its own thread since this was really a feedback thread for AI tweaks, but including "Pets & Henchmen Updates" in the title led to discussion on updating pets and henchmen. Kindof like the Tanker threads, this one got somewhat derailed by what else people want instead of "focused feedback" on the actual update provided since these threads tend to have a faster developer response.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by siolfir

[Epsilon Assassin]

4 hours ago, M3z said:

Should try pvping on a MM in zones/arena first before making comments like this.

 

Why?

Care to point out what I'm missing here?

  

4 hours ago, M3z said:

 

Apparently you do need experience especially if you're coming to these conclusions? Why is it that every single high level/competitive pvper has been saying the same thing for months about MMs in zone pvp and arena? Should I get the other players to chime in this thread? Or do you know more than the best MM players in the game? You tell me.

Probably because you didn't read my response, just read that I disagreed and jumped on the band-wagon. You can get those people to chime in, but you might be surprised at the responses from some, and to be honest, I don't really need to deal with another bout of RARE/VoRI/PvP ELITZ flaming me because I'm worthless zone trash outside their high-school level cool kids club. If you want to have a discussion based on reality, however, I'm game. 

 

  

4 hours ago, M3z said:

 

• MMs movement/survivability is limited by supremacy range/BG MEANING if you are ever threatened by a MM or its pets, just move away,there's no effective way for a MM to chase nullifying the class completely. This leads to situations where people kite or fly above and there is quite literally nothing you can do to combat this(if your pets are melee you are even more screwed). If they did more damage and were more threatening, they'd be able to fight back against these tactics rather than being completely helpless. The pets lack of movement is a HUGE weakness, and without slows MMs should be rewarded for correctly positioning themselves to set up offense. Again this is something you'd know if you played MM.

This has nothing to do with getting a damage buff. As for positioning correctly, there isn't much of it. I've watched you and others play this class and for the most part you just run around in BG mode spamming SSJ/KoB at people, then ceasing movement once you see an attack on your bar (Assuming you ever do, in the 6 months or so I've been scrimming, win or lose against the MM teams, we just ignored you because the alternative is attacking a 5k HP tank). 

 

  

4 hours ago, M3z said:

 

• PvP is dominated by proc damage, MM pets have extremely limited access to proc damage for numerous reasons. Even the few attacks that do have procs, you cannot micro your pets to do their proc'd  out attacks so therefor even when you do proc pets it's unreliable. Proc damage accounts for upwards of 60% of a total attack chains damage on other ATs  (in addition to the base damage). MM pets are still stuck in the past relying on base damage in 90% of cases competing with the proc damage. Therefore in order to compete with other ATs damage which have been supplemented by proc damage, MMs pets should have base damage increases (in pvp only).

MM pets don't contribute at all to damage. You got that right, but at the same time, you're still a nearly-full tank spec bringing to the table a slightly less potent, but still relevant, suite of buffs/debuffs and far more damage (Via the same procs you say MMs don't have access to), then a class as tanky as MM has any right having access to. 

 

  

4 hours ago, M3z said:

 

• I've dueled on MM, MMs die 1v1 to corrs/blasters/defender THROUGH bodyguard, on top of getting kited and the pets unable to do anything. This AT is just broken and unplayable in many cases.

 

I mean, you're not wrong. However, increasing the damage does little to nothing to solve any of these issues. I've dueled plenty of tanks that I kill all the time because they get kited and can't do anything. This isn't a problem with MMs, nor damage really. The issue is around how hard it is for any class related to melee or short range to apply damage in a no-TS meta. All increasing the damage does is further exaggerate the issue of tanky classes doing more damage then they should and still feeling utterly useless. 

 

  

4 hours ago, M3z said:

 

• MMs are unplayable in zones(unless you are just standing still in bg mode/barrier which if that's the case are you really actually playing? You will never kill anyone with this tactic), and unplayable in arena unless your pets are speedboosted (are other ATs literally unplayable unless speedboosted?) and even then they are not great
• Because MMs cannot slow or mez in any meaningful way, they are dysfunctional (like you said) unable to catch anyone, endlessly being kited, smart players have no problem picking apart even high level MM players
• Every other viable AT in the game right now has around 60% of their damage come from procs, MMs dont have access to damage procs IN A MEANINGFUL WAY they need damage buff to stay on par with what other ATs have access to
• If these buffs are pvp only that is fine with me, they need SOMETHING though

-I mean yes, they are. I could agree heavily with increasing MM pet speed. And yes, they are further after that still not great.

-Yep this is still true

-I have a caveat to put here. MM's have access to quite a bit of proc damage in their epics, and it is quite relevant to the pvp discussion. 5k ehp tankmage MMs also having the ability to drop 4-800 point damage for spikes is quite a thing and trying to brush it aside is.....well it's disingenuous to an extreme

-MM's definitely do. I whole-heartedly agree with the movement speed changes, my problem with it is the damage buff and thinking it will ever help MMs. The problem MM's suffer from is the same any melee class does, and simply "Increasing the damage" while neglecting to address their extreme survivability and inability to ever apply that damage is an exercise in complete futility. 

 

TLDR;

 

The issues you're having, damage wise, have nothing to do with your actual damage and should be addressed as the seperate issue that they are, rather then simply as a carte blanche to ask for a 25% damage buff that will accomplish nothing until it's broken. 

[barrier]

35 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Yeah, I'll give that to you. I don't know everything about MM play, but this issue isn't an MM play specific, super high level obvious 9001 IQ quantum-physics duo-level integral-part-of-the-galaxy issue. It's a simple issue with damage applicability that I have issues with. I don't particularly want MMs to get M3z's "25% damage increase", because it wouldn't actually solve anything.  As for super-casual-zone-play, I've played arena now for what, 6 months? It's more casual then I play zone, and to be honest, it's a lot, lot simpler.

 

Now, we've moved part of the obligatory you're-just-zone-trash part of the conversation;

 

MMs are overpowered. They're also dysfunctional. Both of those being true does not mean that they are, by default, good. All three of these points are distinctly different issues.

 

MMs are overpowered because they bring 5k ehp to a table, a suite of effective buff/debuff options and enough damage to contribute to relevant damage spikes. MMs are dysfunctional because their pets are inherently dumb. With those two things put together, they only show real effectiveness in coordinated team pvp based around them. I don't think making MMs more survivable is a good thing, because I inherently don't think that moving towards comps comprised of unkillable ATs is a good thing. I'm not really opposed to the idea of buffing MM movespeed, so much as I was opposed to his idea of "Buffing MM damage by 25%". I was also fairly against the fact that this thread is only being viewed by people who like MMs and want them to be viable regardless of whether or not it would be balanced or good for the game. 

 

As for advocating for not fixing dark hold. I doubt that, I may have expressed regrets and annoyances on the fact that it's the only thing that allows controllers to display relevance through their passive in a damaging aspect, but saying I don't want any mez fixed is fairly ignorant of my overall views of the game. You will find very few people in CoH history who have advocated harder for CC nerfs or changes then I have. I have despised the CC system in this game for a long time and would never oppose or advocate for any change that would lengthen the amount of time people are forcibly disallowed from playing the game. 

Okay man, I'll take your notes on the dark hold as correct.

 

1. You haven't addressed a single one of the comments on MM comps that both me and mez have raised. MM's are only ok with kins in the team: Discuss.

 

2. Part of why I say you need to play a MM in 8v8's is that your comment re: being less opposed to a movement speed increase than a damage increase just shows that you haven't spent much time on a MM in a typical 8v8 scenario. Having pets moving at SS level is more than a 25% damage buff given how pet AI works (probably less for things like bots and maybe even thugs, but definitely more for things like necro and ninja - but mostly to the most underutilized sets). This would be super obvious to anyone who has spent an hour playing in the arena. I'm sorry to put you on the spot here - but you're commenting on an AT you don't play. This is Burrito King-style stuff: "Look at them bad blasters over there" and making some glaring assumptions.

 

3.  MM's don't get to contribute to relevant damage spikes without heavy buffs (kin). Look at my killshot rate against your own team when we brought the MM and played with no kin vs. when we brought a kin. I think I had zero killshots on the first match and was probably active on 75% of the targets but staying far because if you're half competent, you know exactly where your pets are and how much time it will take you to get to BG mode. Meanwhile, bring a kin in and suddenly either me or my pets are in on every spike when SSJ and/or KO Blow are up (both on terribly long recharges) and I make the scoreboard. I know the scoreboard is a terrible source of information when it comes to figuring out who is doing what, but the pattern repeats itself enough to be relevant.

 

4. 5k hp? Come on man. Do your math. A mastermind with a res shield is at ~23% resists in a diminishing returns pvp map. Half of the damage dealt on a 1.2k HP (assuming a +hp build), half goes to the henchmen. So functional HP is 1.2k * 1.23 * 2 = 2.95k. That is not 5k. Compare that to a standard squishy at 1606 x 1.43 = 2.28k or a mediocre brute at 2,4k x 1.50 = 3.65k, or even a blaster at 1.85 x 1.43 = 2.65k , then add to the fact that that 2.95k is reduced to 1.48k if you dare come off BG and your numbers start looking like hyperbole. So that's even before we start factoring in the fact that being able WASD freely is the biggest survivability buff that any toon in this game has.

Edited December 13, 2019 by barrier

[Epsilon Assassin]

17 minutes ago, barrier said:

1. You haven't addressed a single one of the comments on MM comps that both me and mez have raised. MM's are only ok with kins in the team: Discuss.

Nothing to discuss because I never addressed it in the first place. I never had issues with buffing their movement speed. Initially I simply pointed out that the damage increase would accomplish nothing and that it should be discussed in another thread as the issue is symptomatic of something much larger then just MMs. 

  

17 minutes ago, barrier said:

2. Part of why I say you need to play a MM in 8v8's is that your comment re: being less opposed to a movement speed increase than a damage increase just shows that you haven't spent much time on a MM in a typical 8v8 scenario. Having pets moving at SS level is more than a 25% damage buff given how pet AI works (probably less for things like bots and maybe even thugs, but definitely more for things like necro and ninja - but mostly to the most underutilized sets). This would be super obvious to anyone who has spent an hour playing in the arena. I'm sorry to put you on the spot here - but you're commenting on an AT you don't play. This is Burrito King-style stuff: "Look at them bad blasters over there" and making some glaring assumptions.

 

 

I never had an issue with the pet speed buff. I know it would give more damage then a "25% damage buff", but the difference is, and why I disagreed, is that one will actually *accomplish something*, while the other *wouldn't*. 

 

The difference between BK and I commenting on something is that I have *actually* played MMs before. I just found them to be inherently useless and discarded them, like anyone in the competitive PvP scene would do. You can try decreasing the goal posts to "If you spent even 10 hours only on MMs playing in only the dankest of 8v8 PvP tourney scenes with the hottest gurls", and you'd get me, but you aren't making points here. You're just moving goal posts.

 

  

17 minutes ago, barrier said:

 

 

3.  MM's don't get to contribute to relevant damage spikes without heavy buffs (kin). Look at my killshot rate against your own team when we brought the MM and played with no kin vs. when we brought a kin. I think I had zero killshots on the first match and was probably active on 75% of the targets but staying far because if you're half competent, you know exactly where your pets are and how much time it will take you to get to BG mode. Meanwhile, bring a kin in and suddenly either me or my pets are in on every spike when SSJ and/or KO Blow are up (both on terribly long recharges) and I make the scoreboard. I know the scoreboard is a terrible source of information when it comes to figuring out who is doing what, but the pattern repeats itself enough to be relevant.

>Scoreboard is terrible

>Relevant because it proves my point

 

To be frank, I have never disagreed with the speed buff, and I do think it's better. I have entire issues with the damage buff and imagining that MMs need it. They don't. MMs don't need buffs at all. To be viable in competitive PvP they need systematic and fundamental problems addressed with the very core of how they work. Just like any melee-interactive class in the game does. They need changes, buffs and yes, even nerfs. 

 

  

17 minutes ago, barrier said:

 

 

4. 5k hp? Come on man. Do your math. A mastermind with a res shield is at ~23% resists in a diminishing returns pvp map. Half of the damage dealt on a 1.2k HP (assuming a +hp build) goes to the henchmen. So functional HP is 1.2k * 1.23 * 2 = 2.95k. That is not 5k. Compare that to a standard squishy at 1606 x 1.43 = 2.28k or a mediocre brute at 2,4k x 1.50 = 3.65k, or even a blaster at 1.85 x 1.43 = 2.65k , then add to the fact that that 2.95k is reduced to 1.48k if you dare come off BG and your numbers start looking like hyperbole. So that's even before we start factoring in the fact that being able WASD freely is the biggest survivability buff that any toon in this game has.

Ok. Math.

 

1.3k HP base HP

6 Pets

23% Resists.

1,300*1.23*4 

 

Total projected ehp=6394

 

Pets don't take half the damage you do. They take a percentage. Each Pet takes a portion of the damage, while the MM will take double that of any individual "minion" in range, in BG mode. To simplify this, it means that with 6 minions in range, there will be 8 "Shares" of damage being received. 2 of those shares (1/4th) will be received by the MM, while the remaining 6 shares will be divided up evenly between pets as True (IE No Damage Resist/Defense reductions) involved. The Mastermind in full BG mode will be afforded 75% damage reduction to the extent that the life of the minions are capable of supporting it. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[barrier]

I stand corrected on the BG mode notes.

You do agree with the movement buff as being a good thing, and that's good enough for now.

[M3z]

26 minutes ago, barrier said:

I stand corrected on the BG mode notes.

You do agree with the movement buff as being a good thing, and that's good enough for now.

I would take just this at this point, this would be huge. Maybe make them move at 70% of capped MS or something in pvp zones only. Or just let them inherit the MM player's movespeed.

 

edit: this would be pvp only change, also if we got pets with more movespeed, they wouldn't need any damage buff or anything.

Edited December 13, 2019 by M3z

[vegetableknife]

yaaaassss I love when pvpers come into a thread and start discussing #popcorn

[Nullbolt]

1 hour ago, vegetableknife said:

yaaaassss I love when pvpers come into a thread and start discussing #popcorn

Right? At least there are PvPers. It was never very good IMO, at least retail, and always felt broken beyond repair in some sense (even more so than other mmos). Most of us are here for PvE anyway, unfortunate that our PvE changes are slowed down by PvP. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it if the 'tacked on' PvP just went away.

[Monos King]

@M3z@barrier @Epsilon Assassin

If you lot want to continue discussing the PvP aspect of this I made a thread for it. The PvP side is, as noted by others, its own separate matter.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/13330-mastermind-qol-issues-and-improvments-pvp-specific/

Edited December 13, 2019 by monos1

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, Nullbolt said:

Right? At least there are PvPers. It was never very good IMO, at least retail, and always felt broken beyond repair in some sense (even more so than other mmos). Most of us are here for PvE anyway, unfortunate that our PvE changes are slowed down by PvP. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it if the 'tacked on' PvP just went away.

Um no, people like PvP. Please don't peddle this opinion. It won't ever happen, but it's harmful nonetheless. You don't have to pay attention to them really, but it's a fun aspect of the game when casual.

[barrier]

19 minutes ago, Nullbolt said:

Right? At least there are PvPers. It was never very good IMO, at least retail, and always felt broken beyond repair in some sense (even more so than other mmos). Most of us are here for PvE anyway, unfortunate that our PvE changes are slowed down by PvP. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it if the 'tacked on' PvP just went away.

You are toxic.

 

While full of banter in our posts, which I'm sure you aren't used to seeing, the three of us will likely still interact more than cordially within the next week. 

 

And again, wishing that a part of the game that brings joy to A LOT of people (probably a lot more in proper proportion than on live) be deleted makes you toxic.

 

A buff to pets, be it movement speed or damage is still straight on topic (so sorry mono, I'm not going to your thread).

Edited December 13, 2019 by barrier

[Nullbolt]

IMO = In MY OPINION. Doesn't make me toxic for sharing my opinion. This game was not designed for PvP, it was something tacked on years later and never felt right. 

[barrier]

Just now, Nullbolt said:

IMO = In MY OPINION. Doesn't make me toxic for sharing my opinion. This game was not designed for PvP, it was something tacked on years later and never felt right. 

Toxic. Someone get a mod here to wipe this dude's blog post.

[Nullbolt]

8 minutes ago, barrier said:

Toxic. Someone get a mod here to wipe this dude's blog post.

I'll see you in RV, try to wipe my blog post!

[Widower]

Let us drop this line of discussion. We have no plans to remove PvP, now or ever.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, GM Widower said:

Let us drop this line of discussion. We have no plans to remove PvP, now or ever.

Is there any chance that we can have some form of base raiding again? 🤞

[ScarySai]

So, any chance we'll get this awesomeness before January?

 

[dangeraaron10]

Has anyone been able to test these changes out with Mercenaries?  Does it make them more usable?  They're one of my favorite Pet powers which are, sadly, bottom of the barrel on Live.

[Wavicle]

On 12/13/2019 at 8:09 AM, M3z said:

 

• Every other viable AT in the game right now has around 60% of their damage come from procs

That by itself is a huge problem.

[esotericist]

3 hours ago, dangeraaron10 said:

Has anyone been able to test these changes out with Mercenaries?  Does it make them more usable?  They're one of my favorite Pet powers which are, sadly, bottom of the barrel on Live.

As soon as I can actually get the game to work again, that's my first stop.

[M3z]

15 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

That by itself is a huge problem.

I definitely agree with you

[DarknessEternal]

17 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

That by itself is a huge problem.

It’s also false. 

[M3z]

10 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

It’s also false. 

For min/max pvp builds it's not false.

[barrier]

18 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

It’s also false. 

You try consistently getting more than 1 pet on a target during a spike window without SB if you think procing out pets works.

 

You literally get four viable PVP attacks that can be properly proc'd out on a mastermind (with solid proc rates, I mean). They are in two patron sets. Mu and Leviathan. That's not ok.

Edited December 17, 2019 by barrier