More ethnically diverse content

[Haijinx]

20 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

If you can remember what contact this is from I'd love to see it, it doesn't ring any bells for me, and sounds interesting

One of the late ones in the 20-25 Ouro range.  You have to go and do this fight club deal against his lieutenants, then fight him. 

 

Its definitely a post Going Rogue mission since you get the option to kill him after you win.  Also one of the Lts is KM and another is staff. 

 

 

 

 

[dangeraaron10]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

I feel as a side note to this that it should be pointed out that Rhode Island, where Paragon City is located, is an extremely whitebread state. From the 2010 census, a breakdown by ethnicity for the whole state:

81.4%	White alone
5.7%	Black/African-American alone
0.6%	Amerind & Alaska native alone
2.9%	Asian alone
0.1%	Native Hawaiian & Other Pacific Islander alone
6.0%	Some other race alone
3.3%	Two or more races

If you ballpark where Paragon City is by loosely matching up the waterfront to a real map of the state, that puts it in Kent County, which is even more whitebread:

93.4%	White alone
1.4%	Black/African-American alone
0.3%	Amerind & Alaska native alone
2.0%	Asian alone
0.0%	Native Hawaiian & Other Pacific Islander alone
1.0%	Some other race alone
1.8%	Two or more races

The early immigrants to Rhode Island were mostly from Europe and Canada, largely Irish and French Canadians. In the early 20th Century, there was an influx of Italians and Portuguese immigrants. Hispanics began to immigrate around 1970, and Asians around 1980. While the Italian immigrant community has been in existence long enough to have ethnically-recognizable enclaves (although tending to accumulate in entire communities, rather than just neighborhoods), the Asian immigrants did not arrive until long after the social pressures that formed the sort of enclaves you're describing had decayed. At best, there would be areas that had a higher than normal percentage of recognizably ethnic businesses, but not neighborhoods that were ethnically homogeneous. I suspect one of the considerations that led the devs to place Paragon City in Rhode Island was to be able to sidestep ethnic neighborhoods as being a complication the art department didn't have the resources to address.

While I do appreciate the homework done on this, we have to remember that Paragon City is an alternate reality to our own.  Being an established metropolitan city for many years will likely heavily change the immigration landscape compared to the Rhode Island of our reality.

 

I'm not saying that Chinese or generic "Asian" architecture is the limit of different cultural possibilities, but I took a look at Paragon Wiki and here's a bit of information about the Tsoo, the Hong Kong born Triad, and mention of several types of Asian minorities that have been struggling against both of the aforementioned groups:

 

"The Tsoo emerged on the scene in the late 1990s as a small but unified bunch under the leadership of Tub Ci, a brutal and calculating drug lord recently released from prison. Tub Ci claimed to have found his spirituality in prison – but it was the legacy of a warlord – and he named his group after a word that he defined as “the destroyers.” Independence Port and Talos Island were under the thumb of Hong Kong-born Triads at the time, who harshly exploited other Asian minorities in the area, but this wouldn’t last for much longer.

 

Tub Ci claimed he could no longer see his people, the Hmong, suffer; and while there was some truth to his outrage over the hardships they faced beneath the Triads he was certainly not motivated by altruism. Tub Ci’s ambitions were grand, and his Tsoo were a fearsome lot, heavily inscribed with mystical tattoos that gave them super-powered abilities. His lieutenants, the cruel sorcerers, were his most trusted brothers, many of whom had spent time with Tub Ci in prison. And when their martial arts, gun and sword play, and magics were not enough, Tub Ci showed his sorcerers how to reinforce their ranks with ghostly warriors they claimed as their literal ancestors. They broke the backs of the ruling Triads and slipped into power.

 

The Tsoo wanted nothing less than to control all of the drug trade and protection rackets in Paragon City. However, the Rikti War forced them into the simple task of survival for a time. They refused to aid the heroes, and they certainly would never help another gang, but they did do what they could for the people under their “protection.”

 

When the war finally ended, Tub Ci consolidated his forces in the regions of Talos Island, Independence Port, and Steel Canyon. They basically own the drug business, gambling dens, and protection racket in those areas. They celebrate their domination regularly, with loud, raucous parties held throughout the month. These parties are usually held in abandoned warehouses or empty lots in bad neighborhoods – deep within Tsoo territory. Sometimes the parties devolve into blood sports, where both men and women participate in no-holds-barred scraps, earning prestige and glory among the streets. Offering a heady mix of drugs, flesh, and violence, the Tsoo gatherings act as magnets for those drawn to their dark lifestyle, and Tub Ci craftily uses them as a constant “recruitment drive” to bolster his ranks."

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Tsoo

 

So we do know from the lore that various Asian groups, primarily Chinese, have had a significant presence in Paragon City since prior to the 1990's.  I feel like there's precedent.

 

Edit:  In this case, I think Independence Port and/or Talos Island would be a good place for such a revamped area.

Edited January 4, 2020 by dangeraaron10

[GM Mathison]

Weighing in on this there is certainly the opportunity when adding new content to look at groups and topics that haven't been covered in the past. Considering the events of Dark Astoria and now the Syndicate moving to Primal Earth there is a good story opportunity to focus on the Tsoo and the communities of citizens around them. In these situations I always look at opportunities of what haven't we seen. At the moment Paragon has two Tub Chis, Two Yins, and Two Penelope Yins. Also characters like Mirror Spirit and Foreshadow that haven't really been utilized as much.

[VileTerror]

I can't recall how canon it was, but I distinctly recall someone (a Dev, I believe) stating that Paragon City was meant to be Primal Earth's "New York City."  What are the ethnic and cultural diversity stats for that town in real life?  I think those should be the numbers we aim to simulate in Paragon City.

[Alchemystic]

6 hours ago, GM Mathison said:

Weighing in on this there is certainly the opportunity when adding new content to look at groups and topics that haven't been covered in the past. Considering the events of Dark Astoria and now the Syndicate moving to Primal Earth there is a good story opportunity to focus on the Tsoo and the communities of citizens around them. In these situations I always look at opportunities of what haven't we seen. At the moment Paragon has two Tub Chis, Two Yins, and Two Penelope Yins. Also characters like Mirror Spirit and Foreshadow that haven't really been utilized as much.

I suppose that would mean potential for an official W.IS.D.O.M headquarters? It would be nice to see some sort of conflict between them and the Tsoo played out, even if it's just a story told by scenery and environment.

 

Though I think there is certainly more potential for story arcs if at all possible that pit the two against each other, but I suspect that may be quite an undertaking too.

[Lines]

25 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I suppose that would mean potential for an official W.IS.D.O.M headquarters? It would be nice to see some sort of conflict between them and the Tsoo played out, even if it's just a story told by scenery and environment.

 

Though I think there is certainly more potential for story arcs if at all possible that pit the two against each other, but I suspect that may be quite an undertaking too.

Honestly, when you look at such a huge area like Boomtown, it's ideas like this that make the job a whole lot easier rather than harder. If you know that you need three or four blocks to be able to tell this story, the empty space begins to take form. If the zone needs to support story arcs, even better.

 

Trying to design in a vacuum - even just restoring Baumton verbatim based on how the buildings would look - would be so much more harder and more tedious to do without these environmental stories to guide us. The more of these stories we can have, the easier it will be to know what to do with the space.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

im not against this but just to clarify:

 you are asking for separate but equal segregated areas for different ethnicity's?

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, dangeraaron10 said:

So we do know from the lore that various Asian groups, primarily Chinese, have had a significant presence in Paragon City since prior to the 1990's.  I feel like there's precedent.

 

Edit:  In this case, I think Independence Port and/or Talos Island would be a good place for such a revamped area.

We have descriptions of the various illicit activities of the Tsoo, and the Triads before them, but it still lacks the 'civilian' population required to make up the sort of enclave you want to see. That the Tsoo, and the Triads before them, control the docks doesn't mean that those areas are predominantly Asian, and it's the 'support' activities -- stores, restaurants, temples, homes, etc. -- that are necessary to make up the visible aspects of a Chinatown. Consider also the upheaval from the Rikti invasion, with the city being "divided into a patchwork of human and alien controlled neighborhoods", with the static barriers put up to curb the fighting at the boundaries evolving into the current War Walls. We don't know what is in the areas of the original Paragon City that now fall outside the current zones; it's entirely possible that these ethnic enclaves were deemed unprotectable and what population that could (or would) be moved was brought within the War Walls and set up in whatever space was available -- in the reconstruction after the Rikti War, the city wasn't going to tear down perfectly good buildings just so the Asian community could build a Chinatown.

 

For all its activity, Paragon City is a lot less than it was prior to the Rikti War, and what's left isn't likely to mirror what it was, and the various activities the Tsoo conduct "in abandoned warehouses or empty lots in bad neighborhoods" are hardly conducive to supporting a recognizable enclave; it sounds more like they're having to fall back on unused spaces because they don't have a definable area that's recognizably Asian. I think the devs at one point mentioned there being ideas about a zone for the Paragon City airport, but that it was kicked to the side for the lack of development resources, so it's possible or likely that there are human-controlled zones that we don't see that would include a Chinatown, Little Italy, or Little Havana, simply because the devs weren't given the time or the staff to create them.

 

If the reconstruction of Baumton proceeded with wholesale demolition of badly-damaged buildings, clearing space for new construction, it would be viable to have Tub Ci, as the head of one of the major (if illicit) power groups, to demand that part of it be set aside for 'his people' and begin to develop into a Chinatown, but having to accept a more formal role in the process, the Tsoo in that area acquiring the same 'neutral' status that Crey personnel have in Brickstown, with story content built around, say, the Tsoo running up hard against Crey and the Family for control of the development around the nascent Asian enclave.

[Haijinx]

43 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

im not against this but just to clarify:

 you are asking for separate but equal segregated areas for different ethnicity's?

Think all the OP really wanted was for chunks of buildings that looked like Chinatown, Little Italy, Little Havana, Mexicantown, Etc.

 

 

[Troo]

On 1/2/2020 at 11:58 AM, ShardWarrior said:

Having more diverse costume pieces, weapons, tailored NPCs

Aren't these already present?

[ShardWarrior]

54 minutes ago, Troo said:

Aren't these already present?

I don't think it was ever suggested they were not. The thread title clearly spells it out with the use of the word "more" - as in a greater number and variety than what we have now.  Not at all difficult to understand. 

[Zepp]

The game could use greater ethnic and cultural diversity... A Chinatown or Lil Italy would work... But the models for npcs and range of available skin tones may also need to be addressed.

[AWOL]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:27 AM, boggo2300 said:

I've been to Cardiff, I'd attack it to!

are you an alien?

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, AWOL said:

are you an alien?

No, but if ordinary people want to attack Cardiff (Including both of my Welsh friends) I can't hold it against any aliens, especially if you're throwing John Barrowman into the mix

[AWOL]

The problem with these areas is they don't look anything like Modern China, Italy, India, etc.  I find them embarrassing in the real world.  They are all plastic nostalgic representations of a country that reflects dreams more than reality.  Give me Paragon City, Lahore if you must do this 🙂

[boggo2300]

23 minutes ago, AWOL said:

The problem with these areas is they don't look anything like Modern China, Italy, India, etc.  I find them embarrassing in the real world.  They are all plastic nostalgic representations of a country that reflects dreams more than reality.  Give me Paragon City, Lahore if you must do this 🙂

you are correct, mind you, City of heroes is kind of a plastic nostalgic representation itself 😄

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

you are correct, mind you, City of heroes is kind of a plastic nostalgic representation itself 😄

Look at those cars

And the brick phones

And the crazy body proportions 

 

Its basically 1991 Comic Books the MMO

 

 

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Look at those cars

And the brick phones

And the crazy body proportions 

 

Its basically 1991 Comic Books the MMO

 

 

the madness doesn't end there, Phone booth's and buildings in central cities that are NOT a Starbucks

 

[Marine X]

On 1/2/2020 at 6:50 PM, Haijinx said:

Since by far most people of "Ethnically" Chinese descent in the US live in places that look exactly the same as people from anywhere else. 

This is probably a key to making this Feasible. Faultline for instance already has Yin's Market and lots of unused space, just a thought. Being that the Family is protrayed as "Italian", some parts of Indy Port would be perfect, maybe just some renaming of neighborhoods may work. For roleplay purposes anything is possible. Founder's Falls is all but Venice already. Brickstown and Kings Row have a very central European Look to them. Croatoa is all based around Irish Lore. We already have a bit of Cultural Variety, maybe just nudge it a bit from there.

[Marine X]

On 1/2/2020 at 6:50 PM, Haijinx said:

Since by far most people of "Ethnically" Chinese descent n the US live in places that look exactly the same as people from anywhere else. 

Oh and forgot about Striga Island and how much it has an Old World ( France or Belgium ) Coastal look unlike Talos and Peregine Island which seem more like New England.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Marine X

[Saiyajinzoningen]

id like turbans in the costume creator

[ZacKing]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 10:55 PM, biostem said:

There's a mission where you go into one of the Tsoo leaders' mansion, and I recall it being rather nicely decorated;  Perhaps some of those assets could be used to redecorate a section of a zone...

Thanks I forgot about this one.

[ZacKing]

8 hours ago, AWOL said:

The problem with these areas is they don't look anything like Modern China, Italy, India, etc.  I find them embarrassing in the real world.  They are all plastic nostalgic representations of a country that reflects dreams more than reality.  Give me Paragon City, Lahore if you must do this 🙂

Yeah thankfully you don't speak for everyone.  There are literally generations of people who call these places home and aren't embarrassed by them at all.

[ZacKing]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 8:13 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

im not against this but just to clarify:

 you are asking for separate but equal segregated areas for different ethnicity's?

Good Lord where do you get that from?   Absolutely not.

[ZacKing]

12 hours ago, Troo said:

Aren't these already present?

That's a silly position to take really.  Why add any new content then?  Stuff is already present in the game...