Strengths/Weaknesses/"Best" Stalker primaries?

[Seroster01]

Threads of this type are probably overdone, but I feel the need to create it because I've played a number of different flavors of every melee-focused AT except Stalkers. Given that I've played so many other melle ATs & that I know Stalker sets are usually more different from the others than the others are from each other, I feel like my perception of the available Stalker sets probably doesn't match their actual abilities. 

 

So I figured I'd make a thread on the subject & add that the ultimate deciding factor for me is probably which sets have good AoE, & at what level their AoE fleshes out. From what I understand of Stalkers all of the primaries will have good--to-great ST DPS just due to Stalker mechanics combined with their ATOs. Thus, which sets have good AOE &bat what levels they have it will probably be the main deciding factor. 

 

Thanks for any responses!

[siolfir]

Electric Melee has all of the AoEs that the other versions get - you get a small cone (Jacob's Ladder) at 2, Chain Induction at 18, Thunder Strike at 26, and Lightning Rod at 32. Plus with Assassin's Focus, the replacement for Lightning Clap is effectively the old 1-second animation Energy Transfer (Assassin's Shock out of hide does scale 5 damage in 1 second; ET did scale 4.56 in 1 second and carried Energy Melee). If you like Electric Melee on any other AT, the best version is on a Stalker.

 

Spines has AoEs with Spine Burst (level 2), Ripper (level 26), and Throw Spines (level 32), and of those only Ripper is a small AoE. If all you care about is throwing AoEs as often is possible, either of these will get you there.

If you can tolerate the slow animations, Radiation Melee should have good AoE just due to the Contamination mechanic - you lose the AoE damage aura that sets Contamination most of the time, though, so it's going to be intermittent at best. That said, it has a 10' PBAoE at level 32 along with a (bad) cone at level 2 (lowest damage of that size cone in melee, and it's a DoT) in addition to the splash damage. Since I've only played it on a Brute I can't say how it feels, but at least Devastating Blow gets a full critical.

 

Street Justice gets a cone at 2 (Sweeping Cross) and short-range, small-radius targeted AoE at 18 (Spinning Strike), and Crushing Uppercut is downright silly from Hidden status.

 

Kinetic Melee has a 100% chance for critical from hidden status in Burst at level 18, but that's the only AoE. Most other AoEs are at 50% or less from Hide (Spine Burst is 30%, Lightning Rod doesn't critical at all but doesn't break hidden status). Claws has Shockwave at 32, Psi and Ice Melee each get a 10' PBAoE at 32, and Ice has a cone at level 2, but from several threads in this forum Ice Melee for Stalkers has a few issues.

 

The only sets that don't have at least something for AoE are Energy Melee (don't take it) and Martial Arts.

Edited December 31, 2019 by siolfir

[Yomo Kimyata]

My only lvl 50 stalker is staff/bio, and I love it.  AoE comes early with Guarded Spin at lvl 2, and it's a great power.  Eye of the Storm takes until 18, unfortunately, but once you have it, you're pretty much good to go.

[Haijinx]

The old sets trade the best AOE for assassins strike. (Except ele and spines)

 

The new sets trade a st attack.  (Except KM, but it makes up for it)

 

So those sets are definitely superior for AOE. 

[Haijinx]

For rule of cool you do have to give a nod to ninja blade though.

 

Since the main tempo slowing animation was the spinning sword, the set looks awesome.

 

Plus the assassins strike is the coolest assassins strike animation available.

 

 

[Seroster01]

What about Savage Melee? Anyone got experience with that one? There was a thread on the Scrapper forums that the Stalker version of SM was a significantly better  than the Scrapper version, but I know nothing about SM on any class so IDK what to expect there.

[siolfir]

37 minutes ago, Seroster01 said:

What about Savage Melee? Anyone got experience with that one? There was a thread on the Scrapper forums that the Stalker version of SM was a significantly better  than the Scrapper version, but I know nothing about SM on any class so IDK what to expect there.

Haven't played it, but a friend has - it's better for Stalkers because of Hemorrhage criticals being silly - as in, likely bugged - good. It's another set that kept all of the AoEs for the Stalker version as well, since it replaces Vicious Slash with Assassin's Frenzy.

[KaizenSoze]

Ice melee - two good AOEs. Frost at 2, Frozen Aura at 32.

Nice mix of damage types cold/lethal/smash.

General note, if you use cross punch you get a kinda third AOEs. But only works on dense crowds.

Ice patch is awesome for damage mitigation.

 

The set is an end hog. So, pair it was a secondary that has good end management.

[Frosticus]

6 hours ago, Seroster01 said:

What about Savage Melee? Anyone got experience with that one? There was a thread on the Scrapper forums that the Stalker version of SM was a significantly better  than the Scrapper version, but I know nothing about SM on any class so IDK what to expect there.

proc'd out savage leap,  the option of a fairly quick 15ft pbaoe and hidden hemorrage make savage arguably the best aoe set and among the best st sets. 

 

lethal kinda holds you back sometimes. 

[siolfir]

27 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

proc'd out savage leap,  the option of a fairly quick 15ft pbaoe and hidden hemorrage make savage arguably the best aoe set and among the best st sets.

Savage Leap is a 15' AoE? Nice - the power description makes it seem smaller, since it's considered "single target", so I thought it would have a smaller radius pseudopet like Spring Attack or Burst of Speed.

[Seroster01]

28 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Savage Leap is a 15' AoE? Nice - the power description makes it seem smaller, since it's considered "single target", so I thought it would have a smaller radius pseudopet like Spring Attack or Burst of Speed.

I think he's talking about Rending Flurry as the "quick one", though it does appear Leap has a 15yd radius as well...

[ScarySai]

STJ is top dog in single target DPS, has some monsterous burst, and has some pretty respectable AOE once you get used to it. Dual blades actually comes pretty close to it once you can get the best attack chain going for it. Takes a bit more recharge than STJ's does, though.

 

Pair STJ with /bio and you'll be casually two-shotting bosses. Even an AV will be feeling AS>autocrit Crushing uppercut.

 

Elec is really good if you pair it with /shield - another very respectable powerset , as well.

Edited January 1, 2020 by ScarySai

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Savage Leap is a 15' AoE? Nice - the power description makes it seem smaller, since it's considered "single target", so I thought it would have a smaller radius pseudopet like Spring Attack or Burst of Speed.

savage leap is 15' and damage application is near instant with the teleport being extremely quick too. 

 

I was actually referencing rending flurry as it is very easy to convert it into the 15' version as part of your alpha.

[cheezewezzel]

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

savage leap is 15' and damage application is near instant with the teleport being extremely quick too. 

 

I was actually referencing rending flurry as it is very easy to convert it into the 15' version as part of your alpha.

 

Savage melee is fun on a stalker, but it takes a little getting used to.  My savage melee/willpower stalker just hit level 40.  The DoT component makes savage melee seem a little weak at first because less of the damage is up front.  Built up hemo from hide is a great way to start v bosses and above.  Savage leap is a nice way to start with a mess of little people.  I generally only use rending flurry when I  have a full 5 stacks of blood frenzy which widens its AOE and increases its damage.  Based on some interesting threads here, I also picked up the moonbeam snipe from soul mastery which provides an effective ranged option when that's needed.

 

I'm not a hardcore min/max, numbers person so I can't tell that savage melee is X% better or worse than other stalker primaries.  However, I've enjoyed it with its quick and fun animations, and I'll probably level this stalker all the way to 50 (something I haven't done since live).

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, Seroster01 said:

I think he's talking about Rending Flurry as the "quick one", though it does appear Leap has a 15yd radius as well...

 

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

savage leap is 15' and damage application is near instant with the teleport being extremely quick too. 

 

I was actually referencing rending flurry as it is very easy to convert it into the 15' version as part of your alpha.

Hm. Guess I just never noticed playing with my friend, but I think they skipped Savage Leap (thinking, like I did, that it was small). Since I was playing my Fort at the time I didn't Rending Flurry's radius increase because we tended to leapfrog with each of us taking out a spawn. They did complain about the lethal damage (which I was using also, but I had psi and toxic thrown in with a little smashing), especially after seeing Psychic Wail take out anything smaller than a Boss at +3 for most enemy types when the Gaussian's kicks in to damage cap it.

[Frosticus]

Proc'd out savage leap is among the best aoe attacks in the game. It most closely compares to a sentinel nuke, but with half the recharge and a very fast cast. It is up every 15 or so seconds with a perma hasten build and procs at 89% for 3.5ppm IOs.

It also ensures you move  faster than anyone else from spawn to spawn.

 

Psychic wail is great too. It, along with aim, and follow up, are why I made a melee fort instead of nightwidow, but that is a 2.5 min power vs a 40 sec base rech power that do similar damage in game. 16 vs 10 targets, but leap moves you super fast around the battle too. 

 

Truthfully I rolled savage on a whim because someone said hidden hemo was good. It really is, I think it is only less than crushing uppercut in terms of damage (albeit a dot, but much faster cycle time). Unhidden hemo is meh, so use it accordingly. But savage leap is the absolute star of the set.

[crkohl]

Wanted to sing praises of Kinetic Melee here. Got a KM/SD I’ve been leveling, and it’s a blast. Kinetic gets a bad rep for long animations. However, the DPA for the main attacks is actually pretty great, and you can technically have your full single target attack chain by lvl 6. Some other pros:

 

- Fastest out of Hide animation for Assassin’s Strike. Seriously it’s stupid quick. 
- Fast single target attacks make for getting stacks for AS easy.

- Burst auto-critting from Hide. Only AoE that has that. And it’s way too fun.

Only cons so far? You lose an AoE for AS. However, the auto-crit Burst makes up for that for me. And I rolled Shield as my secondary for Shield Charge for that reason.

[Leogunner]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:36 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

My only lvl 50 stalker is staff/bio, and I love it.  AoE comes early with Guarded Spin at lvl 2, and it's a great power.  Eye of the Storm takes until 18, unfortunately, but once you have it, you're pretty much good to go.

It's not common to hear much about staff.  Doesn't it have more aspects that benefit it?  If I remember Staff mechanics right, on the other ATs, they have to get a power called Staff Mastery that gives them the 3 forms toggles and Form of the Body is like a stacking +dmg boost for every stack of Perfection...but for Stalkers, they get Form of the Body for free?  Is that right?  And ontop of that, Stalkers get Build Up.  The only thing you give up is the cone immobilize attack (and the other 2 Form toggles) but get Assassin's Staff instead (fair trade, imo).

Edited January 1, 2020 by Leogunner

[honoroit]

Spines is proving effective, though has longer wind up than savage.

 

A number of them have a nasty immob.

 

Toxic dots make lethal resist mobs less painful. There savage feels like cutting steel with your nails. Ineffective. 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

It's not common to hear much about staff.  Doesn't it have more aspects that benefit it?  If I remember Staff mechanics right, on the other ATs, they have to get a power called Staff Mastery that gives them the 3 forms toggles and Form of the Body is like a stacking +dmg boost for every stack of Perfection...but for Stalkers, they get Form of the Body for free?  Is that right?  And ontop of that, Stalkers get Build Up.  The only thing you give up is the cone immobilize attack (and the other 2 Form toggles) but get Assassin's Staff instead (fair trade, imo).

I'm working on a meta-guide for staff/bio (scrapper, brute, stalker) and bio/staff (tanker).  It's a super pairing and I've gotten the stalker and the scrapper to 50 and the others are darned close.

 

You basically nailed it.  Stalkers only get one form, Form of the Body, and yes, they get it for free at level 1.  The result is that you get a "slight" (I don't have the numbers available right now) damage boost for each level of perfection you build.  That's always nice.  Then your finishers either reduce enemy damage resistance or increase your resistance and add extra damage.

 

I can't really compare staff for stalkers with other primaries for stalkers since I only have the one 50, but it seems like it is a really good combination of single target and AoE damage.  I'll see if I can come up with some good comparisons later.

[Caulderone]

6 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

The result is that you get a "slight" (I don't have the numbers available right now) damage boost for each level of perfection you build.

The planner indicates 4% per stack, for whatever that  is worth.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Caulderone

[Machariel]

I've been playing a Dual Blades / Energy / Mu and a Kinetic Melee / Energy / Mu with almost identical slotting (Synthblades/Synthwaves on Excelsior) and they're both at about the same Incarnate levels. 

 

Both of them have pretty good AoE as stalkers go.  Burst is a decent attack with a very small 8' radius, which isn't great, but if the team needs AoE from a stalker then mobs are probably getting really tight and you can really leverage that 100% crit chance from hide (unique among Stalker AoE attacks).  I think Dual Blades is probably better though as your main attach chain includes a decent AoE (Sweeping Strike) and you get to use the Sweep combo every time your Build Up ATO goes off.  If you need more AoE then you also have access to Thousand Cuts, although I wound up respeccing out of it. 

 

I believe both sets are near the higher end of ST dps too.  Dual Blades gets to leverage 2 -res procs in its attack chain and Kinetic Melee has a nutty fast Assassin's Strike and 3 fast attacks to use (and build focus with) in between ASes.

 

 

[Roderick]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:47 AM, Haijinx said:

For rule of cool you do have to give a nod to ninja blade though.

 

Since the main tempo slowing animation was the spinning sword, the set looks awesome.

 

Plus the assassins strike is the coolest assassins strike animation available.

Broadsword would like to have a word with you. 

 

The lunging strike for its Assassin Strike may be my favorite animation in the entire game. The quick version being used to stab a runner in the back (especially if it drops them) is particularly amazing. 

[Seroster01]

On 1/1/2020 at 12:01 PM, Frosticus said:

Proc'd out savage leap is among the best aoe attacks in the game. It most closely compares to a sentinel nuke, but with half the recharge and a very fast cast. It is up every 15 or so seconds with a perma hasten build and procs at 89% for 3.5ppm IOs.

It also ensures you move  faster than anyone else from spawn to spawn.

 

Psychic wail is great too. It, along with aim, and follow up, are why I made a melee fort instead of nightwidow, but that is a 2.5 min power vs a 40 sec base rech power that do similar damage in game. 16 vs 10 targets, but leap moves you super fast around the battle too. 

 

Truthfully I rolled savage on a whim because someone said hidden hemo was good. It really is, I think it is only less than crushing uppercut in terms of damage (albeit a dot, but much faster cycle time). Unhidden hemo is meh, so use it accordingly. But savage leap is the absolute star of the set.

Tried to make a post 2x now & my phone freaked out & I lost it. This time I typed it in my note app, so hopefully this won't happen again...
I made a SM/Bio Stalker who's up to 13 or so now, & when I got in to build planning I realized I had quite a few questions for those more experienced with SM, both build related & how it plays in actual combat.

My biggest question, though probably not the most important, is on slotting Savage Leap. I saw someone say they put all the available damage procs + the PVP -res IO. From what I could see in mids, this would take 5 slots of procs & leave 1 slot free for whatever. Is this the suggested route? If so, what's the ideal option for that slot? According to the PPM worksheet its functionally impossible to slot enough recharge in Leap to drop a 3.5 PPM below a 90% chance to proc (it would take 180% slotted recharge, which AFAIK is impossible due to ED effects). As for what to put in that single slot, my first thought was that a +5 Armageddon D/R/A would be the most bang I could get out of that single slot, but then it would be impossible to get the 5 pc in another power for that sweet +10% global Rech. Another option I'd thought to consider but hadn't played with before I left home was cutting out 2 of the procs & instead sticking a 3p of Stalker's Guile in there + the 3 procs that looked most favorable. I felt like this might be a good option since I'm already trying to divide it in 2 in order to get double 3-slot bonuses for 10% total S/L defense & some of the other PBAOE & ST sets have pretty attractive 5/6 piece bonuses. I'd assume that sticking those 3 in Leap probably isn't the ideal setup for Leap itself, but it might open up some options elsewhere that could help the build.

On the subject of Stalker's guile, where do folks normally put the Chance for Hide? I suppose this is somewhat of a general Stalker question, though I think it might be a tad more complex in SMs case. From what I've gathered in this discussion it sounds like Hide crit is best spent on Hemorrhage & thus the hide proc probably shouldn't go INTO Hemorrhage. It seems like Assassin's Flurry might be the best place for it, as it has by far the longest base cooldown of the remaining ST powers & thus probably poised to have the best returns from the PPM mechanics. I've also thought Savage Leap might be a good option for it if I go with the aforementioned 3p Guile in it, for the same reasons its good for all of the other procs. But then I wasn't sure what would happen to the hidden effect if I hit something with Leap. All of this reminds me that I really wish the ATO w/ a 3p S/L bonus was the one with a passive global effect rather than a normal PPM, but it's not. So I'll just sulk.😢

My main gameplay focused question is basically just "how does Blood Frenzy work out in real usage?". I know that 2 powers consume it, & the PbAOE at least seems to have a significant increase in function if used at 5 stacks. The interwebs (archived City of Data & Paragon Wiki) says Shred is another consumer, but I don't remember it saying that in-game & I haven't noticed it functioning as listed in gameplay (web states it has a 20% chance per stack to reset instantly, which I can't recall happening, but I may have simply missed it occurring).

How does the build & spend cycle typically play out in normal combat scenarios? Should I try to not consume Frenzy while at 5 stacks in order to avoid Exhaustion? How impactful is Exhaustion in general? How long does it last? One of the consumers is Hemorrhage, but I'm pretty sure the in-game power details are either blank or everything just says "Special", and I can't find any numbers on the net or in Mids that give me a clear picture on how Hemo scales with Frenzy stacks, or why it benefits so much from Hide. Do I only use it with full stacks? Press it whenever I end up hidden? Rending Flurry sounds like it gets a big boost in range at least from consuming a 5 stack, so that seems like it may be a good option to take Exhaustion for.

Are there any other bits I need to know while planning this build?

That's all I can think of at the moment. Took me a day & a half to get this all down because we're travelling & I've had to do a lot of baby wrangling + a fair amount of packing. Hopefully some of these questions get answered.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Seroster01

[Frosticus]

I haven't actually tested savage leap with additional recharge, but it should be a 15ft aoe with base rech of 40. Which according to the ppm calculation should mean it is 89% for 3.5ppm procs. 

 

I slot 4 damage procs, 1 -res and a +5 arma dam. I use musculature radial to finish off the damage enhancing and to help my endurance (sm/bio). I've posted in some other savage threads how power performs with said procs.

 

Chance for hide proc almost always goes in AS for most stalkers. Savage is no different. If it hides you then use hemo vs something meaty. Or if fighting a pack then use rending flurry, or ball lightning.

 

The only time I use blood stacks at 5 is in rending flurry. Leap>AS (rehides)>rending flurry at 5 stacks and 15ft aoe. 

Lead that off with an epic aoe and that is some of the best (and largest) aoe any stalker can do.  It is also very easy with no special positioning required, plus savage leap always ensures you are at the front of race to the spawns haha.

 

Otherwise, if hemo exhausts me while I'm fighting then so be it. I'm not going to avoid hemo (especially if I'm hidden). There are no real downsides to being exhausted.  Watch your combat log to see how hemo functions hidden/unhidden. Blood stacks help it, but not as much as hidden status and not as much at the 5th stack helps rending flurry. 

 

I don't use shred.