Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[Dr Causality]

 

 

Looks like we failed to take this solutions discussion over to @Bopper's new thread.  🙂

 

 

 

 

  On 3/9/2020 at 7:12 PM, Trickshooter said:

The Solutions:

1. Remove the +Resistance
2. Remove the ability to enhance the +Resistance
3. Flag the power to ignore outside sources of Strength

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Out of those (2) would still be preferable to me.   But it seems like you might be overlooking possible solutions.     For instance ould we use psuedo pets to split the Def and Res components, so that the Res alone didn't take external buffs, but the Def could still be Powerboosted?

 

 

*Edit*  My hope is @Bopper has some ideas he'll share in that other thread. 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Trickshooter]

  On 3/9/2020 at 7:48 PM, Dr Causality said:

Out of those (2) would still be preferable to me.   But it seems like you might be overlooking possible solutions.     For instance ould we use psuedo pets to split the Def and Res components, so that the Res alone didn't take external buffs, but the Def could still be Powerboosted?

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That could work, but in my opinion it's a bit of a weird solution and kind of asking a lot (development-wise) in order to accommodate behavior that might not have even been intended. It all just depends on what the new devs consider the intended design and what they consider the bug.

 

In this specific case, is Fade's +Resistance missing its flag to "Ignore enhancements & buffs" or is Fade itself missing its flag to be "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs"? Both could be equally likely if not for the fact that Fade accepts Resist Damage Enhancements, which makes the latter option most likely the bug. Knowing that, we can assume that Fade was possibly not intended to benefit from Power Boost. If that's the case, then the new devs probably don't see a need to find a way to allow Fade's +Defense to continue to benefit from Power Boost.

[Dr Causality]

  On 3/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, Trickshooter said:

That could work, but in my opinion it's a bit of a weird solution

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Definitely a weird solution. But it's weird problem.   

 

 

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...asking a lot (development-wise)

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Yeah.   The level of development effort to my mind obviously needs to be heavily considered.  

 

 

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....in order to accommodate behavior that might not have even been intended.

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....Knowing that, we can assume that Fade was possibly not intended to benefit from Power Boost.

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But that assumption also doesn't make sense of the situation because then why would Devs not have immediately patched it back on Live?

 

I'm not sure original Dev intentions would, or even should change our decisions.  But I am definitely curious to know why original Devs never did patch this back on live.    It does seem like an accidental  bug, that they could have patch right away with practically no complaints.  Not patching it seems intentional.     So why didn't they?     

[Trickshooter]

  On 3/9/2020 at 9:13 PM, Dr Causality said:

  So why didn't they?    

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Honestly, they probably just didn’t know. I tried to look through the old forums on the way back machine and I didn’t see it mentioned at all. It’s possible not many players, if any, noticed until recently.

[Captain Powerhouse]

  On 3/9/2020 at 9:28 PM, Trickshooter said:

Honestly, they probably just didn’t know.

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Very likely. Had I noticed it earlier i would had patched it centuries ago. Its a big game and things can easily fly under the radar.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[MetaVileTerror]

"years ago"

 

Freudian slip, or was that more telling than intended?

[Captain Powerhouse]

Fixed

[MetaVileTerror]

Cunning!

 . . . you must be Mender Silos in disguise, eh?

[oedipus_tex]

Thanks for the update and bug fix to Fade. The power is  still very strong.
 

RE: Bug fix versus nerf, I would argue that it is both. The numbers on Power Boosted Fade (and Farsight) were too extreme. Excuse me while I emphasize at the risk of sounding shrill: they would never, ever, ever, ever ever be allowed (ever ever) to show up in an Armor set. Ever. If those numbers are too extreme for an Armor set they are too extreme for a Buff/Debuff set. It is true the Buff/Debuff sets are powerful. However this does not mean they are allowed to entirely ignore guidance. There is an archetype called Sentinels with an actual armor set that could not meet the numbers. That's an issue.

 

Thanks to the developers for the conversation. I'm curious to see what happens to Farsight.  

[nzer]

  On 3/9/2020 at 10:25 PM, oedipus_tex said:

they would never, ever, ever, ever ever be allowed (ever ever) to show up in an Armor set. Ever.

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Good thing we're not talking about armor sets then.

 

Again, Force Field provides 53% defense to the entire team without IO sets or incarnates. Are we pretending that would be allowed in an armor set?

[Wavicle]

  On 3/9/2020 at 11:30 PM, nzer said:

Good thing we're not talking about armor sets then.

 

Again, Force Field provides 53% defense to the entire team without IO sets or incarnates. Are we pretending that would be allowed in an armor set?

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That’s ALL it does. Time does that and a lot more.

[Infinitum]

  On 3/9/2020 at 11:33 PM, Wavicle said:

That’s ALL it does. Time does that and a lot more.

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That's all you have to do that's such a huge number.

 

Again, time is good but nowhere nearly as good as all the pearl clutching going on in here about it is.

[Frosticus]

  On 3/9/2020 at 11:42 PM, Infinitum said:

That's all you have to do that's such a huge number.

 

Again, time is good but nowhere nearly as good as all the pearl clutching going on in here about it is.

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it kind of is. It's like if you combined the entirety of FF with the entirety of Radiation, leaving out only the powerful -regen of lingering rad. Ya you lose the mez protection bubble, but instead get to cast the FF shields on yourself too.

 

It is pretty powerful. 

 

Now, a lot of that power may be considered overkill and unneeded in today's game, but it is there no matter how much handwaving people do. 

 

I'm over here playing the heck out of poison to 50 again heh, so don't mind me.

[Infinitum]

  On 3/10/2020 at 1:32 AM, Frosticus said:

it kind of is. It's like if you combined the entirety of FF with the entirety of Radiation, leaving out only the powerful -regen of lingering rad. Ya you lose the mez protection bubble, but instead get to cast the FF shields on yourself too.

 

It is pretty powerful. 

 

Now, a lot of that power may be considered overkill and unneeded in today's game, but it is there no matter how much handwaving people do. 

 

I'm over here playing the heck out of poison to 50 again heh, so don't mind me.

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yeah, thats not how it works... at all

[nzer]

  On 3/10/2020 at 1:32 AM, Frosticus said:

it kind of is. It's like if you combined the entirety of FF with the entirety of Radiation, leaving out only the powerful -regen of lingering rad. Ya you lose the mez protection bubble, but instead get to cast the FF shields on yourself too.

 

It is pretty powerful. 

 

Now, a lot of that power may be considered overkill and unneeded in today's game, but it is there no matter how much handwaving people do. 

 

I'm over here playing the heck out of poison to 50 again heh, so don't mind me.

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Time gets significantly less defense than FF, significantly less -def and -tohit than Rad, no mez protection, and very little -regen. I'm not going to argue it's not better than both (though that's not a terribly high bar, especially for FF), but it's nowhere near the entirety of both. Maybe if you just look at buff/debuff types and ignore the amounts.

[Frosticus]

Oh now guys, you should know better. 

This thread has been discussing time with relation to powerboost right?

 

Let's look at vs +3's

Tohit debuffs stack with defense dontcha know?

3 slot Times junk + PB'd farsight = 24.7% (65% effective) + 32.1% = 48.155% vs +3 enemies. AKA softcapped.

With just SO's.

Perma.

 

Not a single IO was used.

 

A PB'ing FF could put you in a similar position with ally only shields and the big bubble. 53% def actually.

Like I said, time is basically able to cast that upon themselves.

But time still has all this jazz going on

below

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Rad vs Time

equal resistance debuff

similar def debuff

greater heal in time

chrono is as good as AM

Better area slows in time

similar damage debuffs

way less -regen

 

So ya, it is like combining rad with FF, losing the -regen and mez protection, but being able to cast shields on yourself. But keep waving those hands. 

[Wavicle]

  On 3/9/2020 at 5:20 PM, Dr Causality said:

This completely breaks builds that have worked the entire time Homecoming has been public and worked on live all the way back to Issue 22, March 2012.  

 

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Darkness Affinity was a Pay to Play set and so the devs would have been reluctant to fix it even if they knew about the problem.

That's no longer a consideration.

[Infinitum]

  On 3/10/2020 at 3:10 AM, Frosticus said:

Oh now guys, you should know better. 

This thread has been discussing time with relation to powerboost right?

 

Let's look at vs +3's

Tohit debuffs stack with defense dontcha know?

3 slot Times junk + PB'd farsight = 24.7% (65% effective) + 32.1% = 48.155% vs +3 enemies. AKA softcapped.

With just SO's.

Perma.

 

Not a single IO was used.

 

A PB'ing FF could put you in a similar position with ally only shields and the big bubble. 53% def actually.

Like I said, time is basically able to cast that upon themselves.

But time still has all this jazz going on

below

      /

   /

 /

Rad vs Time

equal resistance debuff

similar def debuff

greater heal in time

chrono is as good as AM

Better area slows in time

similar damage debuffs

way less -regen

 

So ya, it is like combining rad with FF, losing the -regen and mez protection, but being able to cast shields on yourself. But keep waving those hands. 

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Yeah, again thats not how any of that works in the grand scheme of the end game which is when you basically get to realize PB+farsight on most builds anyway.

 

Kinetics dominates time on all the FOTM results - thats why none of that matters.  Everyone is softcapped already, so the only thing you are handicapping are the solo player or casual player.  You get the PB Farsight so late in the game there are way better toys our there at that point and damage is what the goal is in the end game incarnate scope.

 

Its not as game breaking as people whining and complaining about it being game breaking.

 

Ultimately i could care less, im a tanker so it wont affect me either way, but i can tell when something is broken and this just isnt one of them - especially not compared to energy melee, and  myriad of other facets of the game like underperforming sets that need a buff.

 

Thats where your attention should be, not gasping over PB +Farsight.

[Frosticus]

This thread is about farsight and fade. Fade has been fixed.

Not about energy melee, which the devs have stated they will be looking at soon(tm).

  On 3/10/2020 at 4:12 AM, Infinitum said:

Kinetics dominates time on all the FOTM results - thats why none of that matters.  Everyone is softcapped already, so the only thing you are handicapping are the solo player or casual player.  You get the PB Farsight so late in the game there are way better toys our there at that point and damage is what the goal is in the end game incarnate scope.

 

Its not as game breaking as people whining and complaining about it being game breaking.

 

Ultimately i could care less, im a tanker so it wont affect me either way, but i can tell when something is broken and this just isnt one of them - especially not compared to energy melee, and  myriad of other facets of the game like underperforming sets that need a buff.

 

Thats where your attention should be, not gasping over PB +Farsight.

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  On 3/10/2020 at 1:32 AM, Frosticus said:

Now, a lot of that power may be considered overkill and unneeded in today's game, but it is there no matter how much handwaving people do. 

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Which brings us full circle to more of this 👋

[Troo]

did some one mention energy melee?!

are they fixing it?

what's going on?! TELL MEEEeee!

[Infinitum]

  On 3/10/2020 at 4:23 AM, Frosticus said:

Not about energy melee, which the devs have stated they will be looking at soon(tm).

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I figured since you were talking about FF and rad, anything was fair game.

 

Cause EM in this discussion is as valid as your comparison of time to rad.

[Infinitum]

  On 3/10/2020 at 4:27 AM, Troo said:

did some one mention energy melee?!

are they fixing it?

what's going on?! TELL MEEEeee!

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**Gently puts blanket back over cage**

 

Sorry friend, didn't mean to invoke dreams of days gone by.

[nzer]

  On 3/10/2020 at 3:10 AM, Frosticus said:

Let's look at vs +3's

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Or we could look at +4s, which is what people actually run. Or we could look at +4 incarnates, which is the closest this game comes to actual difficulty, and where FF's def is twice as effective as Time's. But both of those are bad for the argument you're making, so sure, +3s are fine. And let's certainly ignore that in a real team either set will likely put everyone well above 80% def to everything.

[Wavicle]

  On 3/10/2020 at 5:30 AM, nzer said:

And let's certainly ignore that in a real team either set will likely put everyone well above 80% def to everything.

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No, let’s not ignore that, because that does not help your case, given all the Other tools Time has and FF does not.

[nzer]

  On 3/10/2020 at 5:32 AM, Wavicle said:

No, let’s not ignore that, because that does not help your case, given all the Other tools Time has and FF does not.

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I've never argued FF competes with Time in practical scenarios...