Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[csr]

20 hours ago, summers said:

 

• According to Patch notes, Rise to the Challenge is now normalised in its Taunt, however, Rise to the Challenge no longer has a Taunt component in its power description, yet it accepts Taunt enhancements. Is this power broken? As a secondary question, can this power miss? It doesn't accept accuracy enhancements

Are you my taunt aura because I can't tell anymore!

 

 

I mentioned similar issues in the last thread and CP responded.  Apparently all but a few Tanker taunt auras are now handled by Gauntlet.

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

5 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

I don’t think we’ve made much progress at all. AoE heavy tanks were never really in need of much buffing to begin with. So we really haven’t gotten much of anywhere.

They can do the AT benefits first, then individual sets second. Perhaps Tanker sets that are more ST based could be given some splash damage ala Thunderstrike, to allow them to benefit more from the AT's AE enhancing nature.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Individual sets will be reviewed at a later time, for all ATs.

[csr]

42 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Tankers aren't going to have any more trouble soloing the low levels than they did before.

Actually, they do.  The DS doesn't kick in enough to offset the loss of Bruising until level 15.  The AT modifiers scale in over the first 20 levels, so the Tanker DS increase from 0.8 to 0.95 is muted at low levels.  At level 1, for example, the base damage is only 3% higher, and you've lost Bruising, so you are doing about 13% less damage (based on testing) on Pineapple than Live.  Even at level 10 you are still doing about 10% less single target damage than on Live.  So, it can take noticeably longer to level a Tanker by actually playing solo out of the box.  Say, by running the David Wincott Hollows arc with its two early "Defeat All" missions.  Or even by running an AE arc such as "Tunnel Witches".

 

Mostly just a theoretical concern, except for the possibility of putting off newbs.  And I hope that the devs want lots of new players to come play the game.

Edited January 12, 2020 by csr
Clarification for why I think it matters.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, csr said:

Actually, they do.  The DS doesn't kick in enough to offset the loss of Bruising until level 15.  The AT modifiers scale in over the first 20 levels, so the Tanker DS increase from 0.8 to 0.95 is muted at low levels.  At level 1, for example, the base damage is only 3% higher, and you've lost Bruising, so you are doing about 13% less damage (based on testing) on Pineapple than Live.  Even at level 10 you are still doing about 10% less single target damage than on Live.  So, it can take noticeably longer to level a Tanker by actually playing solo out of the box.  Say, by running the David Wincott Hollows arc with its two early "Defeat All" missions.  Or even by running an AE arc such as "Tunnel Witches".

 

Mostly just a theoretical concern, except for the possibility of putting off newbs.  And I hope that the devs want lots of new players to come play the game.

Assuming you actually use the T1. Which I don't, ever, as it's dramatically outperformed by other attacks. Using any other attack would more than offset the paltry damage that bruising may apply, if your other powers are recharged in the window. Tanks have very poor attack chains at that level to even worry about leveraging it. The mechanic doesn't result in a marked, meaningful increase in actual play. Too many scenarios where it's wasted, easier to replace or useless.

Edited January 13, 2020 by SwitchFade

[siolfir]

59 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Assuming you actually use the T1. Which I don't, ever, as it's dramatically outperformed by other attacks. Using any other attack would more than offset the paltry damage that bruising may apply, if your other powers are recharged in the window. Tanks have very poor attack chains at that level to even worry about leveraging it. The mechanic doesn't result in a marked, meaningful increase in actual play. Too many scenarios where it's wasted, easier to replace or useless.

I will grant you the point that most of them aren't worth bothering with, but there are some sets that actually have t1 attacks which are worth using.

[Wavicle]

9 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I will grant you the point that most of them aren't worth bothering with, but there are some sets that actually have t1 attacks which are worth using.

I would be pretty surprised if looking at the usefulness of powers that are required, that is T1 secondaries, is not on the radar for the homecoming team.

[csr]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Assuming you actually use the T1. Which I don't, ever, as it's dramatically outperformed by other attacks. Using any other attack would more than offset the paltry damage that bruising may apply, if your other powers are recharged in the window. Tanks have very poor attack chains at that level to even worry about leveraging it. The mechanic doesn't result in a marked, meaningful increase in actual play. Too many scenarios where it's wasted, easier to replace or useless.

Ever?  I find that hard to believe unless you never play at low levels and also never play BS, DB, Elect, Energy, Katana, Spines or Titan Weapons.  All of which have decent T1s.  Or Ice Melee, which has a hard time building an attack chain below level 28 without using Frozen Fists.  Anyway...

 

The hit in performance is at levels 1-15.  Or perhaps more pertinently, the first one or two play sessions for a new player on a Tanker.  Many people give up on Tankers as they are now within that time frame.  And this patch will make them a bit worse at those levels.  As I stated, it's more a matter of principal than practicality, but I think having Tankers get worse at one of the things they are already bad at is an unfortunately side effect of the form these buffs have morphed into.

[Replacement]

Kind of an edge case (at least it would be edge it it weren't so damn popular) but the DFB Vahz badge definitely gets in the way of giving Tankers any sort of splash mechanism that they couldn't choose to disable.

 

[summers]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:12 AM, summers said:

• According to Patch notes, Rise to the Challenge is now normalised in its Taunt, however, Rise to the Challenge no longer has a Taunt component in its power description, yet it accepts Taunt enhancements. Is this power broken? As a secondary question, can this power miss? It doesn't accept accuracy enhancements

Are you my taunt aura because I can't tell anymore!

 

8 hours ago, csr said:

I mentioned similar issues in the last thread and CP responded.  Apparently all but a few Tanker taunt auras are now handled by Gauntlet.

 

This is where I'm getting confused, there's some information that I'm not able to resolve in my head about what is meant to happen:

 

Gauntlet

• Is now applied via a global proc. Any single target power that takes accuracy enhancements will trigger an AoE taunt. Every AoE power that takes accuracy enhancements will taunt the enemies it hit.
• Radius is now the same for all attacks (10ft, 5 targets max)
• Taunt scale is now 10% higher than Brute's
• Brute PunchVoke is now also applied via a global proc. Any power that either inflicts damage or takes accuracy enhancements will be able to punch-voke.)

 

Taunt Auras

• Brute and Tanker Ice Armor powers no longer have built-in Taunt, they are now instead covered by the inherent global proc.
• The following Taunt Auras are now all scale 1 Taunt (approximately 13.6s at level 50): 
  • Invincibility 
  • Against All Odds 
  • Rise to the Challenge (Brute and Tank only)

 

If Rise to the Challenge is going to be affected by Gauntlet, it would appear to fit into the "AoE" powers, but only AoE powers that accept accuracy enhancements will taunt on hit. Rise to the Challenge does not accept accuracy enhancements (should it? Can it miss?).

 

If Rise to the Challenge is getting a scale 1 taunt, it isn't in the power description itself.

 

@Captain Powerhouse are you able to help clarify this?

[Captain Powerhouse]

The proc was expanded to trigger of most attacks, I don't have the details at hand right now but need to fix that patch note. Thought I already had but obviously wrong.

[Replacement]

Pie in the sky time:

Base damage .8, Gauntlet is a free toggle, added to your tray on creation like Domination.  When enabled, attacks hit a 2nd time at .15 scale in an aoe.  When disabled, attacks Bruise through a global proc.

 

Yep, I know, I'll keep wishing.  But remember CP, you can always say "I'm working on something like this" and we'll all assume it was your idea, and I'd be like... good idea.

[Noyjitat]

On 1/7/2020 at 2:17 PM, Super Atom said:

You mean that thing they can't reach ever on their own or even close to? Brutes do less damage than tanks base and less damage than stalkers/scrappers in general. They have a high potential for damage sure but realistically you will never reach damage cap on your own, not even close. Unless you have a tray of reds in your back pocket every mob. How exactly is that "broken"

 

Also, im not against lowering it like they did because again you never got there anyway. It'll go completely unnoticed by nearly every player in most situations. My thing is why are they even touching brutes, brutes aren't the problem. Tanks needed love and even the devs knew it and (again) the AOE increase is a good direction.

I made the same argument about not giving tanks a damage cap increase whether its easy or not for them to reach 500%. They’re tanks and still shouldn’t be getting any damage bonus increase or damage buff increases as far as im concerned. That said brutes should also not be receiving another damage bonus nerf.

 

i think efforts should instead be focused on adding new sets rather than nerfing/changing entire ATs.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Noyjitat said:

brutes should also not be receiving another damage bonus nerf.

Yea they should, but they won't.  Brute design was the biggest mistake ever made by the creators of this game.

[summers]

15 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The proc was expanded to trigger of most attacks, I don't have the details at hand right now but need to fix that patch note. Thought I already had but obviously wrong.

Thank you for looking into this, and I am very excited for the new patch!

[Captain Powerhouse]

Verified Willpower's RttC, not sure why it isnt showing in the game but taunt is indeed in the power attribs.

[siolfir]

Woot, changes are up to RC!

 

Are we there yet? (repeat every 2 seconds until live)

[summers]

8 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Verified Willpower's RttC, not sure why it isnt showing in the game but taunt is indeed in the power attribs.

It's also missing in the description of Invulneratbility - Invincibility, the defence set Aura. Weird!

[Myrmidon]

20 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Verified Willpower's RttC, not sure why it isnt showing in the game but taunt is indeed in the power attribs.

So long as it has that godly duration increase, you can make flowers pop into the air every time it triggers if you like.

[Haijinx]

26 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

So long as it has that godly duration increase, you can make flowers pop into the air every time it triggers if you like.

Uh I'd rather not have flowers though.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Uh I'd rather not have flowers though.

How about fishes then.😂

[Myrmidon]

15 hours ago, summers said:

It's also missing in the description of Invulneratbility - Invincibility, the defence set Aura. Weird!

Might be missing in the SR aura as well.

[Myrmidon]

On 1/13/2020 at 2:18 PM, sacredlunatic said:

Brute design was the biggest mistake ever made by the creators of this game.

Funny. Despite the fact that I make liberal use of it, I would say the Invention System was a much greater mistake.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Funny. Despite the fact that I make liberal use of it, I would say the Invention System was a much greater mistake.

I think not setting limits was the big mistake.

 

If there were IO caps for things like resist and recharge and defense IOs would have broken things a lot less. 

 

Probably should have been related to how ED works.  Im assuming there were balance reasons why recharge EDs at ~95% while Defense EDs at ~57% 

 

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

 

Probably should have been related to how ED works.  Im assuming there were balance reasons why recharge EDs at ~95% while Defense EDs at ~57% 

 

The enhancements are on a different schedule.  In both cases it's 3 SOs worth.