Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[Kanil]

I still would like to know if bruising is ever coming back since that's one of those flavor things that defines a tank from a brute conceptually (whereas a tank makes a team stronger and a brute is more 'selfish') that I'm sad to see go. 

 

Is there any reason why a revamped bruising (ie minor stacking -res on all attacks or nonstacking -res on all attacks thats allowed to stack between diff tanks) is off the table?

[Mystic_Cross]

14 hours ago, Replacement said:

This is mostly EM.

If all of the following are true...

• You're strongly single target
• You use your tier 1 regardless of server
• You're solo

... You will likely not notice a difference.

 

Things that should make the changes noticeable, though I don't mean night-and-day:

• Partying with someone who offers recharge or damage buffs
• Using a lot of aoe, including offensive toggles
• Running leadership (and some sort of performance parser. I cannot imagine noticing the difference on this with the naked eye)

I see. Thanks for laying that out. I had a feeling it might be something with /Em given that the primary "bruise" power was always better than the second pick. So Tanks are more or less unchanged damage-wise aside from having higher max (buffed) damage capability in a team setting, and better AoE in those sets that are heavy with it. 

 

Now, Is there an intent of these changes posted anywhere by the devs? I've been looking around a little bit but haven't come across anything yet...

 

I'm curious because, when looking at many of the changes to Tanks and Brutes, they seem to be driven (at least somewhat) by "popular" agenda, and I'm not convinced this will be good for all ATs involved, specifically Tankers, in the long run. Not that my opinion holds more weight than anyone else, but I'd still like to know what direction the development plan is taking, and what the reasons are. If anyone would be so kind... I'm all ears 

[siolfir]

I copied and ran Radiant Charge - my rad/elec Brute on Reunion - in the stress test to test the Fury tweaks.

 

On a team of 8 including a Tanker and another Brute I was consistently maintaining higher Fury than on Live; since I skipped the t1 attack every attack animation is "long" but despite that it took little time to build Fury even when I was letting the Tanker run ahead (which I did a few times). During the Hami raid Fury was even staying in the mid 90s, which doesn't happen on Live even when farming, and wasn't happening on the team earlier even when I did jump in to grab aggro first. I wonder if it's counting people in the league in the bonus calculation instead of just teammates?

 

Obviously, since I was on a Brute I didn't get to test any Tanker changes, but since I don't have any Tankers beyond the ones I created on Pineapple to test specific things related to these changes I wouldn't have a frame of reference for comparison.

Edited January 12, 2020 by siolfir
rewording

[summers]

After a quick run through on Pineapple I have some more feedback.

 

• The 'documentation' for this is non-existent, and it's really bad. Please make this a priority so people know what the powers do and can select them with sufficient knowledge of their effect. I couldn't find where in game it told me what my (new) powers do, so I don't know how people are expected to properly understand what is going on. As a WP/WM Tanker, none of my powers suggested an increased arc, and my only inherent - Gauntlet - where I expected some kind of description to exist, merely mentions that each time a tanker attacks they enrage the target and those around them. 
   
• According to Patch notes, Rise to the Challenge is now normalised in its Taunt, however, Rise to the Challenge no longer has a Taunt component in its power description, yet it accepts Taunt enhancements. Is this power broken? As a secondary question, can this power miss? It doesn't accept accuracy enhancements

Are you my taunt aura because I can't tell anymore!

 

• Arc and Radius Improvements: These function as "expected", though as noted before, the numbers in the power don't reflect the game experience, and to me this is plain wrong. I should be able to read what a power does and that's it. There was a lot of confusion when this came out: Do arcs 'reach further', ie. is it their arc or radius increased in size? Do Epics change? What about powers like Spring Attack or other pseudopets?
   
• Damage: It feels good. The damage and arc size is very noticeable, and it is especially valuable when using previously narrow arcs that have gained quite a bit of extra value now.
   
• The T1, without Bruising, is now irredeemably bad for many power sets. On War Mace, it is hot garbage and just a power tax on a level 50. It would be nice if there was a little something that they had that made a corner case for their usage, but my first impression is that I don't ever want to use it. Additionally, a (very minor) amount of complexity and strategy was removed by taking out Bruising (do I debuff before my big hit - are they on low enough health that I just hit them with the hard stuff first, or do they have enough to survive that I need to start with Bruising initially?)
   
• The Taunt power doesn't reduce range by 100%, it's reduced by 75%. There appears to be a limit on Range (linked here). Below is a picture of the distance that a Taunted enemy is shooting me from:

I'm in the puddle of enemies, and that Council member has been Taunted and is continually attacking from that range.

The Council enemy is Blue so should not be resisting the -range. It appears the Range limit is still in effect.

 

Final Thoughts

It seems to do broadly what it wanted to do: I do more damage, my AOE is definitely superior. I'm worried that Rise to the Challenge doesn't work as a taunt aura anymore, and there's some definite documentation issues that would smooth out the confusion here.

Edited January 12, 2020 by summers

[Captain Powerhouse]

3 hours ago, siolfir said:

During the Hami raid Fury was even staying in the mid 90s, which doesn't happen on Live even when farming, and wasn't happening on the team earlier even when I did jump in to grab aggro first.

 

Does the build have the Brute's Fury proc?

Did you have teammates nearby?

[Monos King]

On 1/7/2020 at 12:02 PM, Replacement said:

Meanwhile, the alternative is giving Blasters a 90% damage resist cap (and probably a boost to the strength of their epic armors too).

Wait, what? How? Genuinely confused as to why that's the derivative alternative here.

[Monos King]

12 hours ago, Kanil said:

I still would like to know if bruising is ever coming back since that's one of those flavor things that defines a tank from a brute conceptually (whereas a tank makes a team stronger and a brute is more 'selfish') that I'm sad to see go. 

And bruising will not come back as long as people want tanks to hit hard. Well, unless people decide they want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Replacement]

9 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

I see. Thanks for laying that out. I had a feeling it might be something with /Em given that the primary "bruise" power was always better than the second pick. So Tanks are more or less unchanged damage-wise aside from having higher max (buffed) damage capability in a team setting, and better AoE in those sets that are heavy with it. 

 

Now, Is there an intent of these changes posted anywhere by the devs? I've been looking around a little bit but haven't come across anything yet...

 

I'm curious because, when looking at many of the changes to Tanks and Brutes, they seem to be driven (at least somewhat) by "popular" agenda, and I'm not convinced this will be good for all ATs involved, specifically Tankers, in the long run. Not that my opinion holds more weight than anyone else, but I'd still like to know what direction the development plan is taking, and what the reasons are. If anyone would be so kind... I'm all ears 

So one thing worth noting is that with all of your base damage numbers going up, you don't actually need to be at damage CAP to see a benefit.  As a simple example ignoring enhancements and such, if something gave you +50% damage buff on Live, an attack for 80 damage would shift to 120 (+40 improvement).

On Pineapple, that would be a 95 base, so with the damage boost, it would go to 142.5 (47.5 improvement).

 

You're going to get better numbers, but yeah, it's nothing groundbreaking.  

 

From my own messing about, I feel the complete lack of something for the ST sets is the most valid criticism of this test build. But perhaps if we can start here with better aoe, we can buff the tanker versions of the ST sets individually.

1 hour ago, monos1 said:

Wait, what? How? Genuinely confused as to why that's the derivative alternative here.

That was a bit tongue-in-cheeck, but only barely.

 

Events according to me (which is filtered through poor memory, and (il)logical leaps):

One of the early Pineapple builds had much higher Tanker base damage cap, and in our rush to make a tanker that deals 90% as much damage as a Brute, we finally realized that version of Tanker had theoretical damage up there near Blasters.

 

That didn't sit right to have a Tanker potentially keeping up with your blaster, so down it went. But by the transitive property...

Brutes deal blaster damage while tanking Tanker damage.

It's just not ok.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Replacement

[Replacement]

23 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Are they noticeable enough to have the effect that this was all about creating?

That's the killing question, huh?  Not on Kinetic melee... I've been enjoying melee cones like Jacob's Ladder that I would normally strongly consider skipping. I'm no expert on "average" expectations for aoe, but it feels to me like kinetic and energy melee aren't set up to benefit. I liked staff.

 

The damage isn't great but I enjoyed the GIANT cone from Wall of Force (I can imagine this power becoming a good Tanker pick for ST-heavy sets).

 

6 hours ago, summers said:

After a quick run through on Pineapple I have some more feedback.

 

• The 'documentation' for this is non-existent, and it's really bad. Please make this a priority so people know what the powers do and can select them with sufficient knowledge of their effect. I couldn't find where in game it told me what my (new) powers do, so I don't know how people are expected to properly understand what is going on. As a WP/WM Tanker, none of my powers suggested an increased arc, and my only inherent - Gauntlet - where I expected some kind of description to exist, merely mentions that each time a tanker attacks they enrage the target and those around them. 

Yeah, it's a bit hard to follow what's changed and what all is affected. For cones, for example, I've taken to doing some manual testing just to ensure if they're applying or not ("this thing says 90 degrees, so it should be 180" - those results can be eyeballed).

 

BUT, it's for the best. No use wasting all of our volunteer dev time on documenting things not likely to go live (poor CP has already trashed like 90% of his work, it feels like).

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Does the build have the Brute's Fury proc?

Did you have teammates nearby?

Yes - in Devastating Blow. 

Yes - I was on the yellow team.

 

The difference was, I was also near teammates while running a Market Crash just before the Hami raid, and was not getting Fury to remain that high during those missions.

 

I don't think it's game-breaking or should hold up a release, but I thought it was unusual. Since it's a situation that would be difficult to replicate without coordination (or the higher population stress tests) I thought it worth reporting here so it could be looked for.

[Captain Powerhouse]

53 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The difference was, I was also near teammates while running a Market Crash just before the Hami raid, and was not getting Fury to remain that high during those missions.

Maybe because it’s easier to keep attacking continuously on Hammy, since it’s a static enemy while stuff in Market crash might move? The team buff only should work for up to 7 allies within 30ft (20ft in next build.)

[Captain Powerhouse]

As far as power numbers: at current time, no buff is ever reflected on power info window. The same is true for boost range or conserve energy, you won’t see a change on those values.

 

I have asked the about the viability of getting the game code to display the applied effect of these buffs in the power info, but the answer to that is currently unknown and my understanding is it’s not a high priority request. Maybe it gets touched whenever the bug that makes redirect powers show no info gets finally fixed.

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Maybe because it’s easier to keep attacking continuously on Hammy, since it’s a static enemy while stuff in Market crash might move? The team buff only should work for up to 7 allies within 30ft (20ft in next build.)

I was attacking as things recharged in both cases, though, especially in the "Freakshow tunnel farm" first mission. I tried staying with the team for parts to see if the Tanker fighting next to me was affecting Fury gain and running off for comparison and it was pretty consistent either way.

 

It's also possible that the ranged characters on the team (4 of them) were staying back more than 30' away reducing the bonus, but I thought that they were closer in than that - and if that is the case, then reducing the radius might not be desired because there wouldn't be room for mobs and teammates in the area.

[nicoliy]

Are we close to a live build on tanking changes? I feel like we are down to small tweaks at this point. 

[Wavicle]

29 minutes ago, nicoliy said:

Are we close to a live build on tanking changes? I feel like we are down to small tweaks at this point. 

I don’t think we’ve made much progress at all. AoE heavy tanks were never really in need of much buffing to begin with. So we really haven’t gotten much of anywhere.

[csr]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:18 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

• Burn (the up front AoE) should not ignore radius buffs.
• Burn (the patch) should ignore radius buffs.

How about the other pseudo pets?  Do Lightning Rod, Savage Leap and Spring Attack get radius buffs?  I'm assuming, based upon the Burn info, that they do not.  (None are tagged as Area Effect attacks, despite taking AoE enhancements.)  If they aren't buffed by the Tanker inherent, then it should say so in their descriptions.

 

 

It would also be nice if there was definitive information *somewhere* on every AoE Tankers can get.  Preferably right there in the power description for all powers that don't get the buff.

 

I'd really like people to be able to know such things as whether the burst from hitting a Contaminated foe with single-target Radiation Melee attacks is buffed or not without having to test it or rely on word of mouth.

Edited January 12, 2020 by csr
Typo

[Captain Powerhouse]

Powers that don’t get the buff state so in their description.

 

Powers that summon AoE pets might be complicated, but in general one-offs like spring attack should benefit while lasting patches like burn should not.

I’ll need to double check contamination spread since that’s a weird mechanic.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[csr]

48 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Powers that don’t get the buff state so in their description.

This appears to be true only of those powers that are exceptions to the general rules.  For example: Dark Regeneration doesn't say it isn't buffed.  It's a 20' radius sphere, so it shouldn't be buffed, but where does the information regarding that fact reside?

 

The "Inherents" definition in the Enhancement Screen is still blank, and there doesn't appear to be anywhere during the Character Creation process where the information on the buff is available at all.  The only place I see that is under "Info" in the context menu when you right-click on the Inherent icon in your status tray.  And it doesn't say anything about the arc and radius exceptions, and what it does say is in code-speak.

 

There remains a very large hole in the documentation of the area buff.

Edited January 12, 2020 by csr

[csr]

14 hours ago, Replacement said:

That's the killing question, huh?  Not on Kinetic melee... I've been enjoying melee cones like Jacob's Ladder that I would normally strongly consider skipping. I'm no expert on "average" expectations for aoe, but it feels to me like kinetic and energy melee aren't set up to benefit. I liked staff.

Kinetic Melee benefits greatly from the buffs due to the massive area of Repulsing Torrent (it has the second largest area of any power affected by the buff, behind only Wall of Force, and more than 30% larger than the next closest).  Burst having a 12' radius instead of 8' is pretty substantial as well.

Edited January 12, 2020 by csr
Incorrect info, updated for CP's clarification

[csr]

Is there any concern over the hit to low level solo play that this patch entails?  Due to the DS increase not completely factoring in until level 20, the loss of Bruising results in reduced ST damage for Tankers below level 15 or so.  In my opinion the solo leveling experience of Tankers is actually worse on Pineapple until about level 20.  Basically, until you have enough defenses and END to really benefit from the AoE buff.  And, of course, you need to actually have AoE.  So some sets see no benefit until substantially later.  Meaning that they don't make up for the slower low level experience for some time.  Stone Melee, for example, probably doesn't match the Live solo experience until around level 30.

 

Of course, so many people don't actually play at low levels that it is probably only an issue for true newbies.  Still, it bothers me as a game design issue that you are actually making one of the problems with Tankers worse with this patch.

[Replacement]

34 minutes ago, csr said:

Is there any concern over the hit to low level solo play that this patch entails?  Due to the DS increase not completely factoring in until level 20, the loss of Bruising results in reduced ST damage for Tankers below level 15 or so.  In my opinion the solo leveling experience of Tankers is actually worse on Pineapple until about level 20.  Basically, until you have enough defenses and END to really benefit from the AoE buff.  And, of course, you need to actually have AoE.  So some sets see no benefit until substantially later.  Meaning that they don't make up for the slower low level experience for some time.  Stone Melee, for example, probably doesn't match the Live solo experience until around level 30.

 

Of course, so many people don't actually play at low levels that it is probably only an issue for true newbies.  Still, it bothers me as a game design issue that you are actually making one of the problems with Tankers worse with this patch.

This is curious.  I tend to have the same view, but I am finding my own biases kick in at 17-22 (which is why I'm still absolutely a proponent of allowing Shops to sell SO enhancements starting at 20 instead of 25).  My knee-jerk is to say "those are the levels that don't even matter" but a lot of folks (e.g. those who think a character "counts" until it's 50 -- even if they PL'd it there in 2 hours) would say this same thing about my play speed.

 

I think a compromising position is the Controller benchmark.  Controllers are ludicrously ineffectual (solo) at low levels.  If a Tanker can at least keep up with them until the tanker buffs begin to sing, I feel like that is sufficient.

 

EDIT: I haven't soloed a Controller since pre-Snap, and it's possible I had only done it with weak combos.  Feel free to submit your own benchmarks.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Replacement

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, csr said:

It's a 20' radius sphere, so it shouldn't be buffed, but where does the information regarding that fact reside?

The 15’ rule is a design choice, and currently only being applied to melee set attack powers. It was only stated in this discussion since it was relevant for the testing phase, but the power description is all players should look at when trying to determine if a power is or isn’t ignoring the buff.

 

I’ll double check dark regen when I have time, though, to make sure it isn’t ignoring +recharge, or or it is, it states so.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

I think a compromising position is the Controller benchmark.  Controllers are ludicrously ineffectual (solo) at low levels.  If a Tanker can at least keep up with them until the tanker buffs begin to sing, I feel like that is sufficient.

I can't imagine these changes are going to make Tankers worse at soloing than Controllers at low levels, since Tankers actually get attacks.

[csr]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

This is curious.  I tend to have the same view, but I am finding my own biases kick in at 17-22 (which is why I'm still absolutely a proponent of allowing Shops to sell SO enhancements starting at 20 instead of 25).  My knee-jerk is to say "those are the levels that don't even matter" but a lot of folks (e.g. those who think a character "counts" until it's 50 -- even if they PL'd it there in 2 hours) would say this same thing about my play speed.

 

I think a compromising position is the Controller benchmark.  Controllers are ludicrously ineffectual (solo) at low levels.  If a Tanker can at least keep up with them until the tanker buffs begin to sing, I feel like that is sufficient.

 

EDIT: I haven't soloed a Controller since pre-Snap, and it's possible I had only done it with weak combos.  Feel free to submit your own benchmarks.

You're right that Tankers solo as well or better than most Controllers at low levels.  But to me that just means Controllers need some sort of low level buff as well.  Maybe Brawl simply needs to be improved for everyone so that those who are short on attacks can slot it out as an attack without completely wasting slots.  I wonder if it would be OP, given that it costs no END, if it observed the DS as a function of Recharge time rule?  Maybe lower its Recharge to 1.5s if so.

 

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The 15’ rule is a design choice, and currently only being applied to melee set attack powers. It was only stated in this discussion since it was relevant for the testing phase, but the power description is all players should look at when trying to determine if a power is or isn’t ignoring the buff.

 

I’ll double check dark regen when I have time, though, to make sure it isn’t ignoring +recharge, or or it is, it states so.

Excellent news.  I, and I believe many others, were laboring under a misperception.

 

I don't know if Dark Regen is an issue or not; I haven't tested it in months.  There were some Pool powers I had tested that weren't getting the buff before, but are now (Whirlwind and Takeoff).  Hopefully you've got everything with the exception of the weirdness of pseudo-pets and such.

 

I don't see a single Pool power that is marked as ignoring the buff.  Nor a single Epic.  So, Tanker Leadership is a 90' radius?  Provoke 22.5'?  Fire Ball, Dark Obliteration, etc at 22.5'?  Darkest Night a massive 37.5'?

 

As an aside:  These are really hard to test.  Spring Attack doesn't even give me combat spam, so it's useless testing it on the dummies.

Edited January 12, 2020 by csr

[Wavicle]

Tankers aren't going to have any more trouble soloing the low levels than they did before.  The difficulty Tankers currently have in the low levels is lack of AoE taunt and lack of self defense when trying to tank for teams.