Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[Super Atom]

The updates to tanks is all positive, I just don't think its all the answers. I think another root problem is armor set T9's (with the exception of Bio/Rad armor). T9's were going to get reworked and i think that would be a good next step.

[Captain Powerhouse]

17 minutes ago, Moka said:

What does self damage mean? Is that the damage % scale or the modifiers?

 

It just means build up is back to what it was like on live (80%)

 

15 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Which tbh is probably likely because they word stuff weirdly, did they not just lower fury generation?

 

Last patch added a bonus to fury generation in teams, based the number of team mates close to you. This has been toned down a bit on this patch.

[Wavicle]

Would it be too unfair to remove crashes from Tier 9 defenses ONLY FOR TANKS and not for any other AT that gets them?

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Would it be too unfair to remove crashes from Tier 9 defenses ONLY FOR TANKS and not for any other AT that gets them?

To be totally honest with you, the glimpse we got of their ideas for the new T9's would make cottage rule purists upset. Look to rad armor for how they should be adjusted.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Super Atom
changed a word

[Captain Powerhouse]

Just now, sacredlunatic said:

Would it be too unfair to remove crashes from Tier 9 defenses ONLY FOR TANKS and not for any other AT that gets them?

 

Yes it would be. Also, T9s are pretty much a topic to be tackled some other time.

[Replacement]

I'm unclear on the how and why of the taunt aura changes.

 

I understand pulling taunt out of ice auras because Gauntlet can do the talking but that raises 2 questions:

• Why are the other mentioned auras getting different treatment?
• Doesn't this mean the ice auras will lose the ability to slot taunt sets?

I have a feeling I'm missing something fundamental about the designs of these powers or maybe the sets overall (normalising how many taunt sets a given primary can provide? Were already set up with unenhancable taunt?)

Edited January 7, 2020 by Replacement

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

Implying that something is OP because of teammates will immediately make every ability need a nerf.

 

Failure to logic, here. The argument was that something CAN'T be OP just because it may require teammates, and I disagreed with the basic premise of that argument. I did present silly numbers, of course, because sometimes the direction that an argument is taking is easier to see when extended further. But the basic premise is still there: it should be possible for a power to be OP even if it requires teammates either to work or to be OP, but by your argument if a power requires teammates to work or to be OP, then it can't be considered OP. Which is an incorrect argument to try to support. Regardless of Brawl, or Vengeance, or other examples used to burn down straws or other materials... the idea of saying that powers don't need to be balanced if they require teammates is something that any designer will laugh at if they're working on any teaming game.

[Captain Powerhouse]

26 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I'm unclear on the how and why of the taunt aura changes.

 

It is only an implementation change, and only mentioned because you will no longer see Taunt as an attribute on the power (it will now be injected as a global proc.)

 

You still will be able to slot taunt on the tanker and brute versions. Taunt auras never allowed Taunt Sets, though.

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

It is only an implementation change, and only mentioned because you will no longer see Taunt as an attribute on the power (it will now be injected as a global proc.)

 

You still will be able to slot taunt on the tanker and brute versions. Taunt auras never allowed Taunt Sets, though.

Appreciated.  I don't understand this part, though:

Quote

The following Taunt Auras are now all scale 1 Taunt (approximately 13.6s at level 50):

• Invincibility, Against All Odds, Rise to the Challenge (Brute and Tank only).

Is there a reason these are having the taunt fixed in their current power entries instead of removed and replaced with the new Gauntlet?

 

A simple "we didn't get around to it" is fine.  I'm just wondering if there's something weird about these powers that they have to be handled differently.

[Super Atom]

13 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Failure to logic, here. The argument was that something CAN'T be OP just because it may require teammates, and I disagreed with the basic premise of that argument. I did present silly numbers, of course, because sometimes the direction that an argument is taking is easier to see when extended further. But the basic premise is still there: it should be possible for a power to be OP even if it requires teammates either to work or to be OP, but by your argument if a power requires teammates to work or to be OP, then it can't be considered OP. Which is an incorrect argument to try to support. Regardless of Brawl, or Vengeance, or other examples used to burn down straws or other materials... the idea of saying that powers don't need to be balanced if they require teammates is something that any designer will laugh at if they're working on any teaming game.

I'm trying real hard to read through what you just typed as it's mostly incoherent rambling but... I never said anything could or couldn't be OP based on any situations. I only said their damage cap was not broken. I said to reach it, you needed teammates or reds. Not that reaching it was OP or not OP. I never said most of what you're suggesting other than If you take City of Heroes team buffs into account for how an ability is balanced then you're doing it wrong.

 

Also, we're taking away from the thread and should take this to private if you'd like to continue.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Super Atom

[AlienMafia]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Appreciated.  I don't understand this part, though:

Is there a reason these are having the taunt fixed in their current power entries instead of removed and replaced with the new Gauntlet?

 

A simple "we didn't get around to it" is fine.  I'm just wondering if there's something weird about these powers that they have to be handled differently.

Because there is no hit check since they dont do damage. This is done to make it equal in taunting to the other sets

[Captain Powerhouse]

As a rule, an aura that:

• Self buffs
• Is Auto Hit
• Only applies -ToHit on the target

Will apply taunt for anyone, even if they are not a tank. Due to this, these powers get built-in taunt, and should not be triggering the GlobalProc taunt.

[Replacement]

6 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As a rule, an aura that:

• Self buffs
• Is Auto Hit
• Only applies -ToHit on the target

Will apply taunt for anyone, even if they are not a tank. Due to this, these powers get built-in taunt, and should not be triggering the GlobalProc taunt.

That bolded one is weird, but I guess it explains Chilling Embrace, though not Icicles. I'm... starting to confuse myself on this and I'm going to go lay down.

 

No matter which side of consistency we fall on, I'm happy with end result: some normalized taunt values, including Rise to the Challenge, and thanks for the correction on the Taunt sets.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Replacement

[Vanden]

While I still feel that there are some sets (*cough* Super Strength) that gain no or limited benefit from the Tanker changes and deserve some individual attention, at least the changes don’t end up being a nerf now.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Any mention of farming or self capping damage is a distraction.  The discussion is about Brute and Tank relative performance IN TEAMS in actual content.

Excellent post.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Would it be too unfair to remove crashes from Tier 9 defenses ONLY FOR TANKS and not for any other AT that gets them?

Would probably require nerfing the T9s.  But tbh even reduced to Willpower SOW like levels it would be better than now.

 

SOW has a small crash, but I think that's what you are basically suggesting

[Infinitum]

32 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Would probably require nerfing the T9s.  But tbh even reduced to Willpower SOW like levels it would be better than now.

 

SOW has a small crash, but I think that's what you are basically suggesting

Yeah plus you really don't need any t9 when melee hybrid exists anyway.

 

But.

 

SOW and OWTS are useful enough to take as emergency powers should you ever need them.

 

You can build high enough without them but there are a few isolated instances where they come in handy.

 

Powers like unstoppable are largely useless because of the crash and perhaps should be tinkered with eventually so more people would choose them.

 

As it is now I would never take an unstoppable like power on a tank or any melee type becausr the crash is a potentially unnecessary death sentence that you otherwise would rarely need to risk in the first place.

 

And I know there are tricky ways to mitigate the crashes too, but again...

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah plus you really don't need any t9 when melee hybrid exists anyway.

 

But.

 

SOW and OWTS are useful enough to take as emergency powers should you ever need them.

 

You can build high enough without them but there are a few isolated instances where they come in handy.

 

Powers like unstoppable are largely useless because of the crash and perhaps should be tinkered with eventually so more people would choose them.

 

As it is now I would never take an unstoppable like power on a tank or any melee type becausr the crash is a potentially unnecessary death sentence that you otherwise would rarely need to risk in the first place.

 

And I know there are tricky ways to mitigate the crashes too, but again...

 

 

the worst is probably SR 

 

You go from 55ish Defense to all to 100ish Defense to all

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

the worst is probably SR 

 

You go from 55ish Defense to all to 100ish Defense to all

But...but...the travel!

 

Edit to add: Ninjitsu has a similar problem, but at least it gets some defense debuff resistance out of it.

Edited January 8, 2020 by siolfir

[ironjoe]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

While I still feel that there are some sets (*cough* Super Strength) that gain no or limited benefit from the Tanker changes and deserve some individual attention, at least the changes don’t end up being a nerf now.

I think the only thing really boosted with damage for Super Strength now on Beta is Jab. I'm not seeing an increase for anything else without using Against All Odds which I think gets me 5% more damage than live but I will need to try that out more later to make sure I'm keeping both scenarios the same.

[Rathulfr]

8 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Sorry but as it feels like my feedback is being ignored, I will no longer participate in these tests and discussions.

Mine is too, so I will sulk with you. 😋

[agentx5]

7 hours ago, Replacement said:

@Super Atom please read prior threads about why this minor nerf is necessary.

 

If you really believe players won't hit this cap, then you won't have a problem with the new value.

 

Meanwhile, the alternative is giving Blasters a 90% damage resist cap (and probably a boost to the strength of their epic armors too).

I don't want damage resist as a Blaster, I want to be killing them all faster than they can attack me in return. Hardcore offense. 500%. CAN HAZ MOAR DAMAGE NAO PLZ?!

[skoryy]

Just in time for the big server crush on Saturday too!  Fantastic, my tank will be ready!

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, ironjoe said:

I think the only thing really boosted with damage for Super Strength now on Beta is Jab. I'm not seeing an increase for anything else without using Against All Odds which I think gets me 5% more damage than live but I will need to try that out more later to make sure I'm keeping both scenarios the same.

Rage would be different, thus the boost would show up there. 

 

 

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Rage would be different, thus the boost would show up there. 

 

 

Rage changes have been rolled back; IIRC @Captain Powerhouse said that Super Strength is getting a separate pass later.