Finish the last four incarnates with awesome uber powerz! (with some ideas)

[sindyr]

Pardon the l33t speak in the title, but one thing I would love to see the last four Incarnate slots Genesis, Mind, Vitae and Omega filled out with even more awesome abilities than the previous six.

 

Some possible ideas (probably bad ones) off the top of my head:

 

• Genesis - gives 2, 3, 4, or 5 more slots to be used on one category of power only:
  • Incendiary - gain more slots to allocate to damage dealing powers
  • Palliative - gain more slots to allocate to healing and support powers
  • Obdurate - gain more slots to allocate to defense and resistance powers 
  • Manipulative - gain more slots to allocate to control powers
  • Leadership - gain more slots to allocate to buff/debuff powers

 

• Mind - another boost like Alpha, additive with Alpha, but only for a power subset, not all powers. 
  • Battle-tested - gain a damage and/or a minor recharge and recovery buff to damage dealing powers
  • Medic - gain a buff to healing and support powers, and/or a recharge buff for those powers too
  • Discipline - gain def/res buffs to defense and resistance powers, and/or an a significant recovery buff
  • Charisma - gain +1 magnitude and/or extra recharge to control powers
  • Nobility - gain stronger buffs and debuffs and/or a significant recovery buff to buff/debuff powers

 

• Vitae - up to complete immunity at Tier Four from some common threats:
  • up to immunity to Smashing/Lethal damage
  • up to immunity to Fire/Cold AND debuff effects
  • up to immunity to Energy/Neg Energy, Knockback, and Immobilization
  • up to immunity to Toxic, Psionic, untyped damage ("everything else"), and all other control effects

 

• Omega - as you use a certain subset of your powers, you fill a ring around this power, at a rate similar to the speed Domination grows. (For balancing this ring might need to refill a lot slower, testing will tell. Hopefully the ring does NOT reset when logging off. And when the ring is full, you can use this power, which empties the ring again. Recharge on this power is something like seven minutes and is not affected by recharge buffs. Also, the powers affected by the Omega slot cannot miss during the minute it is active.
  • Nihilus: damage dealing powers fill the ring. When activated this power makes all your damage dealing powers do an insane amount of damage for one full minute. At tier four, any (non aura) damage dealing power at all is enough to one shot a boss, three shot an EB, and twenty shot an AV or GM.
  • Anima: healing (life or end) powers fill the ring. When activated this power makes all your healing powers fully heal their target in a single application, leaving an immunity to all forms of damage and control for 30 seconds (at tier 4). This state lasts for one minute.
  • Dominus: control powers fill the ring. When activated this power (at tier 4) makes all your control powers work regardless of magnitude, for a duration of a full minute. The state of being able to cast such strong controls lasts for one minute.
  • Prometheus: Buff powers fill the ring. When activated, makes all buffs much stronger for one minute. Any buff cast during that time has a minimum duration of one minute, and a buff of triple what it would normally do (at tier 4) - not triple the base, triple the normal effect.
  • Malus: Debuff powers fill the ring. When activated, makes all debuffs much stronger for one minute. Any debuff cast during that time has a minimum duration of one minute, and the debuff lowers the quantity affected to the lowest possible level (at tier 4).

 

Now I am sure that the ideas need work - they may even be unworkable - but I would love to see and use the last four incarnate powers, and find out they are even more powerful than the first six!

 

Are there any tentative plans to work on the next four Incarnate slots?

[Monos King]

I was reading up on the live developers AMAs, and the intentions of the actual last 4 incarnate slots were gonna be way stronger than even what you just proposed. I'd really like getting them.

Unfortunately, even the incarnates we have now are essentially game breaking, and along with these new powers we'd need scores of difficult content to offset how literally everything not incarnate would become a bug. This would likely include new zones and task forces and of course incarnate trials to actually unlock the slots. It's a lot of work and almost certainly can't happen.

For now anyway.

[Haijinx]

Presumably there was going to be content that you would be able to fight with all that extra power. 

 

[boggo2300]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Presumably there was going to be content that you would be able to fight with all that extra power. 

 

of course not, there's the danger it would be scaled to be challenging!

[Force Redux]

7 hours ago, monos1 said:

I was reading up on the live developers AMAs, and the intentions of the actual last 4 incarnate slots were gonna be way stronger than even what you just proposed. I'd really like getting them.

Unfortunately, even the incarnates we have now are essentially game breaking, and along with these new powers we'd need scores of difficult content to offset how literally everything not incarnate would become a bug. This would likely include new zones and task forces and of course incarnate trials to actually unlock the slots. It's a lot of work and almost certainly can't happen.

For now anyway.

It would be interesting and perhaps easier to balance if the last 4 incarnate abilities only worked during specific new trials or incarnate content. 

[Menelruin]

Can I make a minor suggestion for one of them?  I know it might be less interesting to have fewer flavors, but I thought it'd be cool to have a particular Incarnate slot that just altered/magnified your AT's Inherent to some insane degree.  Like Brutes temporarily get even MORE damage from Fury, Domination raises up the Magnitude another notch, Scrappers start critting for TRIPLE damage for a bit, etc.

[Menelruin]

It's also interesting how we basically get an Incarnate slot for almost every "type" of power.  We get...

 

A passive

A summon

An attack (and, potentially, an AoE debuff)

A proc

A buff/support

A toggle

 

What other "styles" of powers are there, not mimicked by Incarnates?  An AoE hold of some sort?  An uber, single-target attack/debuff?  Maybe a toggle you can keep always on with a minor buff, but also a travel effect?  Something with a self-rez component?  Maybe an enemy-targeting debuff toggle, akin to what Rad Emission has?

Edited January 9, 2020 by Menelruin

[Menelruin]

Oh, how about this?  Another toggle, kinda like Assault, but it adds a little damage to EVERY power you use on enemies, but then the different kinds just determine the type?

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Menelruin said:

Can I make a minor suggestion for one of them?  I know it might be less interesting to have fewer flavors, but I thought it'd be cool to have a particular Incarnate slot that just altered/magnified your AT's Inherent to some insane degree.  Like Brutes temporarily get even MORE damage from Fury, Domination raises up the Magnitude another notch, Scrappers start critting for TRIPLE damage for a bit, etc.

See now THIS I'd like. It'd be like each AT has their Moment of Glory. Literally. 😁

[DrRocket]

I think the incarnate powers as they are provides incredible capability to any Archtype, which has the effect of making your character actually feel rather super in general. Adding more incarnate powers, would be cool, but would there be a chance that our super characters be a bit too super?

 

There are many thoughts in my mind on how to make an Archtype better, but truly what is the end goal?

 

Is it that any Archtype through the appropriate incarnate slotting can do anything as any other archtype can? I think we are almost there already, in fact.

 

What would be next to improve?

 

Give tank devastating ranged attacks, even a snipe?

Give support types inherent status effect protections? Even though they can get "temporary" meaningful protection already through the destiny slot?

 

A real risk with the incarnate system is that with any archtype being able to essentially do anything, is that it may be blending them in such a way that differentiation becomes difficult. Let me take a Brute for example, you can truly boost their damage (making blasters a bit redundant as proven by farmers every day), you can also choose to make their Status Effects much more powerful that they can easily rival a controller, all through incarnate slotting. Adding more boosters, would make this blurring across teh lines even that much heavier, i would fear.

 

V/R

[sindyr]

1 hour ago, DrRocket said:

Adding more incarnate powers, would be cool, but would there be a chance that our super characters be a bit too super?

 

<....>

 

A real risk with the incarnate system is that with any archtype being able to essentially do anything, is that it may be blending them in such a way that differentiation becomes difficult. Let me take a Brute for example, you can truly boost their damage (making blasters a bit redundant as proven by farmers every day), you can also choose to make their Status Effects much more powerful that they can easily rival a controller, all through incarnate slotting. Adding more boosters, would make this blurring across teh lines even that much heavier, i would fear.

Well, I for one WANT to be TOO super. I want to be in the middle of a fight and laughing hysterically at how much pwnage I am delivering.

I would love for a finished Incarnate to be able to stand toe to toe with a GM or AV on equal footing - not the way some extreme builds do now, but on their OWN level, trading equal blows. In essence, I want a full incarnate to BE an AV or GM!

But I get your concern with the ATs losing their flavor if they can do too much that is out of their general theme. That's why I focused my ideas often on having the last four incarnates buff only subsets of one's powers. Perhaps instead of it being a choice which subset it affects, it is instead based on your AT somehow.

[Monos King]

5 hours ago, Force Redux said:

It would be interesting and perhaps easier to balance if the last 4 incarnate abilities only worked during specific new trials or incarnate content. 

Yeah but that would be lame though.

[Menelruin]

I always imagined it as the end goal, becoming a FULLY REALIZED incarnate, would put you on equal footing with any of those who got their powers straight from the well (Statesman, Hero 1, Recluse, etc).  They took a shortcut, you took the long road....but you should end at the same place ultimately. 

 

Also, I imagine it as at the end, you'd basically become one of those God-mode characters in comics who basically transcend archetype, like Martian Manhunter or something.  You start out as a lowly Daredevil scrapper, and at the end of your long, hard road, you've ascended to become Silver Surfer, basically able to do anything, because you damn well EARNED that power.

[Jaegernault]

new difficulty can come in something as simple as having a new level shift difficulty, like in DA, imagine being lvl 51 and fighting lvl 57s! on +4*8 (+3) the additional level shift would pust thier inherant ToHit bonus to around 60%ish, their damage would scale, could even add a new boss to each group that has Destiny and Judgment Incarnate powers to make them almost player like enemy!

[Monos King]

7 hours ago, Menelruin said:

like Martian Manhunter or something. 

Did you mean Dr. Manhattan 

[Jaegernault]

Martian Manhunter is from DC Justice League, Dr Manhatten is from The Watchmen and far cooler!

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, Jaegernault said:

Martian Manhunter is from DC Justice League, Dr Manhatten is from The Watchmen and far cooler!

Dr Manhattan is the DC Alt continuity Expy of DC purchased Charlton Comics Captain Atom who was a Expy of DC Superman. 

 

Say that 5 times fast! 

 

[Monos King]

@Jaegernault @Haijinx I'm aware, and I mentioned Manhattan because Martian Manhunter is definitely not some transcendent character.

[oedipus_tex]

I have to admit I do not get excited about the possibility of more incarnate abilities. 

 

The one incarnate ability that I currently really enjoy is the Alpha slot. The Alpha slot adds a lot of complexity to build design and is very interesting. More importantly, the Alpha slot feels integrated strongly with the character.

 

My least favorite incarnate ability is Judgment. To me Judgment feels like a temporary power. There's no strategic decision making, no integration with the rest of the character's abilities, its just a generic attack everyone gets. Rather than feel powerful, to me it makes the rest of my character feel weak. It's the like the relationship I have with the Nemesis Staff. "Here's this generic power that's tons better than your character's 'real' powers you agonized over." That's just how I feel.

 

New abilities that was part of new content I would not object to of course. 

[Haijinx]

13 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I have to admit I do not get excited about the possibility of more incarnate abilities. 

 

The one incarnate ability that I currently really enjoy is the Alpha slot. The Alpha slot adds a lot of complexity to build design and is very interesting. More importantly, the Alpha slot feels integrated strongly with the character.

 

My least favorite incarnate ability is Judgment. To me Judgment feels like a temporary power. There's no strategic decision making, no integration with the rest of the character's abilities, its just a generic attack everyone gets. Rather than feel powerful, to me it makes the rest of my character feel weak. It's the like the relationship I have with the Nemesis Staff. "Here's this generic power that's tons better than your character's 'real' powers you agonized over." That's just how I feel.

 

New abilities that was part of new content I would not object to of course. 

Pretty much 

 

I was disappointed by everything except alpha 

[Menelruin]

I went Martian Manhunter as a swiss-army-knife character who covers even more ATs than Superman.

[Haijinx]

23 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

I went Martian Manhunter as a swiss-army-knife character who covers even more ATs than Superman.

Plus because of strange continuity stuff he is kinda dating his niece. 

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Plus because of strange continuity stuff he is kinda dating his niece. 

kinda like DC's Penny Yin

[quixoteprog]

Without content to match this it would only serve to make a very easy game incredibly easy. The current ITF trials and such all seem to be designed to challenge people WITHOUT Incarnate slots unlocked and level shifts. People routinely run missions set at +4/x8 NOW.

 

The progression should be something like, design content that people CAN'T do, and THEN give them powers that allow them to complete that content. That would give us a sense of progression and accomplishment at having overcome adversaries.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I have to admit I do not get excited about the possibility of more incarnate abilities. 

 

The one incarnate ability that I currently really enjoy is the Alpha slot. The Alpha slot adds a lot of complexity to build design and is very interesting. More importantly, the Alpha slot feels integrated strongly with the character.

 

My least favorite incarnate ability is Judgment. To me Judgment feels like a temporary power. There's no strategic decision making, no integration with the rest of the character's abilities, its just a generic attack everyone gets. Rather than feel powerful, to me it makes the rest of my character feel weak. It's the like the relationship I have with the Nemesis Staff. "Here's this generic power that's tons better than your character's 'real' powers you agonized over." That's just how I feel.

 

New abilities that was part of new content I would not object to of course. 

I think the 4 most important incarnate abilities in order of importance are

 

1. Hybrid - It's basically a T9 with no penalty and faster recharge. It also has an auto - always on buff.

 

2. Alpha - real good buffs always on.

 

3. Destiny - I use it as a prop or filler for where I may be slightly deficient or for the recharge in ageless for instance.  Good team buff though.

 

4. Judgement - it's not totally without strategy void for instance does - damage mighty does massive Knock up.

 

5. Interface - cool but hard to notice its effect

 

6. Lore - very cool but gimmicky.