Revisit the Energy Melee nerfs

[ChocolateMercenary]

17 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

There's performance and then there's preference.  If your preference is more angled toward meta-game measures, it's probably best to understand that circumstance moreso than performance overall.  Personally, I don't see EM as that bad, especially if you like mezzing things as a melee.  If that isn't your cup of tea, making it into something else entirely is a measure different than making it more palpable for more varied styles.

 

I can understand the desire to push a build into meta territory but that isn't and shouldn't be the goal of changes.

EM is terrible, but it doesn't need much to fix. It  doesn't need heaps on AoE. I'm with you there. It needs a T8/T9 that isn't worthless. Maybe a small cone somewhere. It does need much to make it usefully good. We don't need OP. EM doesn't need a weird gimmick. We don't need all the procs in the world, I'm with you there. We just want better.

[Troo]

32 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

32 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Personally, I don't see EM as that bad, especially if you like mezzing things as a melee.

Then this is probably not the thread for you.

I love the stuns. Currently, one of Energy Melee's basic flaws is animation time related to just a couple attacks. Energy Melee may not need to be overhauled or completely reworked.

 

If Energy Transfer and Total Focus were suddenly 1 second animations, how popular would Energy Melee be?

 

No crazy development needed, no new animations, no absurd mechanics, no worrying about AoE parity. Simple.

 

Overpowered? Maybe.

Though this demonstrates how simplistic the issue is. That one current flaw creates a very frustrating game experience where players end up wasting attacks and resources on corpses.

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Troo

[marcussmythe]

21 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And why would you assume that?

Well, the thread title assumes it needs some attention, and you seem opposed to giving it very much.  “Not that Bad”, implies a small fix will do it.

 

I suppose I am unfair; and you are here as a serious advocate that the set is mostly fine as it is, and only minor tweaking is needed to make it mathematically competitive in the game as it exists.

[marcussmythe]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

I love the stuns. Currently, one of Energy Melee's basic flaws is animation time related to just a couple attacks. Energy Melee may not need to be overhauled or completely reworked.

 

If Energy Transfer and Total Focus were suddenly 1 second animations, how popular would Energy Melee be?

 

No crazy development needed, no new animations, no absurd mechanics, no worrying about AoE parity. Simple.

 

Overpowered? Maybe.

Though this demonstrates how simplistic the issue is. That one current flaw creates a very frustrating game experience where players end up wasting attacks and resources on corpses.

 

Medium popular, I reckon. Its still strictly the worst at AOE under that math, and as discussed 95 % of the game is AOE.  However, that would increase single target output radically - to the point of outperforming War Mace and I think TW in that role. (Ignoring TWs - Res built in and proc advatages - but maybe even then.)

[Leogunner]

Just now, marcussmythe said:

Well, the thread title assumes it needs some attention, and you seem opposed to giving it very much.  “Not that Bad”, implies a small fix will do it.

 

I suppose I am unfair; and you are here as a serious advocate that the set is mostly fine as it is, and only minor tweaking is needed to make it mathematically competitive in the game as it exists.

"Not that bad" is in the context that posters are saying it's unplayable, terrible, ugly and irredeemable.  I just think it's niche and maybe a bit slow.

 

I am here to express my opinion and that is some people are requesting to add more AoE to other attacks of the set while others are saying keep it ST focused and they don't like gimmicks.  I feel I'm somewhat in the middle.  I don't want more AoE attacks added in but I think putting in the Charge effect from Energy Assault to make Whirling Hands a situationally stronger AoE is a good middle ground in the aspect of AoE.  I am also one that enjoys the current animation of ET although I could see shaving its animation time down a bit (and TF).  I'd also advocate for reducing the cast time of Stun, and slightly reduce the END and rech but keep everything else about it the same (a slightly more available mez tool that can be skipped).  If there is a problem with stun IOs, you can make a suggestion elsewhere adding a unique or proc to a low level stun set (and add a set bonus at the end) but that is more an argument for IOs and not Energy Melee.

 

If the set doesn't end up as high-end meta with massive proc potential coming out of the change, I'm okay with that...in fact, I'd prefer that.

[marcussmythe]

I am a much simpler creature - I rolled EM because it was the best tool available to a tank for standing up and punching out really hard targets.  As a comic book reader, I always found the ‘Stopor Guy fights Thanocide for an hour, cant crack his regen, goes home’ aspect of CoH rather troubling - so I wanted something that got around that, and I had that, until the ‘Cottage’ that was Energy Melee got turned into a slightly leaky tent.

 

So long as what comes out the back is that cottage, I dont much care how we get there.  Proc friendly or not?  Whatever.  Reduced Animations vs Wierdo Mechanics vs. Raw Numbers?  Im easy.  ‘New’ approaches, likely slowly but eternally building -Res and/or -Regen?  That would be different, and avoid the big spikes that damned the set originally.

 

As long as Energy Melee is the set for big game hunting, I’ll be satisfied.  Likely other people have other priorities - Im strange.  🙂

[Troo]

17 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Medium popular, I reckon.

If this is these case why wouldn't we do this asap and see how it goes?

 

Personally, I think that even Energy Transfer with a 1 second animation and Total Focus with a 1.5 second animation would absolutely equal FOTM.

Every other wish list would point to it with "why can't we have that?!" and "nerf that!!"

Backing it off a bit further to 1 sec and 2 sec would still be a dream for many.

[marcussmythe]

It would be FOTM for hard target hunting/head hunting as melee (Though as to if it would outperform the real giant killers such as Illusion/Traps, etc, or the real DPS monsters like Thugs MMs, is another question and one we probably know the answer to).  But in the broaders sense - you just dont spend that much time in COH going 'Well, I cant punch out an AV, so despite my ability to murder the entire room of minions and normal bosses in seconds, I am dissatisfied'.  ((Well, unless you are me)).

 

I mean, if it ends up more popular than Fire Brutes and TW Whatever, then we can tune it back.

 

'Why wouldnt we do this ASAP'?  Well, because you and I dont make the decisions here.  🙂  This whole thread is probalby meaningless - I anticipate that the Devs worked out their fixes internally based on their own sense of things, without reference to anything we write on the forums (they have better things to do with their time than read these forums!)

[tidge]

It's been a while since I posted in the thread. I've been trying to sprinkle 'likes' on the posts which match my views:

1. I don't need (or want) AoE in Energy Melee. There are enough other sets for that. If I want pom poms on another set, it's one visit to the Tailor/Facemaker.
2. I don't want any new extra mechanics. No "splashes". No "combos". No "stacking" (except for existing Stuns), keep reading.
3. I like the Stuns and I would sacrifice them in PvP to keep things 'balanced', if that is even an issue any more.
4. I want the classic set returned to single-target dominance. I'm ok if the set has to have some balancing for Stalkers v. Tanks, but honestly in a game with Titan Weapons, I'm not sure I'd care if Energy Melee Stalkers became the dominant ST class, as you can only defeat a mob once. (Freakshow, CoT, Valkyrie, et al. not withstanding)

I'm open to discussions on how to achieve #4. I don't know if "cranking up the DPA" is the fix. At the risk of breaking my #2, I don't know if adding a -Res to the EM attacks would have the same effect (and be a rationale for not adding AoE) given the Purple patch. Like I wrote... I'm open to how to get to #4.

 

[marcussmythe]

Tidge - Yes.  Exactly.

 

As I see it, the only ways to get there are:

1.)  Even Bigger Numbers!  (Unlikely, if PvP is a consideration)
2.)  Shorter Animations. (See 1, though less so)

3.)  Stacking -Res (enough to floor a 54 AV/GM given time) (Semi New Mechanics, but fairly easy and harmless to overall balance)

4.)  Stacking -Regen (as in 3 above) (New Mechanics and ‘strange’, but the least dangerous to balance concerns - all it really impacts is AVs and GMs)

 

 

[siolfir]

On 6/19/2020 at 7:42 PM, Leogunner said:

That's probably a good argument for NOT having old ET.  Such an attack is now the niche of Stalker and having that niche also contributes to why Stalkers have that comeback.  Putting that niche out to any melee via EM also really funks up ST focused Stalker sets.  What do we do about Stalker EM, MA, DM, etc?  Give them more AoE?  Uhg, we already have AoE-oriented Stalkers...

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I disagree with the premise that it would take away from Stalkers, though, and it's somewhat different in that a 1 second Energy Transfer doesn't rely on getting stacks of Assassin's Focus to hit that level of performance, it's just there when the power recharges at the cost of some hit points.

 

As for the single-target focused Stalker sets you mentioned, Stalker EM would be directly improved by reverting the ET nerf, at least DM got the debatable benefit of the Shadow Maul change, and while Martial Arts needs help it is currently in a better situation than Energy Melee IMO.

 

On 6/19/2020 at 8:09 PM, aethereal said:

I know, but it feels like the details of Arcanatime are unlikely to make a big difference in how the powersets compare.

Eh... it adds up. Because you always have to wait at least one tick, that's a higher percentage of the DPA on fast-animating attacks than it is on slower ones. The issue with the slower animating attacks is corpse blasting and that misses have a huge impact on your effective DPS, but you lose a lower percentage of the DPA to mandatory dead time; that's why Total Focus is theoretically ahead of Energy Punch and Bone Smasher assuming you attack as fast as the game will let you and never miss.

 

22 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Tidge - Yes.  Exactly.

 

As I see it, the only ways to get there are:

1.)  Even Bigger Numbers!  (Unlikely, if PvP is a consideration)
2.)  Shorter Animations. (See 1, though less so)

3.)  Stacking -Res (enough to floor a 54 AV/GM given time) (Semi New Mechanics, but fairly easy and harmless to overall balance)

4.)  Stacking -Regen (as in 3 above) (New Mechanics and ‘strange’, but the least dangerous to balance concerns - all it really impacts is AVs and GMs)

 

 

Regarding the first point, the PvP damage formula is based off of animation times. Increasing DPA by reducing animation time actually makes the set weaker in PvP, and in any case splitting the effect of powers for PvE and PvP has been possible since before the i13 changes - it's how unresisted PvP damage on criticals was done, for example. To put it simply, there is not and never has been an excuse to use PvP as justification to prevent a PvE only change to a power's effects. But the "even bigger numbers" won't matter unless you're soloing when you're wasting 1500 damage instead of 1000 hitting that corpse on a team.

 

I doubt we'll see #3, since Bruising became such a sticking point in the Tanker changes: @Captain Powerhouse seemed dead set on not allowing it to stack (which was proposed several times as an answer to the question "what does a second Tanker add to a group" question) and honestly, stacking -resistance is one of the more useful effects you can get in the current game.

Edited June 21, 2020 by siolfir
because -> became; didn't notice typo until it was quoted :(

[BrandX]

Hmmm...would giving Barrage -Res, help even it out with Energy Punch?  Not that I care to give EM any other effects, I'm of the "I like the Stuns and like that, that is EM's gimmick" mind, however, I do love the Barrage animation, and while I took it on my EM character, it'd be nice to be equal to EP in terms of use. 🙂

 

I recall doing the math and feeling the one second off of TF and ET (if it was even a whole 1 second, as I picked other animations) would speed up the set (no corpse killing) while improving the ST DPS a whole lot (not sure if it would be number one), but just those two seconds off would improve the set.

 

As it was mentioned, I'm not against MA getting ST DPS looked at.  I do feel if a set loses out in AOE, it should be some of the top ST.  Right now, doesn't that spot generally go to TW?  Not that I want to nerf TW.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

3.)  Stacking -Res (enough to floor a 54 AV/GM given time) (Semi New Mechanics, but fairly easy and harmless to overall balance)

 

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I doubt we'll see #3, since Bruising because such a sticking point in the Tanker changes: @Captain Powerhouse seemed dead set on not allowing it to stack (which was proposed several times as an answer to the question "what does a second Tanker add to a group" question) and honestly, stacking -resistance is one of the more useful effects you can get in the current game.

I definitely remember when we reached that point in the Tanker changes. I don't know if the resistance to -Res was motivated by the prevalence of AoE attacks? I'm sure a lot of the issue is that any one source of -Res doesn't stack with itself.

 

My EM experience is with a Tank. Even with (some) Disorient slotting only occasionally have I gotten enough Magnitude to visibly affect a very tough single-target... I think it was one of the big bad Summer Blockbuster enemies. Even then, that barely provided much of a breather for my arena mates.

 

I keep coming back to the idea that going mano-a-mano with a big bad (with Energy Melee) ought to feel different than just dancing with the big bad after evaporating the others mobs with AoE (as with other sets).

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Eh... it adds up. Because you always have to wait at least one tick, that's a higher percentage of the DPA on fast-animating attacks than it is on slower ones. The issue with the slower animating attacks is corpse blasting and that misses have a huge impact on your effective DPS, but you lose a lower percentage of the DPA to mandatory dead time; that's why Total Focus is theoretically ahead of Energy Punch and Bone Smasher assuming you attack as fast as the game will let you and never miss.

 

Fair enough, and it's easy to add.  I put columns for arcana activation time and arcana DPA into the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wzj1VBlH9NGqAO01Y8QSz4DBBVLzqkQ6aENtaF9bYnI/edit?usp=sharing)

 

You're right that it changes things more than I was imagining.

[marcussmythe]

19 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Fair enough, and it's easy to add.  I put columns for arcana activation time and arcana DPA into the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wzj1VBlH9NGqAO01Y8QSz4DBBVLzqkQ6aENtaF9bYnI/edit?usp=sharing)

 

You're right that it changes things more than I was imagining.

Thank you, Aehteral.  That does help illustrate the issue rather starkly.

[aethereal]

I updated the spreadsheet (still https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wzj1VBlH9NGqAO01Y8QSz4DBBVLzqkQ6aENtaF9bYnI/edit?usp=sharing) to include some information about procs.  It's...  very far from a definitive worksheet for proccing, but hopefully it gives some ideas.  I also have a very janky, much-hand-coding necessary attack chain worksheet.

 

Some commentary:

 

In general, you get pretty close DPS for filled attack chains for these three sets for the values I tried (which was a pretty straightforward, one-proc case, I'm sure not the best possible ones).  Feel free to mess around with the sheet yourself.  My scenarios showed Martial Arts > Energy Melee > War Mace, but by just a few percentage points (with very high levels of global recharge, it might be possible to get a war mace attack chain of just Clobber > Jawbreaker > Pulverize, in which case it would outperform both EM and MA, but it would need a LOT of recharge).  But remember that both sets have better AoE than EM.

 

Either of TF -> 2s animation time or ET -> 1s animation time dramatically improves the EM DPS in the scenarios I tested (again, certainly not the most sophisticated attack chains in the world).

[marcussmythe]

On 6/22/2020 at 11:41 AM, aethereal said:

I updated the spreadsheet (still https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wzj1VBlH9NGqAO01Y8QSz4DBBVLzqkQ6aENtaF9bYnI/edit?usp=sharing) to include some information about procs.  It's...  very far from a definitive worksheet for proccing, but hopefully it gives some ideas.  I also have a very janky, much-hand-coding necessary attack chain worksheet.

 

Some commentary:

 

In general, you get pretty close DPS for filled attack chains for these three sets for the values I tried (which was a pretty straightforward, one-proc case, I'm sure not the best possible ones).  Feel free to mess around with the sheet yourself.  My scenarios showed Martial Arts > Energy Melee > War Mace, but by just a few percentage points (with very high levels of global recharge, it might be possible to get a war mace attack chain of just Clobber > Jawbreaker > Pulverize, in which case it would outperform both EM and MA, but it would need a LOT of recharge).  But remember that both sets have better AoE than EM.

 

Either of TF -> 2s animation time or ET -> 1s animation time dramatically improves the EM DPS in the scenarios I tested (again, certainly not the most sophisticated attack chains in the world).

Thats not in line with what I've seen over on the DPS Spreadsheets - Kael, etc - where WM tends to be a very high performer.  May go to the level of recharge used/assumed?  High global recharge will send War Mace through the roof, as it gets to use that high DPA attack more and more.

Edited June 24, 2020 by marcussmythe

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Thats not in line with what I've seen over on the DPS Spreadsheets - Kael, etc - where WM tends to be a very high performer.  May go to the level of recharge used/assumed?  High global recharge will send War Mace through the roof, as it gets to use that high DPA attack more and more.

Yep, I was trying not to assume super high-end builds, since I don't think that's a useful metric to balance general performance to.  I also don't have epic attacks in here, and the way that epics works is that they benefit more sets that just have one gap.  If all you need is one more great attack to fill your attack chain with great attacks, epics are really good.  If your attack chain is a bunch of mediocre stuff, adding in one epic attack doesn't change things that much.

 

Clobber has a 16 second base recharge time.  With 200% total recharge, it's on a 5.33 second cooldown.  With 300% total recharge (like say 200% global 100% local) it's on a 4 second cooldown.  That still leaves a .3 second gap in the attack chain to get a three-attack chain with Jawbreaker and Pulverize.  So getting a gapless three-attack chain with Jawbreaker and Pulverize takes a TON of recharge, but maybe a four-attack chain with an epic or something is pretty good.

[Haijinx]

Nerf Regen

[nihilii]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Nerf Regen

Nerf Regen through restoring the old ET animation. Faster Energy Transfer = Higher Frequency of ET use = More -HP applied = Effective nerf to regeneration.

[Jimmy]

Just now, nihilii said:

Nerf Regen through restoring the old ET animation. Faster Energy Transfer = Higher Frequency of ET use = More -HP applied = Effective nerf to regeneration.

Excellent point.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I saw the patch today and was excited for a moment that I'd be reading patch notes about improvements to Energy Melee. No such luck.

 

😭

Edited June 24, 2020 by PeregrineFalcon
typo

[Bolt of Purity]

I'll add my voice to the crowd for reducing the animation times to their previous greatness. EM used to be so fast and fun when it was unashamedly ST focused and the best at it, prior to the cast time nerfs. With the meta now steamrolling and AoE nuking everything, to make EM viable in groups again we'd need to either make EM have a bunch of AoE or some fancy mechanic to fit in with everything else or (please do this one 😉) leave it distinct and make it the ST damage king again. There's nothing wrong with having different sets have different flavours, I think most people will be fine with having no AoE on the best ST damage set, it's a common-sense trade-off...

...that being said, I could see the ET animation being set to 1s again (it already has a downside in the -HP) but leaving the TF time as-is while making it have splash damage like Electric Melee's Thunder Strike. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer just a lower cast time for TF and leave it ST but that might be a middle ground? 🙂

[marcussmythe]

On 5/14/2019 at 9:28 AM, Rylas said:

 

Cynical post deleted.

Edited June 25, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Troo]

Is the time upon us?