I can play City of Heroes blindfolded. With my forehead.

[Lines]

To those who want more challenge:

I hear you. But there are good, well meaning suggestions coming from folks on how you might spend your game time. Please do discuss them, explore them, reason with what might and might not mesh with you. Give serious time to the ideas around how you could challenge yourself in the current circumstances of the game and try it. It will not be the path of least resistance and you will be in opposition with the nature of the game, but that's kind of the point. There are examples of challenge within the game. Challenge and Difficulty are nebulous subjects and are hard to put into words, but take the time to reflect on whether your feelings are well communicated.

 

I personally make each character fund themselves (Except for a small loan of 1 million influence), buy only recipes and salvage or use merits to extend the progression of characters for longer. I try not to repeat content on one character, so I make sure it counts when I do. These things do work to help you sustain your interest, but it often means ignoring conventional wisdom and staying away from the status quo.

 

To others:

Please assume that those suggesting that there be more challenge are coming from somewhere well-meaning. Difficulty of the game is an impossibly intricate and incomprehensible topic to understand in its entirety, so please do not take the ways it might affect you personally. It may well be that the ease of the game is unsustainable to maintain a playerbase, as suggested. Or possibly not: we don't have the kind of data to conclude this. But nonetheless, it's a perspective, coming from peoples' experience that is worth taking seriously.

 

Imagine the tables were turned for a moment and CoH was a ubiquitously difficult game (it shouldn't be - but bear with me). You ask on the forums how you can have a more casual time to suit you, but you are just told that it isn't that sort of game, to get good and that if you want a casual experience, run synapse - that's nice and easy. That kind of answer will do very little to nourish you. Surely there are other players like you who would benefit from more casual content.

 

The game should aim to appeal to a wide range of tastes. Please don't assume the motivations of others in this subject. It may come from wanting a sense of superiority, sure. Maybe. But I doubt it. Rock climbers don't train hard to climb impossible cliffs to feel like they're better than people. Nobody plays tough cryptic crosswords or sudoku puzzles to feel like they're better than other people. And certainly few people play goddamn MMOs to feel superior to other people. That's not what challenge and difficulty is about, it comes from somewhere much more intrapersonal and much more humane than that. Games are somewhere we often expect to find challenge and difficulty, so surely it is understandable to get discontent when a game doesn't apparently deliver.

 

I think it's far more likely that it comes from the experience of levelling, progressing and outfitting a character only to find that there is very little to do of value for the character. At least that's what I found and it is a disappointing discovery. I mostly play 1-35ish and I fantasise about what the game could do to make me want to bother progressing onward. If that experience is endemic to many players (again, no data to prove nor disprove this), then it could be something worth developing.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Lines

[DR_Mechano]

19 minutes ago, monos1 said:

Please read my post earlier in this thread. This is really a non-argument, it kind of feels like you are missing the essence of a game itself. Just because you CAN make things arbitrarily and needlessly difficult for yourself is not in anyway a testament to the difficulty Of The Game. The difficulty of the game is a reference to the progression and experience of the play; is it easy to get rewards, are there obstacles. A Challenge Mode is a completely separate feature meant to cater to individuals who are already powerful or skilled and want to attempt something that would be considered impossible or extremely difficult simply for the fun of doing that In. Of. Its. Self. Rewards ignored. It is additional, and the option is by no means evidence of the overall ardor of the game experience. Please stop suggesting things of this nature.

 

Suggesting that the OP and his sympathizers are simply hounding for a vainglorious vision of their own superiority as compared to those that don't run difficult content is also just a baseless accusation, and doesnt even make sense. How would the options for harder gameplay affect any dynamic here? It seems it would just be endgame content; those at the endgame are pretty objectively stronger than those that aren't already.

 

You also just said that these "sort of players" just want to do slightly hard things so they can do what the people beneath them can't, despite the fact changes like the one this thread advocate for would affect all content including that type of upper-mid challenge and make it more difficult too. By your logic, they wouldn't even be able to flaunt anymore. The OP thinks that in this state, the game is less fun because no one really needs (within context of progression and reward) anyone else. He believes that in the instances you do work together, the collaboration of uber gods renders all threats null. You need to see where he is coming from before disparaging, or else compromise never occurs. 

Here's the thing, I've played enough MMOs to know EXACTLY what these kind of players are, you see them in ALL MMOs and 9/10 they are the vainglorious sort that simply wants to be 'better than other people'. These are the sort of people that cried for Heroics to be harder in Cataclysm and when they got genuinely tough heroics, they complained it was too hard and they were nerfed back down again. Contrary to the post above people DO play MMOs to feel better than other people. So often I've seen people use the fact that they raid heroic as to why they're opinion on everything matters more than a player who only does LFR because they're not 'simple casuals'.

 

The thing is if you genuinely want a challenge, if you think that things should be tough, why isn't a challenge mode an option? If you want difficult content then it should be for the sake of it being something difficult to do, rewards be damned. You do it because you can, because it's tough and yet you made it through, the fact that you did it when others couldn't should stand as testament and the only thing you need. The Mythic first raiders don't do it 'for the loot' they do it because they're achieving something incredibly difficult and the recognition they get for achieving it by being the very first to get there. In fact doing it simply because the rewards are better actually makes these sorts of thing kind of pointless, I mean if its just for the rewards then you're not doing it because its something you simply CAN do, it's because you HAVE to and that ain't my mojo baby. Rock climbers don't do it because it makes them better than other people they do it BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

THAT is what challenging content is and that's what its rewards should be. I did Dark Souls 1 fist weapon only runs, SL1 runs, base equipment only runs, whip only runs. Not because I got some reward out of it or it made me feel better than someone who summoned for every boss fight but because I sat there and wondered if I could, my reward was recognition on the Eurogamer forums with me being 'that challenge guy' who people would come to for advice if they were stuck during their own challenge runs.

 

Let's say that CoH was an, inherently difficult game and when asked 'is there things I can do to make this easier' and you got told the usual example of 'git gud or GTFO' from the trolls but you actually got some helpful answers in there as well. In the Souls series games, in the Touhou series of games, the community will help you as much as they can with advice, guides etc. but they can't play the game for you, at some point you're going to have to get some muscle memory going and break through the brickwall infront of you because that's just how the games were designed. CoH is the opposite of that.

Edited January 24, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Fan Mail]

I'd have to slightly agree about the Incarnate stuff making the game easy.  You get a character that has T4 everything Incarnate, fully ATO'ed out, they can blaze through pretty much everything solo.  But it takes some work to get there, even if you are power-leveling through the grind.  

 

But we have a choice.  For example, I choose not to go through with all of the Incarnate material because I'm already pretty powerful.  So...for the most part, I skip it.  I'd rather spend my time leveling up another character that I enjoy playing.  Because that's what I like doing.  To each their own.

[NNDeepdish]

17 minutes ago, tafilr said:

I'd have to slightly agree about the Incarnate stuff making the game easy.  You get a character that has T4 everything Incarnate, fully ATO'ed out, they can blaze through pretty much everything solo.  But it takes some work to get there, even if you are power-leveling through the grind.  

 

But we have a choice.  For example, I choose not to go through with all of the Incarnate material because I'm already pretty powerful.  So...for the most part, I skip it.  I'd rather spend my time leveling up another character that I enjoy playing.  Because that's what I like doing.  To each their own.

I thought that was the entire point of the incarnate system, to be powerful. Otherwise, it's just the equivalent of a lame level cap increase.

Edited January 24, 2020 by NNDeepdish

[Fan Mail]

I kind of always had this idea about the typical CoX player liking the game for what it is...the combat system, teaming dynamics, costume creator, etc.  

 

The folks that are on the constant search for the next new challenging MMO that's going to fulfill their life - this game probably won't fulfill you long term.  Who knows?  Maybe I'm wrong.

Edited January 24, 2020 by tafilr

[Bill Z Bubba]

Ok... prove it. Go solo an iTrial with a emp/nrg defender. Come back with video.

[AerialAssault]

The game, at it's highest tier of play, is too easy. There's no real denying that.

 

That doesn't mean the game's underbelly needs ripping out. Clearly, a lot of people want alternative challenge options. I'm down for more options, so much as they remain options.

 

But please consider, you may feel that the game is better off without IO's/Incarnates (I'd call you a glutton for punishment for it), you have the option to not slot IO's or Incarnates, and not participate in those things. By removing IO's/Incarnates, you're taking away options that people like me enjoy. In essence, dictating to me how I will play the game. I can't ever condone such a suggestion.

[Fortuneteller]

''I can play City of heroes blindfolded with my forehead''

20 hours ago, SmokinIndo said:

Even the most gimped build can solo everything at +4/x8.

18 hours ago, SmokinIndo said:

I solo mobs at +2/x8,

20 hours ago, SmokinIndo said:

this game is easy AF

Hmmmm..
 

20 hours ago, SmokinIndo said:

I would love to see a new difficulty that increases enemy levels to +8,

I would too, but unlike yourself i'd actually use it. More realistically +5 or +6 though. You clearly have no clue how much more powerful +8 would be.

Anyway i'm not sure if taking suggestions and feedback from a dude with the name 'smokin indo' is the 200IQ play for the dev team. You can feel free to blaze it up on your weaksauce +2 difficulty though, just don't be too mad about how easy it is.. 😛

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

Imagine the tables were turned for a moment and CoH was a ubiquitously difficult game (it shouldn't be - but bear with me). You ask on the forums how you can have a more casual time to suit you, but you are just told that it isn't that sort of game, to get good and that if you want a casual experience, run synapse - that's nice and easy. That kind of answer will do very little to nourish you. Surely there are other players like you who would benefit from more casual content.

I mean, a game is fundamentally the kind of game it is, and I think it's a good thing that they play to their strengths and look after their core player base.  For example, I don't play Eve because that's not the kind of game I like, and I would never even think of going onto the forums and asking if, hey, could they make Eve more casual-friendly, let me level much faster, and maybe make PVP entirely optional while they're at it.  That would just be weird.

 

Most of the games I play are sandbox games, and that's really how I think of CoX.  It's a sandbox MMO, where you set your own challenges.  If that isn't the kind of MMO someone likes to play, then there are plenty more out there for them to try.

[Lines]

Just now, Grouchybeast said:

I mean, a game is fundamentally the kind of game it is, and I think it's a good thing that they play to their strengths and look after their core player base.  For example, I don't play Eve because that's not the kind of game I like, and I would never even think of going onto the forums and asking if, hey, could they make Eve more casual-friendly, let me level much faster, and maybe make PVP entirely optional while they're at it.  That would just be weird.

 

Most of the games I play are sandbox games, and that's really how I think of CoX.  It's a sandbox MMO, where you set your own challenges.  If that isn't the kind of MMO someone likes to play, then there are plenty more out there for them to try.

 

We could debate this point (though I'm catching myself umming and erring over how much I do and don't agree. I'm landing somewhere in the realm of 'agree'.), but that's not quite what I was trying to say.

 

More trying to suggest that the kinds of responses folks might get in these discussions may not be doing anything to deflate the issues that they are having with the game.

 

 

[Haijinx]

30 minutes ago, Fortuneteller said:

''I can play City of heroes blindfolded with my forehead''

Hmmmm..
 

I would too, but unlike yourself i'd actually use it. More realistically +5 or +6 though. You clearly have no clue how much more powerful +8 would be.

Anyway i'm not sure if taking suggestions and feedback from a dude with the name 'smokin indo' is the 200IQ play for the dev team. You can feel free to blaze it up on your weaksauce +2 difficulty though, just don't be too mad about how easy it is.. 😛

Wait .. what ?  You want us to suspect the sincerity of someone who boasted he could beat this game with his "forehead"  ?  

 

 

[Fan Mail]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ok... prove it. Go solo an iTrial with a emp/nrg defender. Come back with video.

I don't think I'd be able to solo any iTrial with ANY of my top 3 characters.  Guess I suck as a player.  Maybe I should try the forehead thing.

[Wavicle]

Do the people who complain the game is too easy really fight Carnies, Malta, Rularu?  Do they attempt iTrials with the minimum league size?

I just wonder if maybe the more difficult options are actually already there (not that there couldn't be more).

[Illy]

Yeah nerf yourself guys. Blindfold yourself. Play with your toes. 

 

Intelligent suggestions. 

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Illy said:

Yeah nerf yourself guys. Blindfold yourself. Play with your toes. 

 

Intelligent suggestions. 

That was the original poster's boast.  Not the suggestions.

[Super Atom]

52 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Do the people who complain the game is too easy really fight Carnies, Malta, Rularu?  Do they attempt iTrials with the minimum league size?

I just wonder if maybe the more difficult options are actually already there (not that there couldn't be more).

Carnies/Matlta are easy. More challenging would be +4/x8 Awakened in the Mr.G arc or BP/PPD in the DA arcs. Those can be solo'd but they're still pretty rough for most characters. From personal experience. There are characters who will straight up regardless of their IO/Incarnate never be able to solo +4/x8 awakened. This is one zone sure but this is as challenging as soloing something that isn't an Itrial is gonna get. It's also a decent glimpse into how the devs were approaching incarnates needing harder enemies.

 

On a side note, i see 0 harm in adding +5 - +8 and keeping it optional. It forces no one and gives people more choice. I don't see +8 going well for anyone, might even be too much for teams but hey who doesn't wanna try?

Edited January 24, 2020 by Super Atom

[VileTerror]

It was raised in another topic, but the social aspect of this game already adds some complication factors for difficulty.
Having the options is great!

Figuring out how to effectively communicate with your team what your difficulty expectations are is apparently more challenging.

 

I think that, perhaps, some investigation in to in-game tools which facilitate teaming with groups who have similar difficulty exceptions as yourself would be a Good Thing right now.

Obviously, communication is great and probably the best solution . . . but let's be honest with ourselves . . . how frequently are things poorly articulated or get misconstrued?  

 

We have the /roleplaying flag now.  Perhaps a /hardcore flag wouldn't be amiss.

[DR_Mechano]

One thing I will accept is, rather that increasing the base games difficulty, is adding more difficulty options to the notoriety system. Mobs of a higher level already rewards more XP and Inf so that is its own reward if you want to fight, I don't know +6/x8 you get to earn more inf and faster XP (which translates to quicker vet levels even at 50) plus its bragging rights that you beat a taskforce on that difficulty level, sure the rewards at the end are exactly the same but YOU did it on a higher difficulty.

[RCU7115]

20 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It would have 0 a lot sooner if lunatic posts like yours actually get their way.

I agree

 

[EmmySky]

Chiming in on the options talk.

 

I like options.  More options are generally a good thing.  I would even argue lets go the other way as well.  Say, -2 up to +6.

 

I was soloing at 0/1 on my scrapper the other day, even set so low I was seeing oranges and reds in some spawns.  A 38 scrapper can deal with that, no problem.  But I thought, what if I were on one of my super squishies, no sets (I always wait til 50 for sets) and few offensive attacks?  Also, there are people playing today who played live as teens or young adults and now they are sharing the game with their children.  Sometimes a 7 yr old is a little slower picking it up (sometimes they are quicker than us old folks) but for squishies, concept characters or brand new and young players, an easier option would be nice.

 

Anyway, despite the hyperbole of the OP, I think more options in the difficulty scaler would be a good thing, going both ways.

[VileTerror]

And not to be antagonistic, but with how dedicated roleplayers are:  Good luck every getting rid of all the City of Heroes players no matter HOW easy you make the game.  Roleplayers gonna roleplay no matter what.  But they might not -gameplay- if the difficulty gets cranked up.

 

But 100,000,000% in agreement with EmmySky!  If we give them hardcorers a +6 or +8, could us "weak saucers" please get -2 and -3?

[Super Atom]

Anyone looking for difficulty, nows your chance.

 

Lambda sector is bugged and marauder spams nova fist.

 

Not being sarcastic, just pointing it out.

[RCU7115]

21 hours ago, SmokinIndo said:

Why don't I just play the game with my arms tied behind my back? I'm sure that will make the game more challenging.

Please do and record it for proof.

[DR_Mechano]

1 minute ago, RCU7115 said:

Please do and record it for proof.

Yeah. I mean there was the guy who beat Dark Souls with a Guitar hero guitar controller or someone who did it using a dance mat, those guys are awesome. There's also a professional Street Fighter player (who has been to EVO) that is a quadriplegic and competes using only his mouth and nose (he actually places pretty well in tournaments), all my respect to those guys. So if you can beat, I don't know, lets say a Positron 1 with your hands behind your back and only using your face I'd be all over seeing that, I'd even give it a like on youtube.

[RCU7115]

4 hours ago, NNDeepdish said:

I thought that was the entire point of the incarnate system, to be powerful. Otherwise, it's just the equivalent of a lame level cap increase.

That's what I thought.