Knockback Attack! What cool stuff could KB do?

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

 No, do not increase the damage with the magnitude of the knockback. That just means that people have to slot knockback in order to get full damage on their attacks. That would be stupid. 

Hypothetically, Man A pushes Man B over, Man B falls on the ground. The push was gentle and likely did miniscule damage. However falling on the ground Man B takes damage, because ouch it hurts falling on the ground.

 

Man B now gets up and uppercuts Man A. Man A falls to the ground. The uppercut hurts a lot more than getting pushed over. Falling on the ground does about the same as in scenario 1.

 

Man A angry about getting uppercut, Spartan kicks Man B through the third floor window. Man B although hurt from the kick, is now going to take a lot more damage falling three floors to the ground.

 

Force=Mass*Acceleration

Acceleration (falling) is roughly 9.8m/s^2*time up to a terminal velocity which with an average human free falling while skydiving is about 122 miles per hour.

 

Bringing that back into the realm of the game, I think it's a very reasonable idea to allow bonus knockback damage, if it were to ever exist, to scale based on distance traveled. Chances are depending on the power and AT modifiers, it would reduce the chance that NPCs were still alive when a Peacebringer for example popped Dawn Strike.

 

It seems the big animosity towards knock back is that mobs get scattered and end up reducing efficiency and forcing the team to individually target the survivors. What I propose would ultimately reduce the number of survivors and therefore increase efficiency.

Edited February 3, 2020 by SeraphimKensai

[Blackfeather]

I'm imagining additional damage from Knockback as functioning as follows:

• Small amount of increased damage from powers that cause Knockback (KB magnitude >= 1)
• Large amount of increased damage for enemies knocked into something (e.g. walls, lower level floors)

Basically providing an incentive for not only Knockback, but Knockback that's used in a way that still keeps things relatively together - rather than making an enemy fly across a room say, it'd be more effective to slam them against the wall they're standing next to.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Blackfeather
Clarified wording.

[_NOPE_]

Fantastic idea. I approve wholeheartedly. Also, very comic-booky.

[Wavicle]

39 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm imagining additional damage from Knockback as functioning as follows:

• Small amount of increased damage from increased KB magnitude ( >= 1 )
• Large amount of increased damage for enemies knocked into something (e.g. walls, lower level floors)

Basically providing an incentive for not only Knockback, but Knockback that's used in a way that still keeps things relatively together - rather than making an enemy fly across a room say, it'd be more effective to slam them against the wall they're standing next to.

It's going to be a No to any idea that requires Knockback slotting for full damage.

[Blackfeather]

Just now, sacredlunatic said:

It's going to be a No to any idea that requires Knockback slotting for full damage.

What I mean by increased damage from increased KB magnitude is "any power that causes Knockback", that is, any power with a KB magnitude of 1 or higher. It doesn't mean having to increase the KB of a power to increase its damage.

[_NOPE_]

3 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

It's going to be a No to any idea that requires Knockback slotting for full damage.

 

1 minute ago, Blackfeather said:

What I mean by increased damage from increased KB magnitude is "any power that causes Knockback", that is, any power with a KB magnitude of 1 or higher. It doesn't mean having to increase the KB of a power to increase its damage.

Yeah.... I'd just HATE to make your min/max heart cry by "forcing" you to slot for KB for extra damage because you HAVE to maximize your damage at all times.

[Grouchybeast]

36 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Fantastic idea. I approve wholeheartedly. Also, very comic-booky.

I just had a vision of buffing the damage caused by increasing knockback until it's the preferred power for AE farming, Force Feedback is worth millions, and there are constant demands for a purple KB set.  Combats would look amazing.  But seriously, I also think it's a great idea.

[Bossk_Hogg]

4 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

 No, do not increase the damage with the magnitude of the knockback. That just means that people have to slot knockback in order to get full damage on their attacks. That would be stupid. 

You already get "full" damage by slotting 100% damage. The KB mag boosted damage is just extra. Given that KB is potentially disadvantageous by scattering mobs for AE purposes, or requires extra time and finesse to be used, I think it deserves an extra perk. 

[MunkiLord]

5 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

 No, do not increase the damage with the magnitude of the knockback. That just means that people have to slot knockback in order to get full damage on their attacks. That would be stupid. 

Then don't slot for KB and have the normal damage powers have always had. That would be a valid choice, and this game is all about choices. Problem solved.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, sacredlunatic said:

It's going to be a No to any idea that requires Knockback slotting for full damage.

Devils advocate, but KB enhancements are 60% per pop, twice as powerful as damage enhancements, capping at around 180% with ED. 

 

If a power slotted for damage and KB gets dead guys everywhere, I see that as a win.

[MunkiLord]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Devils advocate, but KB enhancements are 60% per pop, twice as powerful as damage enhancements, capping at around 180% with ED. 

 

If a power slotted for damage and KB gets dead guys everywhere, I see that as a win.

In addition, the way I assume this would work is enemies with high KB protection would minimize/negate such an effect. So this would have minimal to no impact on AVs and many other enemies. Minions melt so quick that in a teaming situation this would likely not matter as they are one shotted with the initial attack, or perhaps finished off when Explosive Blast(or whatever) knocks them across the room.

[Galaxy Brain]

I would imagine it to be a proc that occurs when KB does that scales on the applied mag as well.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

In addition, the way I assume this would work is enemies with high KB protection would minimize/negate such an effect. So this would have minimal to no impact on AVs and many other enemies. Minions melt so quick that in a teaming situation this would likely not matter as they are one shotted with the initial attack, or perhaps finished off when Explosive Blast(or whatever) knocks them across the room.

I guess the logical way to do it would be to scale the 'Whoa, did you see how far she punched that dude?' damage to the magnitude of KB that actually makes it through any KB protection the target has.  So an AV with purple triangles up would be okay, but with them down might be in trouble depending on how enthusiastically people started slotting KB.

 

Although simultaneously applied KB stacks, right?  Because if so two blasters coordinating slotted up Power Push should be able to send an AV flying right through their purple triangles.

 

Also we should add a KB boost effect to Energy Blast's Aim.

[Galaxy Brain]

Stacked KB does stack, which is why you sometimes see somebody flung out of a KD patch like ice slick if another KD happens at the exact same time.

 

 

Anywho, say we do go for a Damage Proc (smashing) for KB when it occurs. How strong should it be? 

 

Let's throw Energy's Power Bolt (T1 blast) out as an example. It deals ~63 damage at lvl 50 for a blaster at base, with a 20% chance to deal mag 1.163 knockback. 

 

Ignoring the chance, let's throw this at the wall:

 

KB damage = Base damage * (Mag - 1)

[Mag will clamp to 0 if the number would be negative, IE knockdowns]

 

KB Damage = 63 * (0.163)

KB damage = 10.269 [10 or 11 damage]

Total = ~74 

Total w dmg enh = ~133

 

With full KB enhancement, you increase the mag by about 175%, so the 1.163 becomes 3.198

 

KB damage = 63 * (2.198) 

KB damage = 138.48 [138 or 139]

Total = ~202 ...

Total w dmg enh = ~261

 

That may be a bit much... let's look at some others for giggles.

 

Power Burst (T3 blast)

Base damage = ~133

KB base mag = 3.323, 60% chance

KB damage = ~309 - ~1082

Total = ~442 - ~1333

 

Power Push (utility with wumbo KB)

Base Damage = 17

Base Mag = 13.294, 100% chance

KB damage = 209 - 605

Total = 226 - 640

 

So yeah, that would be as the experts call "a big oof".

 

Alternatively, we could just do:

 

KB damage = Mag * 10?

 

Power Bolt = 12 - 32 dmg (20-50% of base dmg)

Power Burst = 34 - 91 (25-70% of base)

Power Push = 133 - 366 (lol % of base)

 

This would not scale per AT outside of odd KB mods, but the base attack damage would be separate. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Galaxy Brain]

Edited the above post given that 3 lvl 50 KB IO's boosts by 175%, not 180%

 

Lets look at some other examples on Corruptor sets if we simply did "Mag x 10":

 

Gale = 8.31 - 22.88 KB, 100% chance

Damage = 83 - 223

 

Force Bolt = 8.64 - 23.76, 100% chance

Damage = 87 - 238 

 

Archery for comparison:

Fistful of Arrows = 37.95 - 74

Aimed Shot = 41.71 - 81.34

 

 

That also seems off, given that those KB powers out-do similar ranged attack powers in raw damage (though when slotted for KB you are also absolutely yeeting enemies possibly out of your own range).

 

A simpler fix could just be:

KB damage = (Mag * 10) * AT Range Mod

 

Blaster Energy Blast: (1.125 dam mod)

Power Bolt = 12 - 32 >>> 14 - 36

Power Burst = 34 - 91 >>> 39 - 103

Power Push = 133 - 366 >>> 150 - 412

 

 

Corruptor Energy Blast: (0.75 dam mod)

Power Bolt = 12 - 32 >>> 9 - 24

Power Burst = 34 - 91 >>> 26 - 69

Power Push = 133 - 366 >>> 100 - 275

 

Corruptor Gale = 83 - 223 >>> 63 - 168

Corruptor Force Bolt = 87 - 238 >>> 66 - 179

 

 

This seems better.... hrm

[Grouchybeast]

I like these numbers. and while the damage buff to Power Push might seem a little OTT, I kind of like that, too.  The whole point of this hypothetical for me is to make KB so amazing that people would start agitating for procs to ADD KB rather than take it away.  Put me down as +1 for the Big Yeets.

[_NOPE_]

[Galaxy Brain]

@The Philotic Knight

 

Playing with this a bit more, I decided to look into a few powers and look at enhancing the effect. Lets start with Blasters.

 

The KB bonus is: (Mag * 10) * 1.125 (Blaster Range Mod)

 

Total Dam = Base Dam + KB Bonus

Avg Dam = Base Dam + (KB Bonus * % Chance to KB)

Boost = % damage increase compared to base

 

 

With no enhancement, at level 50, you can see where certain powers may benefit very well from such a change. Namely, powers that have a 100% chance to knock back with huge magnitude. Lets add in 175% KB enhancement:

 

 

This slotting will require 3 lvl 50 KB IO's in each power. 

 

Lets see 3 damage IO's for 98% enhancement:

 

 

For some powers, it looks like the damage enhancement should be more fruitful. Namely Power Bolt, power Blast, Power Burst, Sniper Blast, and if going by "average" damage with the KB chance, Explosive Blast. The rest are more damaging with KB enhancement, but with the caveat that of course you are yeeting people everywhere.

 

Both values x3 enhanced:

 

 

 

Events out a bit more.... and lastly lets look at Build Up + 3 enhancements each:

 

 

So yeah, perhaps there should be some sort of tweaking for AoEs / lower chance vs guaranteed KB, but I'm not sure. If the KB damage is a proc, it won't be effected by further +Damage boosts outside of +Knockback effects you somehow aquire. 

 

Any procs, or immobilizes / holds, or natural resistances to knockback would probably effect the proc as well if the magnitudes are decreased. So sure, Nova may be wumbo-sized against a rando minion, but vs a boss in an Immobilize it may not even do bonus damage.

[Brutal Justice]

The knockback IOs could also have their damage enhancement values increased substantially.  That’s probably an easier way to apply more damage to knockbacks than coding a proc or separate mechanic.  Say you six slot a knockback set and you end up with 110% enhancement instead of the typical ~96%.  Or some solid +dam bonuses in the knockback sets.  

 

Upon further thought, the increased damage would have to be tied to the 6th slot.  Otherwise the kB-kd IO would be used as a loophole in the 6th slot.  A knockback IO set with +10 dam in the 6th slot.  

[Galaxy Brain]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

The knockback IOs could also have their damage enhancement values increased substantially.  That’s probably an easier way to apply more damage to knockbacks than coding a proc or separate mechanic.  Say you six slot a knockback set and you end up with 110% enhancement instead of the typical ~96%.  Or some solid +dam bonuses in the knockback sets.  

 

Upon further thought, the increased damage would have to be tied to the 6th slot.  Otherwise the kB-kd IO would be used as a loophole in the 6th slot.  A knockback IO set with +10 dam in the 6th slot.  

Hmm, possible but it still doesnt give the "wow" value for the high magnitude KB powers which are the real subject of ire, since outside of say... Nova, few are amazing attacks.

[Grouchybeast]

59 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hmm, possible but it still doesnt give the "wow" value for the high magnitude KB powers which are the real subject of ire, since outside of say... Nova, few are amazing attacks.

+1

 

The damage buff would need to be tied directly to KB mag suffered by the target in order to make that KB mag desirable,

 

Also, I think that making it a +dam set bonus (and thus a global effect) would just lead to people muling the hypothetical set either in powers they don't often use, or powers with the lowest mag KB.  Not what we want, which is epic comic-book knockback.

[MunkiLord]

This is excellent stuff. I'm fully on board with this.

[Galaxy Brain]

I really like this proc idea, though I'm undecided on if it's too stronk. The issue is moreso the few high-mag attacks that also have decent base damage. If we do like, Mag*5 then non-high mag KB is just sorta in the same boat as now 🤔

[Megajoule]

As someone who enjoys KB (see userpic of FF/EB main, who took and loves Energy Torrent!), I'm all for something to make it (more) useful on teams.

 

A big part of the issue (I won't say "problem") is that right now, the team meta is very much about AOE spam:  herd 'em up and/or lock 'em down, and then obliterate them with Judgments and regular AOE attacks.  If you've got enough overkill (and most do, these days), the first part is optional.  Anything that interferes with, or slows down, carpet-bombing enemy spawns is seen as a negative.  The same would be true, I'm sure, of any suggested changes that would make this not the quickest/optimal way to clear missions.

 

tl;dr no one hardly anyone wants to work the angles and terrain or do combat maneuvers, they just want to spam nukes/fireballs.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Megajoule

[Greycat]

There's always "Play in conjunction with hold/immob powers." I mean, if you're hit with a force that *should* knock you back and you're held in place, that should do extra damage.  Containment is a thing, after all...