Get rid of ALL Agro caps

[siolfir]

Well, to be fair, it only reduces difficulty with a team size greater than 1. And no pets. For a solo character with no pets it will increase difficulty to the point where a farmer might actually have to use their heal (that recharges in under 20 seconds) instead of just allowing their base regen to take care of all of the incoming damage. Probably not, but maybe.

[MunkiLord]

52 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Well, to be fair, it only reduces difficulty with a team size greater than 1. And no pets. For a solo character with no pets it will increase difficulty to the point where a farmer might actually have to use their heal (that recharges in under 20 seconds) instead of just allowing their base regen to take care of all of the incoming damage. Probably not, but maybe.

I'm not even sure I took my heal on my farmer. 

[Steampunkette]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

Well, to be fair, it only reduces difficulty with a team size greater than 1. And no pets. For a solo character with no pets it will increase difficulty to the point where a farmer might actually have to use their heal (that recharges in under 20 seconds) instead of just allowing their base regen to take care of all of the incoming damage. Probably not, but maybe.

A solo player playing at the maximum spawn size rounding up multiple spawns would see an increase in deaths. But "Dying Faster" is not difficulty, in my books. It's just taking more damage... There's no tactical changes, no structural changes to the encounters, no thinking... Just more damage output. It's as much "More difficult" as giving the NPCs doubled hit points. It takes longer to kill them all, but that's all you're really getting out of it: A Change in Speed.

 

The underlying gameplay issues that create a low ceiling for gameplay difficulty remain.

[SwitchFade]

This entire debate is theory crafting in a void where the past has yet to exist.

 

Issue 3: herding entire maps was common. And fire tanks did it, the squishiest tank. My invuln tank in issue 2-3 was no where near as tough as he is now and I could herd the whole Dreck map to a dumpster. Regardless of what anyone thinks, Ed, GDN, purple patch and resist value changes on tanks were eclipsed long ago. Attacking normally, my tank has nearly 90% resist all with 45% defense to most. And my regen is higher now.

 

Bottom line, if you remove aggro caps I'll still be able to lolafk a map 

 

If 4 GM's can't kill me while I laugh, then a whole map of council won't.

Edited February 9, 2020 by SwitchFade

[hejtmane]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

This entire debate is theory crafting in a void where the past has yet to exist.

 

Issue 3: herding entire maps was common. And fire tanks did it, the squishiest tank. My invuln tank in issue 2-3 was no where near as tough as he is now and I could herd the whole Dreck map to a dumpster. Regardless of what anyone thinks, Ed, GDN, purple patch and resist value changes on tanks were eclipsed long ago. Attacking normally, my tank has nearly 90% resist all with 45% defense to most. And my regen is higher now.

 

Bottom line, if you remove aggro caps I'll still be able to lolafk a map 

 

If 4 GM's can't kill me while I laugh, then a whole map of council won't.

I agree us old timers that where back here in the non agro cap days now how bad that is and what was going on they just do not understand.

[Steampunkette]

I'm an old timer, too...

 

I just know that the whippersnappers and the nostalgia boys won't -listen- to people who were there back then. So I have to put it in baseline math to show them just how easy it was...

 

Especially for 90/45s! Taking 1% of incoming damage is just obscene, and well within the reach of any Invuln Tanker.

[Steampunkette]

Just for shits n' giggles, I put together a quickie Brute Build for anyone that wants to be able to completely ignore S/L damage.

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1476&c=681&a=1362&f=HEX&dc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

 

Titan Weapons/Invuln. Constant 50% Defense to S/L (Defensive Sweep to pop it up to 70% Smashing) capped at 45%, and a further 100% (capped at 90%) S/L Damage Resistance.

 

It's not a blistering TW Speedbuild, but it'll just wade through enemies indefinitely.

[Haijinx]

Doesn't really even take a tanker or Brute these days. 

 

My stalker has 60% def S/L and 60 res S/L. Before hitting Energy Drain.  With a big Regen boosting self heal.  

 

This was Tanker level mitigation when the first IOs came out.

 

 

[QuiJon]

On 2/8/2020 at 10:40 AM, Steampunkette said:

Increasing the total number of incoming attacks certainly does increase the speed at which you take damage. No one is debating that. But once you're in the 40% Defense, 40% Resistance range? The increase is pitiably low. Particularly if you've got -any- kind of support or damage-dealing capabilities and ESPECIALLY if you've got some kind of hard-control power which shuts down the flow of incoming damage instantaneously for an extended period during which the enemy is dispatched.

See for me it is more for the idea that a single tanker or brute is fighting these mobs. Lets face it, farming exists, it always has, it always will. I refuse to see a game design that simply exists to limit that ability. I guess my problem is that I might be confusing agro with taunt. I want enemies to agro, unlimitedly. If you go running into that room at the end of lady Grey willy nilly I want all 200 rikti to agro all at once to you. Its chaotic, and its fun to push those limits. However I want there to also have to be thought by the team, by the leader as to figure out what  needs to be done to live. A tanker or brute is likely to have an advantage already because of their armor sets. But if we can increase how much of those mobs agro vs how many of those mobs can be taunted to the meat shield, then we might have some fun again. Sure you can agro 100 enemies but can only taunt 16 then that means some 84 enemies are going to be easy to be pulled off the tanker or brute and drawn into conflict with the squishy debuffers and blasters and such. Now suddenly that extra damage of having blaster AOEs available means something. Now suddenly having AOE controls is worth something. Cause right now mostly it is tank move into room draws some agro, team stands back from that mobs and shoots them in safety from outside the agro range of any other mobs, as enemies die more agro to the tank or brute but squishies are pretty much just shooting fish in a barrel. Control is worthless for the most part, its all just a taunt and damage game now. It isn't to me just about trying to kill a tanker or a brute, its about trying to balance the game play around the need to have team dynamics again. And I think this is step 1 no agro caps but taunt caps remain.

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

See for me it is more for the idea that a single tanker or brute is fighting these mobs. Lets face it, farming exists, it always has, it always will. I refuse to see a game design that simply exists to limit that ability. I guess my problem is that I might be confusing agro with taunt. I want enemies to agro, unlimitedly. If you go running into that room at the end of lady Grey willy nilly I want all 200 rikti to agro all at once to you. Its chaotic, and its fun to push those limits. However I want there to also have to be thought by the team, by the leader as to figure out what  needs to be done to live. A tanker or brute is likely to have an advantage already because of their armor sets. But if we can increase how much of those mobs agro vs how many of those mobs can be taunted to the meat shield, then we might have some fun again. Sure you can agro 100 enemies but can only taunt 16 then that means some 84 enemies are going to be easy to be pulled off the tanker or brute and drawn into conflict with the squishy debuffers and blasters and such. Now suddenly that extra damage of having blaster AOEs available means something. Now suddenly having AOE controls is worth something. Cause right now mostly it is tank move into room draws some agro, team stands back from that mobs and shoots them in safety from outside the agro range of any other mobs, as enemies die more agro to the tank or brute but squishies are pretty much just shooting fish in a barrel. Control is worthless for the most part, its all just a taunt and damage game now. It isn't to me just about trying to kill a tanker or a brute, its about trying to balance the game play around the need to have team dynamics again. And I think this is step 1 no agro caps but taunt caps remain.

"Make farming faster and more efficient without consideration to literally any other aspect of the game"

 

No thanks. It's good enough, already. I'd rather not further trivialize the game's difficulty across the board just so Johnny Firebrute can clear his farming map a little faster.

[QuiJon]

18 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

A solo player playing at the maximum spawn size rounding up multiple spawns would see an increase in deaths. But "Dying Faster" is not difficulty, in my books. It's just taking more damage... There's no tactical changes, no structural changes to the encounters, no thinking... Just more damage output. It's as much "More difficult" as giving the NPCs doubled hit points. It takes longer to kill them all, but that's all you're really getting out of it: A Change in Speed.

 

The underlying gameplay issues that create a low ceiling for gameplay difficulty remain.

Well part of the issue to me is how to make normal team game play fun and challenging again. I don't really care about farming or farmers. However the easiest way to do this would be simply to nerf player capabilities right? I mean cut tanker and brute res caps down to 75 or 80 percent, cut the defense soft cap down to 35-40 percent. Put timers on incarnate skills like the destinies that actually give them a down time. However the problem with this is we want to be super. And if suddenly a player went from having a mob of 16 around them an suddenly can only fight 10 or 8, they feel nerfed, and they don't feel super any more. I would like to see a way to make the game challenging again at the highest settings as it should be, without feeling weaker as a player. The only way to do that is to IMO buff enemies and change the dynamic of other tools, like how many attack you, how many spawn, perhaps the resistances levels so they take longer to kill can can dispense more damage.

 

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

"Make farming faster and more efficient without consideration to literally any other aspect of the game"

 

No thanks. It's good enough, already. I'd rather not further trivialize the game's difficulty across the board just so Johnny Firebrute can clear his farming map a little faster.

Look when it comes down to it, farms like the fire asteroid are designed to where agro is really a non-issue. All the mobs are right there in the open and your most used attacks have a low target cap to where even if you get 100 mobs around you, you are only hitting x many at a time anyway. You widdle down the mob on your and drag the rest to the next full mob. The map is small it would hardly be a difference in time, being faster or slower to have all those mobs come to you because you had no agro cap. Your powers are still going to be hitting their max number of targets if you are keeping a mob even of just 16 around you at any given point. No power hits more then that but incarnate powers and being most farmers prob take ion that chains anyway, even without the agro change it is not hard to max that attacks target cap either. 

 

What I want is enough mobs to be able to agro that the "meat shield" of the team can not fully control them with taunts and auras as to actually make playing every other character on the team mean something again. Cause right now gameplay IMO has mostly become: Stand 60 or so feet away from the brute or tank and runs into a room, shoot his mob with ranged attacks. Everything only attacks brute or tank, rinse and repeat as mobs standing around watching their buddies die wait their turn to add into the agro mob on the meat shield.

 

Its pretty boring over all and makes a game that for the most part can be more fun pushing yourself to play difficult missions solo cranked up with a well built squishy toon because, well at least I get to use more then just my damage abilities. 

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, QuiJon said:

See for me it is more for the idea that a single tanker or brute is fighting these mobs. Lets face it, farming exists, it always has, it always will. I refuse to see a game design that simply exists to limit that ability. I guess my problem is that I might be confusing agro with taunt. I want enemies to agro, unlimitedly. If you go running into that room at the end of lady Grey willy nilly I want all 200 rikti to agro all at once to you. Its chaotic, and its fun to push those limits. However I want there to also have to be thought by the team, by the leader as to figure out what  needs to be done to live. A tanker or brute is likely to have an advantage already because of their armor sets. But if we can increase how much of those mobs agro vs how many of those mobs can be taunted to the meat shield, then we might have some fun again. Sure you can agro 100 enemies but can only taunt 16 then that means some 84 enemies are going to be easy to be pulled off the tanker or brute and drawn into conflict with the squishy debuffers and blasters and such. Now suddenly that extra damage of having blaster AOEs available means something. Now suddenly having AOE controls is worth something. Cause right now mostly it is tank move into room draws some agro, team stands back from that mobs and shoots them in safety from outside the agro range of any other mobs, as enemies die more agro to the tank or brute but squishies are pretty much just shooting fish in a barrel. Control is worthless for the most part, its all just a taunt and damage game now. It isn't to me just about trying to kill a tanker or a brute, its about trying to balance the game play around the need to have team dynamics again. And I think this is step 1 no agro caps but taunt caps remain.

1. It's evident that higher difficulty or challenge is not the true desire, but a thin veil for omgherding, because it's been clearly demonstrated that raising aggro cap will just result in tanks being the end game again. To be clear, my tank could continue to brutalize an unlimited number of foes because very simply, even 100 or 1000 MOBs could not sustain enough damage before dying to get anywhere near eclipsing my mitigation.

 

2. Your explanation here of what you want is exactly how the game is now. You and 7 others go run into the bowl of the mother ship and watch how each person will take aggro, exactly because of the limit. You want to run in to a room and have 1000 MOBs attack you, if you're alone, and then if you are with a teammate, only be able to keep the attention of... 17? 30? 50? Essentially that's live, now. Run into a room with 143 rikti on a team of 8. All 8 take aggro. Difference? Sure, when your alone on the warrior map, you can herd the whole map so the net change is you get to dumpster herd again. So, the desire to change aggro cap as you have described is... So a tank can solo herd a map.

 

3. Because the tank could survive this, you now turn the game into "tank required," for one reason, the difference between a tank and a not-tank; where the not-tank is floored in 5 seconds. There would be NO middle ground. A happy casual team of 5 buddies go into an outdoor Hydra map, and they have no clue how to build a team. Few concept builds, poorly slotted... One or two blasters, and maybe a peacebringer with no idea about how to macro tray swap... Yeah, picture it. Get too near a second group... Run for it! Third group... Wiped. Or, maps where MOBs have increased perception? Spawn wiped. Gg, hosp it and abandon mission.

 

 

4. If you're playing 60 feet back from the tank... 'nuff said. My sentinel, scraps, controllers, defenders are all alpha absorbing machines, in BEFORE the tank.

 

In issue 3, when this was how the game was, if the tank slipped up at all, or a blaster got excited, instant kill of the squishy, because there was no limit to how many would aggro him. There was no middle ground. You either run low diff, or tank diff.

 

Further, due to aggro mechanics that cause MOBs to instantly target defenders, controllers and all support, those classes would be insta killed.

 

I'm sorry, but for more than a dozen reasons this is absolutely a hard no vote.

 

Unless you roll the entire game back to issue 3.

Edited February 9, 2020 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

Side note, after reading your OP again, where you mention the tank needed help to not die from herding a map...

 

I needed no help, my tank could do it alone. All other members of the team were window dressing.  True, it was an invuln tank so it's not like I was arresting baddies particularly fast, but I needed zero help to herd them and then eat Cheetos. Fire tanks? Easy. Herd, run, burn, they die too fast to do much damage.  Not sure you were running at that stupidly broken level, but it became so prolific it was clear even to the main tanks.

Edited February 10, 2020 by SwitchFade

[ivanhedgehog]

On 2/4/2020 at 11:47 AM, Apparition said:

IIRC, one of the developers posted a few months ago that the aggro cap is pretty much now hard coded into the game and removing it would break much of the game, if it's even possible at all.

I made a tank on we have cake and no agro was a lot of fun. Not saying it was a good idea and Im thinking it wouldnt be fun for someone that doesnt have a 500million IO build. just saying it was a blast on that particular character.

I will continue to run sometimes on cake because I enjoyed that. My mains will remain on HC. its not a mutually exclusive thing.

Edited February 10, 2020 by ivanhedgehog

[Solarverse]

On 2/7/2020 at 10:23 PM, siolfir said:

Given that the devs here have stated that they don't have any plans on changing it and it would decrease rather than increase if they did, I think your best bet at testing it is to go to one of the other servers that has already removed the aggro cap and try it there.

 

Since there's already been a dev statement about it - two of them, actually - I'm not sure who you're trying to convince at this point. Replies to random forum posters isn't going to accomplish the goal if it is to get the aggro cap removed, you need to present a case that convinces the devs that are already against the idea with something more than "it would be fun."

I have personally tested it and the conclusion I came up with, is that herding is simply not worth it and requires too much time. It's still better to go from mob to mob. As per the video below that I have recorded, you will see that if I do not keep the wolves aggroed, I will lose aggro since mobs have an aggro timer. In the old days of CoH, they did not have such a short aggro timer and did not require you to continuously back track to keep mobs aggro as you herd. People who fear that if the aggro cap was raised, that it would go back to, "Wait here" while the Tank herds, are mistaken. I do not believe the game would go back to that simply because, herding is not worth it. However...

 

What would happen if the aggro cap was raised, is that mobs would no longer stand around looking clueless if you aggroed more than the cap...they would actually attack you. IMO that is a good thing, because seeing mobs just stand around acting oblivious to my presence is my biggest pet peeve about this game. I do believe the game needs an aggro cap increase, but feel it would be pointless to make the aggro cap limitless.  Tripple the aggro cap, call it a day. IMO that is exactly what is needed and fear not, as you can see from this video, herding is still pointless due to mobs losing interest fairly quickly.

 

Watch in this video how I had to constantly backtrack and keep the mobs aggroed. The reason for this is in previous efforts, if I did not, I would only get about three mobs before they would run off and forget about me. It simply took too much time and wasn't worth it. I think we would get a few players who would try, but if you run accross players like that, quit the team. After a few times of Tanks losing everyone on their team, they would figure out pretty quickly that this play style is not worth the trouble, especially since going from mob to mob would still be a faster method of taking out mobs.

 

 

[Razor Cure]

I agree that mobs standing around ignoring someone that has just ran through said mob with a taunt aura going, is silly (due to already being at the aggro cap) but..no one is forcing anyone to Herd maps/mobs. No doubt it WAS epic to be able to herd up a full Dreck map, but it also would have been really really boring for everyone who wasn't the tank (even the tank actually, knowing there is literally no way to die would get old). Most maps (barring some outdoor ones) rarely have sections with more than 2-3 mobs in a small area anyway. Also, in those kinda areas, if a team really wants to herd them all, its a pretty simple matter of getting different team members to aggro different mobs, then all rushing back to the same corner or whatever.

The above idea of 3times the aggro cap is not too much of a stretch (given most map layouts) but would fall down with Target Caps on powers. AS mentioned, only Judgements hit more than 16/20? anyway, and I think a full x8 mob is about 16 baddies. A level 50 team with multiple judgements would wipe a herd of 3 mobs in 3 seconds, but a sub 40 team would stuggle, with aoes only hitting 1/3 or less of baddies.

 

[Solarverse]

16 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I agree that mobs standing around ignoring someone that has just ran through said mob with a taunt aura going, is silly (due to already being at the aggro cap) but..no one is forcing anyone to Herd maps/mobs. No doubt it WAS epic to be able to herd up a full Dreck map, but it also would have been really really boring for everyone who wasn't the tank (even the tank actually, knowing there is literally no way to die would get old). Most maps (barring some outdoor ones) rarely have sections with more than 2-3 mobs in a small area anyway. Also, in those kinda areas, if a team really wants to herd them all, its a pretty simple matter of getting different team members to aggro different mobs, then all rushing back to the same corner or whatever.

The above idea of 3times the aggro cap is not too much of a stretch (given most map layouts) but would fall down with Target Caps on powers. AS mentioned, only Judgements hit more than 16/20? anyway, and I think a full x8 mob is about 16 baddies. A level 50 team with multiple judgements would wipe a herd of 3 mobs in 3 seconds, but a sub 40 team would stuggle, with aoes only hitting 1/3 or less of baddies.

 

I would just see it as a challenge, something I have missed about this game anyway, a challenge throughout the leveling process.  🙂

 

Edit: I actually miss the days when the average team (not teams with Fire Tanks) were actually careful not to over aggro. Back when Blasters were called upon to pull to prevent from aggroing more than one mob at a time. Those days were very exciting for me. Have not seen that in this game in a very long time.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Solarverse

[Infinitum]

53 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Back when Blasters were called upon to pull to prevent from aggroing more than one mob at a time.

Because a flaming or icy or nuclear or arrow barrage or laser beam or machine gun blast hitting one person and it not attracting the 16 other baddies around it then running into the gauntlet without nary a whisper to its allies is much more realistic and unbroken than rushing the map.   Gotcha.

 

57 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Have not seen that in this game in a very long time.

Then you really aren't trying hard enough.

 

There is content that can still give you that feeling.  Not guaranteed every time if you are incarnate out to the gills.  But that's not really the games fault once you build your character out of 80 percent of normal content. 

 

The I trials and dark Astoria set to max level can still challenge even incarnate - especially low level incarnates.

 

Once I am maxed out on a character I roll another and write a new epic story with them.

[Solarverse]

18 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Because a flaming or icy or nuclear or arrow barrage or laser beam or machine gun blast hitting one person and it not attracting the 16 other baddies around it then running into the gauntlet without nary a whisper to its allies is much more realistic and unbroken than rushing the map.   Gotcha.

Looks like I ruffled some feathers.

[Infinitum]

49 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Looks like I ruffled some feathers.

Nope, just some trees, because you cant see the forest for them.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Nope, just some trees, because you cant see the forest for them.

And you can't smell your own **** on your knees! I see what you did there.

[MunkiLord]

No need to fight, you're both beautiful people!

[Infinitum]

28 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

No need to fight, you're both beautiful people!

Darn right  🙂

[Leogunner]

15 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

No need to fight, you're both beautiful people!

Incorrect. 

[MunkiLord]

23 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Incorrect. 

Rude! I love you though you hurt me so. Now I'm going to pack my things and go.