Was Just Reading the Lore Bible, when ... (re: Banished Pantheon & "Fame" Game Mechanic)

[VileTerror]

Quoted from the Lore Bible in the Banished Pantheon section 7.1.3, page 106:

"Ideally there would actually be some sort of in game effect associated with fighting the Banished Pantheon. For instance, when their minions defeat heroes they lose extra Fame. Another interesting option would be to allow them to strip away unspent influence points or even to destroy unused favors. On the flip side they shouldn’t be quite as tough as their difficulty level would suggest because of the added penalty. You could also balance the Pantheon by giving higher Fame rewards for defeating them, or giving them higher XP rewards than normal."

 

How very interesting!

[RubyRed]

"interesting option" ... I could only imagine the outcry when players encounter monsters that eat inf 🤣

(I assume that's what's meant by "strip away unspent influence points" ? though it's not real clear)

Edited February 13, 2020 by RubyRed

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

again the so called lore bible is a collection of different eras bits and pieces, often from rough drafts and much of it has very little to do with the actual official lore that made it into the game.  The only Lore I ever use is that which is either actually in game, or that which I was lucky enough to become aware of through my interaction with devs on live and talking to them about it. Hence how I learned from synapse that the clockwork king is largely the tantrum throwing child he is because, he was just a barely teen age mutant boy with powers barely under control when blue steel beat him to near death. And that it was synapse and posi who saved the brain for study not aware it was still a self aware psychic entity who then used its powers to build itself a body and escape. That is basically the reason why the King is somewhat tolerated. Because he isnt so much evil as just a rebellious and angry child that can never grow up because no body equals no going through puberty and growing up.

[Vanden]

Sounds a lot like how the undead in early D&D would drain levels from the PCs.

[HelBlaiz]

Why would being beaten by shamans worshipping eldritch abomination gods and zombies make people hate you more than being defeated by anything else? Combined with the lovecraftian inspiration, it seems like the concept of losing face by failing to beat them might carry some unfortunate unintended implications.

[Blastit]

13 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

Why would being beaten by shamans worshipping eldritch abomination gods and zombies make people hate you more than being defeated by anything else? Combined with the lovecraftian inspiration, it seems like the concept of losing face by failing to beat them might carry some unfortunate unintended implications.

Their awful powers curse you. Or maybe exposure to them cause you to act a bit weird for a while afterwards. Or maybe people just suspect that you could've been possessed.

[HelBlaiz]

The only way it would make sense to me is if "Fame" was the original totally-not-xp-you-guys mechanic. Messing with xp, as previously mentioned is a common undead thing usually flavored as messing with your soul. I could see losing xp on death as them taking a part of it before you mediport out, or extra debt as some sort of curse. But it also mentions losing influence and favors. People think less of you for dying to the Banished Pantheon. Do the Circle of Thorns get the same effect? What about the Carnival of Shadows? Why does losing to brown skinned tribal shamans affect your social standing mentioned specifically? Are they less of a threat? Are you supposed to be superior? Again, if it weren't a very lovecraftian style cult villain group, I probably wouldn't even be asking.

[VileTerror]

Sorry, looks like I should have included the previous paragraph too for more context.

Here it is:

"As a result of this phenomenon, the gods of the Pantheon have taken a special interest in conquering famous heroes and stripping away these auras of worship that have built up around them. The process comes naturally to any of the gods’ avatars, which can consume the delectable aura as they defeat a hero in battle. They do not have to kill the hero. Indeed, they prefer not to. Instead they like to humiliate and temporarily or permanently cripple their foes. This not only produces the added bonus of sorrow and pain for the gods to feed on, it also makes it easier to strip away the fame aura since the hero himself comes to believe he is not worthy of the accolades he has earned."

[HelBlaiz]

Yay, context! That definitely makes some villainous sense for the pantheon then. Since their gods are forces of negativity.

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Hence how I learned from synapse that the clockwork king is largely the tantrum throwing child he is because, he was just a barely teen age mutant boy with powers barely under control when blue steel beat him to near death. And that it was synapse and posi who saved the brain for study not aware it was still a self aware psychic entity who then used its powers to build itself a body and escape.

Good Lord, now I want a “Justice for Russel” arc where heroes help him get justice against Blue Steel (seriously, who beats a 13-14 year old homeless boy into a sack of broken bones and gets to keep their badge... or not go to prison for that matter?) and apparently Posi and Synapse for basically taking the brain of a homeless kid that wasn’t even confirmed dead yet so they could study it.

 

And there’s at least three different groups that have cloning capabilities and not one of these so-called heroes ever thought “hmm... maybe we should grow this poor kid a clone body to replace the one Blue Steel beat to death so he doesn’t have to go through life as a brain in a jar?”

 

This has actually succeeded in replacing the walking war crime that is Longbow flamethrower troops as my top pet peeve directed towards so-called heroes (for which I almost hold MISS Liberty more responsible than her daughter; it may have been Ms. Liberty’s idea, but Alexis was the one in charge of Freedom Corps and approved the Longbow division... don’t let your kid play with flamethrowers Alexis, that’s bad parenting).

[Sakura Tenshi]

Given how many villains are resistant if not immune to fire (including a common street gang) I’ve never thought longbow flamethrowers were really in violation of jack.

 

plus, look at how many heroes have fire powers, why does no one give them grief?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

16 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Good Lord, now I want a “Justice for Russel” arc where heroes help him get justice against Blue Steel (seriously, who beats a 13-14 year old homeless boy into a sack of broken bones and gets to keep their badge... or not go to prison for that matter?) and apparently Posi and Synapse for basically taking the brain of a homeless kid that wasn’t even confirmed dead yet so they could study it.

 

And there’s at least three different groups that have cloning capabilities and not one of these so-called heroes ever thought “hmm... maybe we should grow this poor kid a clone body to replace the one Blue Steel beat to death so he doesn’t have to go through life as a brain in a jar?”

 

This has actually succeeded in replacing the walking war crime that is Longbow flamethrower troops as my top pet peeve directed towards so-called heroes (for which I almost hold MISS Liberty more responsible than her daughter; it may have been Ms. Liberty’s idea, but Alexis was the one in charge of Freedom Corps and approved the Longbow division... don’t let your kid play with flamethrowers Alexis, that’s bad parenting).

Blue Steel if I recall right was basiclaly given a free pass on Statesmans word, due to blue steels very minimal help during the rikti invasion. Meanwhile the Mistress of the carnival whom if I recall rights major early crime was using her power to avenge a murdered friend who the law failed to get justice for due to the killer being a member of the social elite. And who actually was instrumental in saving the world during the same time as blue steels actions that were enough to give him a pass but not her nope, she murdered a man who raped and murdered an innocent woman and was untouchable by the courts and so is basically forced into a life of crime and an outcast from society.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 minute ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Given how many villains are resistant if not immune to fire (including a common street gang) I’ve never thought longbow flamethrowers were really in violation of jack.

 

plus, look at how many heroes have fire powers, why does no one give them grief?

Because Statesman.

[Sakura Tenshi]

12 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Meanwhile the Mistress of the carnival whom if I recall rights major early crime was using her power to avenge a murdered friend who the law failed to get justice for due to the killer being a member of the social elite. And who actually was instrumental in saving the world during the same time as blue steels actions that were enough to give him a pass but not her nope, she murdered a man who raped and murdered an innocent woman and was untouchable by the courts and so is basically forced into a life of crime and an outcast from society.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Vanessa_DeVore

 

Maaaybe the devs told you something different but it seems to me Vanessa didn’t even let the law have a chance, nor did the law likely know what she had done to the gang until well after the fact.

 

and then there’s the soul eating thing. You know, eating the souls of who knows how many soldiers in the Rikti War, then eating the soul of Rachel Morris in her moment of death, as well as the souls of possibly every Carnie we defeat? On a moral level there’s the fact that she says she’s sheltering young women from abuse but only picks the wealthiest and most beautiful ones and probably supplies the decadent lifestyles by psychically persuading them to hand over their money in what seems to likely be a pyramid scheme. And the strong implication she mentally controls/dominates all her “playmates” in a sort of hive mind.

 

Do we want to go into what Giovanna Scaldi used to do? Because at the end of the end of the day, Vanessa seems to be guilty of plenty of her own crimes and kind of withdrew from legitimate society on her own accord.

[Myrmidon]

7 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

again the so called lore bible is a collection of different eras bits and pieces, often from rough drafts and much of it has very little to do with the actual official lore that made it into the game.  The only Lore I ever use is that which is either actually in game, or that which I was lucky enough to become aware of through my interaction with devs on live and talking to them about it. Hence how I learned from synapse that the clockwork king is largely the tantrum throwing child he is because, he was just a barely teen age mutant boy with powers barely under control when blue steel beat him to near death. And that it was synapse and posi who saved the brain for study not aware it was still a self aware psychic entity who then used its powers to build itself a body and escape. That is basically the reason why the King is somewhat tolerated. Because he isnt so much evil as just a rebellious and angry child that can never grow up because no body equals no going through puberty and growing up.

It would be hilarious if Joss Whedon read that at some point and used it as the idea for Age of Ultron.

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Blue Steel if I recall right was basiclaly given a free pass on Statesmans word, due to blue steels very minimal help during the rikti invasion. 

Yeah, I've always REALLY hated Blue Steel for this, and refuse to train any character with him out of spite. 

 

It also helps puts the clockwork king's affection for Penelope Yin into perspective, as he's more age-appropriate rather than a creepy old perv. If we ever get a re-do of the utterly terrible Synapse task force, it would be nice to help the kid out as the conclusion of his story. Maybe have Penelope talk him down, and someone give him a new body. Have the new version show up in IP similar to Matthew Haberty's wife in Atlas once you complete the TF. 

[Pixie_Knight]

Yeah, Blue Steel screwed up big time. However Clockwork King then went on to be directly responsible for at least one instance of kidnapping a family and using them to force a mechanic to work for him (the Captive of the Clockwork story arc), uncounted millions of dollars in property damage, attacking the police, attacking random citizens... Clockwork King is not a good person. And being brutally beaten nearly to death by Blue Steel doesn't excuse it. Then again, it's quite possible that Blue Steel thought the "villain" he was facing was more durable then the kid actually was.

 

Put yourself in his shoes. You have this teenager who's causing wanton destruction with psychic powers. You don't know if the kid has control of them or not, but the kid is a clear danger to the public. You're also aware that even the rank and file members of the weakest street gangs (hellions and outcasts) are dangerous as hell, and can take quite the beating. Hell, anyone with powers or the right training becomes super humanly durable and you can't always tell until you're fighting them. Far more then your average person. So, what was he suppose to do with these pieces of knowledge?

 

IMO, it's a bit similar to how people get up in arms when a cop fires upon a teen who was pointing what looked like a real gun at the officer. With how realistic some toy guns look, and how much like toys some real guns look... Is it any surprise that tragic mistakes like this get made? Blue Steel made a tragic decision based on the information he had on hand. But it wasn't necessarily the wrong decision. Was the kid still "attacking him" during the beating? Probably.

 

Keep in mind that player character heroes, who are supposedly not killing, use firings, flamethrowers, swords, poisonous gas, and other brutal methods to take down criminals. Or do you think those level 5 skulls you one shotted with a fireball or filled with lead from your assault rifle at level 25 didn't need medical treatment?

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'm sorry, being nearly killed by a POS cop in response to an accident for powers he couldn't control does kind of excuse most of that. He's a 13 year old kid, who will never grow up, eat, feel, get laid, etc because some some scumbag hiding behind a badge essentially murdered him, then another scumbag experimented on his corpse. It's not like there are any psychics on the FP who could be assed to psychically communicate with him or anything... Who would have thought that a young teenager would lash out?! 

 

  This is the kind of shit that lets cops murder people in their own home without accountability. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[VileTerror]

It's kind of interesting to me how this thread has pivoted away from the Banished Pantheon Lore, but oh well!  I'll swing with you folks for a quick bit.  Maybe we'll get back on track eventually, heh.

 

Blue Steel is an awful character, and a self-parody in much of his actual game content, playing off the old forum memes where Chuck Norris jokes were overwritten by even more extreme Blue Steel jokes.

His actions in the "Creation" of the Clockwork King probably merit a story arc where he has to come to justice for his actions, or go full Vigilante/Villain.  A great opportunity for a new writer to give the community a compelling story, frankly!

 

But I'd also like to see a new, better cop rise up to take Blue Steel's place.  Someone with better morals and less of a reminder of real-world police brutality going unpunished.  But -that- last bit might be a /bit/ too ranty, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Blue Steel's not the only bit of problematic lore from yester-year, of course.  Hell, reading this Lore Bible is QUITE revealing.  There's some good story in here that never made it in to the game.  There's also some use of language which would get the author(s) called out these days.  Again, not trying to dwell on that fact, so moving along again . . . 

 

Reading the chapter on the Banished Pantheon has also stoked greater flames in my passion project from when AE was first introduced:  A mission/trial/Task Force/whatever where you go up against the -ACTUAL- Banished Pantheon deities.  Not Mot (who, technically, isn't a part of the Banished Pantheon, but a separate god who the B.P. stumbled upon inside of Moth Cemetery).  The descriptions of Lughebu, M'Teru, Rambetu, Ullutay, and Tomdala are all QUITE engaging, though they should probably be bumped up a smidge.  And BOY HOWDY do I have -_IDEAS_- about how to utilize them!  So many ideas . . . such brutal, beautiful, terrible, horrific ideas . . . 

 

 

 . . . 

 

Please?

[Sakura Tenshi]

54 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Yeah, I've always REALLY hated Blue Steel for this, and refuse to train any character with him out of spite. 

 

It also helps puts the clockwork king's affection for Penelope Yin into perspective, as he's more age-appropriate rather than a creepy old perv. If we ever get a re-do of the utterly terrible Synapse task force, it would be nice to help the kid out as the conclusion of his story. Maybe have Penelope talk him down, and someone give him a new body. Have the new version show up in IP similar to Matthew Haberty's wife in Atlas once you complete the TF. 

Actually, the real irony is, if we take the Clockwork king as having been (and is now frozen) around 14-15, it means Penelope Yin is the one "too old" in the relationship, since the devs said even in the old Overbrook arcs she would have been a first semester PCU student, so unless she was grades above normal folks her age (Pretty possible admittedly) she was eighteen when he started seeing her as his clockwork princess.

 

That said, another factor people forget about why Blue Steel went nuts is because the night he killed the Clockwork King, he had (possibly on accident) murdered police officers trying to investigate what was going on with his creations. And I think this was right around the time Blue Steel and BAB disbanded the old Regulators and so they had seen plenty of crime families and street gangs murder cops with no comeuppance. So basically, Blue Steel went full Tumblr TRIGGERED mode. All in all, this does not excuse him, but the clockwork king's past does not entirely excuse him either.

 

But you know who really are not excused? The old live dev lore writers for coming up with a lot of this BS without thinking for five seconds about the implications of the tripe they were writing. By the time they cared about the lore they were doing, it was City of Villains development time, and thus, the villains got... Slightly better writing? Seriously, the @#$% is up with Serafina cursing Scirocco to be evil then being shocked that he's doing evil? Not to mention the clumsy way they handled the fact that Scirocco had already existed in the lore, and Ghost Widow (whose remains originally could be found in Galaxy MAGI office). And of course when they really really started to give a Wretch's booty about the whole thing, we were well into Going Rogue Development, which still meant more clumsy rewriting of Praetorians. (also, where the Eff was Praet Infernal? He was like the only Praetorian who was not even mentioned outside the redone Maria Jenkins arc)

 

Edit: On the note of VileTerror's comments...

 

Just for starters: what character for in-game content? He was used as a deus ex machina redside which is what spurred the chuck norris jokes and the devs played along. The only actual in-game writing he got was in Max's Arc in Dark Astoria.

 

As for the AE arc, it's a worthy cause, but I often find AE is just too damn restricting for most people's concepts and visions, especially in light of the mission tech we see in the main storylines. You don't want to have to load up an enemy on powers, but unfortunately your players will get less rewards without it even if they have the same number of powers as a Hellion or Skulls LT of the same level, and a common street thug now gets a full assault rifle with a grenade launcher and shotgun because EXP distribution is wonky. Or then there's the ability to select the powers you'd like but find either they're not in AE (traps anyone? Or sniper rifle?) or the powers are scattered across too many different sets. And that's just on the powers end. Then there's just the inability to do certain cool tricks like talk to someone within the mission and even have branching options. I guess a lot of this rant is because I had this idea for a simple AE arc for lowbies of natural origin about busting some gang members and finding out a newbie hero you're partnered with is out seeking blood and you have to decide whether to let him pursue revenge, talk him down, or even a middle of the road thing.

 

*I actually made a thread with a list of ideas that, while highly unreasonable and demanding, I think could still be done within the bounds of the programming.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[Luminara]

10 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

That is basically the reason why the King is somewhat tolerated. Because he isnt so much evil as just a rebellious and angry child that can never grow up because no body equals no going through puberty and growing up.

 

Emotional development isn't a product of puberty.  It's a result of time, experience and intellectual capacity.  The timeline of the game indicates that his confrontation with Blue Steel occurred in August of '02, and it's only a couple of years after that when players encounter the Clockwork King in his present form, so he is still, essentially, an adolescent or early adult at that point.

 

Point being, he can grow up, meaning, learn to behave in an adult manner, given time.  A lot of story potential there for a future task/strike force.

[VileTerror]

Yeah.  Considering real-life people with (I believe it's called) neoteny conditions do develop emotionally and mentally, so long as the underlying cause of the neoteny isn't also a source of a mental development barrier.  Puberty does affect brain growth and chemistry, but isn't the deciding factor in social maturity and understanding concepts like right-and-wrong.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Emotional development isn't a product of puberty.  It's a result of time, experience and intellectual capacity.  The timeline of the game indicates that his confrontation with Blue Steel occurred in August of '02, and it's only a couple of years after that when players encounter the Clockwork King in his present form, so he is still, essentially, an adolescent or early adult at that point.

 

Point being, he can grow up, meaning, learn to behave in an adult manner, given time.  A lot of story potential there for a future task/strike force.

Hey I didnt write it, that was just how I recall Synapse more or less explaining the underlying concept of the CK when I chatted with him in game about it a few times. One could put it as much as PTSd for the trauma he underwent and even like the emotional stunting that often occurs in those who are put into juvenile detention from a young age. It can from what Ive read cause a kind of permanent stunting of emotional development.

[Sakura Tenshi]

Also, don't forget, part of how we mature is usually having people around to mature with or teach us. I don't think the Clockwork king had much human contact until Penelope Yin.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Pixie_Knight said:

Yeah, Blue Steel screwed up big time. However Clockwork King then went on to be directly responsible for at least one instance of kidnapping a family and using them to force a mechanic to work for him (the Captive of the Clockwork story arc), uncounted millions of dollars in property damage, attacking the police, attacking random citizens... Clockwork King is not a good person. And being brutally beaten nearly to death by Blue Steel doesn't excuse it. Then again, it's quite possible that Blue Steel thought the "villain" he was facing was more durable then the kid actually was.

 

Put yourself in his shoes. You have this teenager who's causing wanton destruction with psychic powers. You don't know if the kid has control of them or not, but the kid is a clear danger to the public. You're also aware that even the rank and file members of the weakest street gangs (hellions and outcasts) are dangerous as hell, and can take quite the beating. Hell, anyone with powers or the right training becomes super humanly durable and you can't always tell until you're fighting them. Far more then your average person. So, what was he suppose to do with these pieces of knowledge?

 

IMO, it's a bit similar to how people get up in arms when a cop fires upon a teen who was pointing what looked like a real gun at the officer. With how realistic some toy guns look, and how much like toys some real guns look... Is it any surprise that tragic mistakes like this get made? Blue Steel made a tragic decision based on the information he had on hand. But it wasn't necessarily the wrong decision. Was the kid still "attacking him" during the beating? Probably.

 

Keep in mind that player character heroes, who are supposedly not killing, use firings, flamethrowers, swords, poisonous gas, and other brutal methods to take down criminals. Or do you think those level 5 skulls you one shotted with a fireball or filled with lead from your assault rifle at level 25 didn't need medical treatment?

It is worth noting Blue Steel was considered in the wrong, and it was swept under the rug, not pardoned nor said to be something acceptable of a hero. And at the time Blue Steel Beat the boy, the boy was little more then an orphan homeless kid, who had yes caused 2 deaths because his powers lashed out to defend him when they got violent with him. The anti meta, anti mutant aspect of comics does exist in paragon, more then likely those 2 cops just wanted to beat up a little mutie and paid the price.

 

Understand if not for Statesmans intervention Blue Steel would of ended up in the Zig. His actions were wrong.