The Broken Brutes Effect (please buff them)

[DR_Mechano]

54 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Another relevant question is whether or not the complainers are availing themselves of all of the different challenge settings in Ouroboros to make regular content harder.

We've been through this all before. Basically self imposed challenges aren't 'acceptable' for people looking for more difficulty. What they're actually looking for is a 'I can brag about doing X content because it's above the casual level' and nine times out of ten these people want exclusive rewards for doing said content for e-peen waving reasons rather than doing difficult content as a matter of challenging themselves.

 

And thus we argue back and forth, one side wants to be 'teh bestorz' and the other side is 'well challenge yourself' and then they fire back with 'yeah but that isn't going to offer me any exclusive rewards' and then the other side fires back with 'You should do it for the sake of the challenge' and they go off in a huff or restate their first point over again and the cycle continuous. Unfortunately people seem adamant about not making their own "no-IOs, only SOs, no Incarnates" server despite there apparently being a "really big call for it".

[macskull]

12 hours ago, blackswan said:

Now that I have your attention, I'm not actually advocating the buffing of brutes - quite the opposite actually.

 

So, I made a stalker and within a few levels I noticed how pointless it all felt when I have a brute. And with that, I realized a whole bunch of other things about this game including some that I feel would change it for the better (by a lot).

 

Why even make another melee class when my brute has more damage than any other AT in the game and has more survivability (without musculature incarnate).  It just feels like brutes are so strong that they replace every other dps class. They have more aoe, more survivability, way higher damage cap.

Survivability rating for melee ATs goes (highest to lowest) Tanker -> Brute -> Scrapper -> Stalker.

 

Damage rating for melee ATs goes (highest to lowest) Stalker -> Scrapper -> Brute -> Tanker.

 

Someone tell me again how any of this is wrong?

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I haven't either, but I imagine that the people that want the game to be harder should actually try some of the harder content options before having their requests taken seriously.

Well, I can't take AE missions as serious...so it looks like neither of us will be taking each other serious. If I have to go to the AE to find challenging content from level 1 to 50  then I am just going to have to say, oh f'ing well that you can't take me serious.

[DR_Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Well, I can't take AE missions as serious...so it looks like neither of us will be taking each other serious. If I have to go to the AE to find challenging content from level 1 to 50  then I am just going to have to say, oh f'ing well that you can't take me serious.

You know there ARE difficulty settings in Ouro right? They don't offer any extra rewards but you can get badges through running them with the various settings on.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ouroboros_Badges

 

Like 75 badges for it. You can learn more by looking at the flashback system stuff here:

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Flashback

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Solarverse]

32 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

We've been through this all before. Basically self imposed challenges aren't 'acceptable' for people looking for more difficulty. What they're actually looking for is a 'I can brag about doing X content because it's above the casual level' and nine times out of ten these people want exclusive rewards for doing said content for e-peen waving reasons rather than doing difficult content as a matter of challenging themselves.

 

And thus we argue back and forth, one side wants to be 'teh bestorz' and the other side is 'well challenge yourself' and then they fire back with 'yeah but that isn't going to offer me any exclusive rewards' and then the other side fires back with 'You should do it for the sake of the challenge' and they go off in a huff or restate their first point over again and the cycle continuous. Unfortunately people seem adamant about not making their own "no-IOs, only SOs, no Incarnates" server despite there apparently being a "really big call for it".

Man, you really have shit screwed up. Did you make that up? Have you not even read the countless threads on these boards about how players are feeling unneeded because...well...they aren't needed? 

 

Go play a Healer from level 1 to 50, join teams, start teams...and watch how if you crank the difficulty up past +0, people whine about it and drop your team. Join a team and watch how everyone plows through +0 mobs....you are not needed...not even a little bit. 

 

At the end of the Task Force or whatever, watch these same players "stroke their epeens" by saying things like, "Man, we rocked them out!" ...really? At +0?

 

It doesn't get any better at high level either. Once these players are decked out in IOed out set bonus builds, only then will they crank up the difficulty...which again, a Healer or Troller is next to useless.

 

Very few content in this game drives a team to seek out Defenders and Trollers. And I for one do not find playing these same missions over and over just to feel like a contribution to the team. Epeen indeed, dude. 

 

Some of us would like to play a Controller or a Defender without feeling utterly useless...and join regular teams...not chase the same few challenging missions over and over again, just to feel challenged...needed, appreciated. 

 

The fact you say we want a bigger challenge to stroke our epeens is just priceless. When the fact is just the opposite. You about made me spit my Big Red on myself when I read that crap.

 

Even worse, I am not here trying to change a damn thing about this game, in fact I am saying that in order to get the type of game WE crave, there would need to be a Vanilla server put together. So while you are over here thinking that we just want to go stroke our epeens, you might want to have a look in the mirror and recognize your own epeen not only in game, but also on this thread.

[Solarverse]

13 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

You know there ARE difficulty settings in Ouro right? They don't offer any extra rewards but you can get badges through running them with the various settings on.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ouroboros_Badges

 

Like 75 badges for it. You can learn more by looking at the flashback system stuff here:

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Flashback

 

See above post...

[Sif]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Go play a Healer from level 1 to 50, join teams, start teams...and watch how if you crank the difficulty up past +0, people whine about it and drop your team. Join a team and watch how everyone plows through +0 mobs....you are not needed...not even a little bit. 

1.) Healer? In City of Heroes? I'm so confused

2.) My experience hasn't been teams playing only at +0, my experience has been typically +2 or +3, with half the team -1 due to being lower leveled, and teams are very hesitant to lower the difficulty, even after multiple wipes. Granted, I've barely spent any time on >40 teams on HC, and exclusively PuG (when not solo)

3.) My Grav/Emp gets lots of praise, it's actually one of my favorite characters to team on, I like the hecticness of keeping Fortitude on half the team, Clear Mind on those that need it when needed, and using Heal Other when someone gets a bit too friendly with the locals. It reminds me of the fun of playing my Kinetics back before they made SB AoE, I had a bunch of binds set up for SBing / IDing team mates using a fair bit of bindloadfilesilent to switch around what my numpad did

 

16 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Some of us would like to play a Controller or a Defender without feeling utterly useless...

I always feel more useful on my trollers and doms than melee. Stalkers (after years of being feeling worthless) now feel the most useful of the DPS ATs to play, since I'm more selective with targets than Scrappers/Brutes, focusing on bosses or which ever ones are the biggest threats, and quickly downing them. Admittedly, 'tanking' is a role I have 0 interest in, in any MMO

20 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

there would need to be a Vanilla server put together

You can make that a reality. It'll just require legwork from those that desire that.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Sif said:

1.) Healer? In City of Heroes? I'm so confused

2.) My experience hasn't been teams playing only at +0, my experience has been typically +2 or +3, with half the team -1 due to being lower leveled, and teams are very hesitant to lower the difficulty, even after multiple wipes. Granted, I've barely spent any time on >40 teams on HC, and exclusively PuG (when not solo)

3.) My Grav/Emp gets lots of praise, it's actually one of my favorite characters to team on, I like the hecticness of keeping Fortitude on half the team, Clear Mind on those that need it when needed, and using Heal Other when someone gets a bit too friendly with the locals. It reminds me of the fun of playing my Kinetics back before they made SB AoE, I had a bunch of binds set up for SBing / IDing team mates using a fair bit of bindloadfilesilent to switch around what my numpad did

 

I always feel more useful on my trollers and doms than melee. Stalkers (after years of being feeling worthless) now feel the most useful of the DPS ATs to play, since I'm more selective with targets than Scrappers/Brutes, focusing on bosses or which ever ones are the biggest threats, and quickly downing them. Admittedly, 'tanking' is a role I have 0 interest in, in any MMO

You can make that a reality. It'll just require legwork from those that desire that.

I appreciate you coming back at me calmly despite my outburst. Much respect for that.

 

I'm gonna let this subject go though and leave it at that. Your last post was a great way to end the conversation.

[DR_Mechano]

I'm just talking from experience with regards the epeen waving statement ESPECIALLY when it comes from other MMOs. Most people want to do content that makes them feel better than 'the casuals' but don't want to do content that's explicitly the most difficult, they just want to be 'above' someone.  You keep saying you don't want to change the game but yet, here you are again, bemoaning the fact that the game is easy. If you didn't want to 'change the game' you'd just not say anything but...again...you bought up the whole 'the game is too easy'.

 

Plus I do have to question why people want to feel 'needed' and desire constant praise and reinforcement on that front. If my Fire/Dark controller is doing everything right, nobody needs to notice because I'm shutting down, immobilizing and otherwise debuffing mobs and the group carries on as always. When my Psi/Bio scrapper took over from our Brute after he went down on a +3 Dr Khan TF and proceeded to tank Reichsman for the remaining 25 minutes it took to drop his enormous health pool I was doing what needed to be done, I didn't expect praise for it (and didn't get it), I just kept aggro and pulled him away from the Brute so he could rez. As the quote from Futurama goes "if you've done everything right, people will think you've done nothing at all.." just do what you do and keep going.

 

Also if you want to do more difficult content, it is there, like it or not the option is there and the people constantly screaming for a global increase in difficulty never do it.

Edited February 23, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Solarverse]

30 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

I'm just talking from experience with regards the epeen waving statement ESPECIALLY when it comes from other MMOs. Most people want to do content that makes them feel better than 'the casuals' but don't want to do content that's explicitly the most difficult, they just want to be 'above' someone.  You keep saying you don't want to change the game but yet, here you are again, bemoaning the fact that the game is easy. If you didn't want to 'change the game' you'd just not say anything but...again...you bought up the whole 'the game is too easy'.

 

Plus I do have to question why people want to feel 'needed' and desire constant praise and reinforcement on that front. If my Fire/Dark controller is doing everything right, nobody needs to notice because I'm shutting down, immobilizing and otherwise debuffing mobs and the group carries on as always. When my Psi/Bio scrapper took over from our Brute after he went down on a +3 Dr Khan TF and proceeded to tank Reichsman for the remaining 25 minutes it took to drop his enormous health pool I was doing what needed to be done, I didn't expect praise for it (and didn't get it), I just kept aggro and pulled him away from the Brute so he could rez. As the quote from Futurama goes "if you've done everything right, people will think you've done nothing at all.." just do what you do and keep going.

 

Also if you want to do more difficult content, it is there, like it or not the option is there and the people constantly screaming for a global increase in difficulty never do it.

Yup, okay, done arguing about it, man. Like you said earlier, broken record, wall talking to a wall, going nowhere fast.

[Troo]

 

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

a growing number of players are wishing they had a better way to play the content, from start to finish, on a more challenging level.

Can folks really handle start to finish on a more challenging level?

 

Lets take the training wheels off and see how it goes.

• No P2W
• No base teleport macro exploit
• No startup funds
• No Architect Entertainment farming
• No temp powers

Feel free to use travel powers, pool powers, epic pools powers, side kicking, inspirations, enhancements, etc.

 

Maybe we should have an option at startup that enables this mode. It would be great to then kick it up and have Master mode. You die, you start over.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Troo

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Go play a Healer from level 1 to 50, join teams, start teams...and watch how if you crank the difficulty up past +0, people whine about it and drop your team. Join a team and watch how everyone plows through +0 mobs....you are not needed...not even a little bit. 

The game has always been easy at +0 with just SOs, and no AT has ever been needed. If those are your complaints, then why did you ever like the game?

[Solarverse]

41 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The game has always been easy at +0 with just SOs, and no AT has ever been needed. If those are your complaints, then why did you ever like the game?

Not ever, eh? Makes me wonder when you started playing.

[oedipus_tex]

What's interesting to me is there are so many ways the game could be hard. Check out the number of powers available in the AE that nobody ever gives custom mobs.

 

Arctic Air

Shiver

Power Sink

Thunderous Blast

Seeds of Confusion

Carrion Creepers

Benumb

Power of the Phoenix (I'd pay RL money to see this one)

 

 

Basically it's achievable. But there needs to be a reward structure in place.

 

I think sometimes we think too literally about "reward" means too. Just providing a badge is enough to tempt many players.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

Can folks really handle start to finish on a more challenging level?

 

Lets take the training wheels off and see how it goes.

• No P2W
• No base teleport macro exploit
• No startup funds
• No Architect Entertainment farming
• No temp powers

Feel free to use travel powers, pool powers, epic pools powers, side kicking, inspirations, enhancements, etc.

 

Maybe we should have an option at startup that enables this mode. It would be great to then kick it up and have Master mode. You die, you start over.

 

 

Troo, I get what you are trying to do man, honestly though, it simply would not be enough. Problem is (and I have stated this many times across multiple threads like this one) is that the people who prefer the game back the way it was BEFORE the power creep set in, are simply not enough to find one another in game. <----Pay close attention to this.

 

I have tried finding such players on my server. If you go to Excelsior server forums, you will see a thread that I started that requested this very thing. And then you can take a look at the replies. There simply is not enough interest. The players who would want this are too spread apart in a game teaming with players who love the power creep the game has grown in to. Which is why, the only REAL solution is for hopefully one day, a server gets created that mimics the mechanics of the game pre issue 5.

 

No amount of bashing me (not saying you, but others have) is going to change this fact. No amount of telling me how I should play to seek out my difficulty preference is going to change this. The game once had this difficulty that I prefered built in to it. You couldn't change the difficulty. The game came with that difficulty already and you either played using the game's natural difficulty, or you found a different game to play.

 

This game (upon release) was geared toward team play in order to get through the difficult content. No AT aside from Scrappers could really solo the content very easily. The game was by design, a game where each AT brought their specialty in order to fill in the gaps of the other ATs. This is no longer the case, and those of us who preferred it the way it once was, has been left behind.

 

I remember those days well, when players were coming to the forums and griping how hard the game was. The majority of players back then were on my side of this. However, players complained and they complained until finally the Devs started making things easier a little at a time, until now, the game is almost completely different. Not everybody wanted the game to be easier...but alas, here we are, and there is not a damn thing that can be done about. In fact, the mere mention of it gets several posters to come gang up on the person who mentions it. Notice I am by myself here making an argument vs several people who are jumping in on the band wagon? Yeah, it was just the opposite prior to the game being made easier for the people complaining in the old days.

 

Now we have people mencing words with me instead of actually focusing on the meaning behind my statements. For an example, me being told that, "No class was ever needed." Ha! In the literal term, I guess not. I don't "need" to breath either, I can just chose to die instead. However, taht would make life pretty damn difficult. Same with this game. You did not "need" a Tank, you did not "need" a Controller, you did not "need" a Defender, but man, they sure fit a well rounded team and made life a hell of a lot easier....proper team work and a well built team made all the difference in the world. Which has been my point....

 

Now...we don't just not "need" those classes, in fact, any class that is not a DPS class is really just tagging along. Now we can run lowbie content at +0 and smash through it all until we get IOs and then smash everything in our path once again, once again support classes being carried.

 

That's okay though, there is content that they can go play (what, less than 3% of the game's content?) and feel like they are actually contributing. Wow...Gee...thanks. But no thanks.

 

Even worse, as I have said MANY TIMES, I am not trying to change this game, I have made my motives clear, yet people on this very thread have STILL placed motives on me and claim that I just *must* be here for some other reason other than the reason I gave. And yet they call us the ones with the epeen.

 

The disgust with the people in this thread is real.

[Sif]

13 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Now...we don't just not "need" those classes, in fact, any class that is not a DPS class is really just tagging along.

The idea that Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators, and Masterminds are "just tagging along" is absolutely bonkers to me.

 

The only thing I can think is that you only (or nearly) play Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers, and you don't have any appreciation for how big of an impact all the other ATs are actually having - which I have to imagine can't be the case, so I don't understand how you could possibly think that. It's just so diametrically opposed to everything I've seen in CoH over the years.

[Alchemystic]

Today we witness Brute Mains in their natural habitat; the 'pls buff' thread. They are extremely territorial creatures that distrust one another, and are prone to hostility at the slightest provocation, often fighting over mere scraps of logic that are precious sustenance for their arguments.

 

In the event that one 'Alpha' Brute Main challenges another, a battle will ensue for several posts as a fight for domination. This fight can last for days and often there is no clear victor, and both Alphas retreat to their lair to lick their wounds ready for the next pointless spat when a new thread is inevitably created.

 

Brute Mains can easily be stunned if they are presented with an ultimatum; play actual challenging content. This paralyzing attack on their ego is enough to leave them confused and often they back away from such a challenge, afraid to surrender their position.

 

It is rare for a Brute Main to coexist with other players, as their need to be the apex predator encourages them to attack Tankers and Scrappers on sight, thinking them as unwelcome competition in their game. Defenders and Controllers are easy prey for these beasts, driving them out of their teams and into the wilds.

 

It is also rare to see a Brute Main domesticated, as their abandonment of sensibility only deters other players from adopting them into their pack, fearing that they will continue to bitch and whine even when they are presented with small buffs to their performance, and often feigning death cries when they are needed to be nerfed.

 

So remember, if you see a Brute Main in the wild, it's best to leave it well alone, and hope that it doesn't drag you into one of it's inane arguments.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Sif said:

The idea that Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators, and Masterminds are "just tagging along" is absolutely bonkers to me.

 

The only thing I can think is that you only (or nearly) play Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers, and you don't have any appreciation for how big of an impact all the other ATs are actually having - which I have to imagine can't be the case, so I don't understand how you could possibly think that. It's just so diametrically opposed to everything I've seen in CoH over the years.

Then we are playing two entirely different games. Let me give you a very realistic example:

 

You are playing as a Defender of your choice.

 

Toggle on a Debuff: watch mobs die before you can even finish the animation. If you are lucky enough to finish the animation, by the time you can do anything else, you find toggling on your debuff was pretty much all you could do before the mobs melt.

 

Apply a heal: Realize nobody needed it, you are just healing an already fully healed team, so it's just wasted endurance and even worse, a waste of time.

 

I know, we can give up our mundane efforts to Heal (because nobody needed it) and try to start DPSing instead, right?: You quickly see that your DPS numbers are insignificant in the whole scheme of things and come to realize that the mobs would have died just as fast without your feeble attempts to do damage.

 

But wait, I can still be of some use! I can buff the Tank/Brute/Scrapper/Stalker with my ubber shields! Nope, wait a sec, they are already at cap Defense/Resistance.

 

Well, poop, at least it will come in handy against mobs that debuff resistance and Defense, right? Nope, their defense is already high enough that defense debuffs wouldn't phase them, not to mention most shields have a debuff resist built in to them.

 

Well ffs!...now what?

 

If this is what you consider to be doing more than just tagging along....well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but any contribution you made to the team was minimal at best. I honestly feel that if you think you are doing anything more than what I have mentioned above, then you are very sadly having delusions of grandeur.

 

Now, does that scenario account for every single situation or task force in game? Of course not, this is not what I am trying to say, but what I am trying to say is that this is the case with a good majority of the game's content, all the way from level 1 to level 50.

 

And to answer your question, I play all classes in game except for Sentinels.

[Sif]

11 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Now, does that scenario account for every single situation or task force in game? Of course not, this is not what I am trying to say, but what I am trying to say is that this is the case with a good majority of the game's content, all the way from level 1 to level 50.

None of that's been even slightly my experience, absolutely not a "majority". I think this has to do with your playing with people that insist on going at +0 with fully IO'd builds at level 20.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Sif said:

None of that's been even slightly my experience, absolutely not a "majority". I think this has to do with your playing with people that insist on going at +0 with fully IO'd builds at level 20.

I did not say that in this particular thread, but I did recognize that and called it out on other threads similar to this one. So yes, I acknowledge that as being one of the culprits of my experiences in game. However, my experiences in game are not limited to just that one significant detail. There are a great number of contributors to the way I experience the game. And all point to the same conclusion...the only way to get back that feeling that I once loved, is if a server was made with the pre i5 mechanics. I don't want to change this server, because I would never leave this server. I enjoy and love what Homecoming has brought to the game, not to mention all of my friends are here. However, it would no longer be my primary server to play on if said Vanilla server were to be created.

 

I'm not even here to advocate for the OP of this thread, I simply pointed out the cause of the OPs issues and the only possible solution to his issues...and that solution does not reside with this server, because this server will not ever convert to the level of difficulty the OP and I seek without going to the AE building or playing the same ol missions week after week.

 

I think people in this thread think that I am backing up the OP, I am not. I am simply trying to put things in perspective...at least from my perspective anyway.

[Doc_Scorpion]

17 minutes ago, Sif said:

None of that's been even slightly my experience, absolutely not a "majority".

No offense meant, but do you even play the game?  Because that's solidly my experience on all my support toons.  (Seriously, "I haven't seen that so it can't possibly exist" is a poor foundation for an argument.)  And that's at high notoriety levels not the mythical "+0" strawman you keep invoking.

 

[lythy77]

give us a +8 option instead of a +4 but cap the inf at what it is now.

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, lythy77 said:

give us a +8 option instead of a +4 but cap the inf at what it is now.

I don't think the game scales right for +8

 

+5 would definitely work due to Level shift.  +6 might? work.  

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

What's interesting to me is there are so many ways the game could be hard. Check out the number of powers available in the AE that nobody ever gives custom mobs.

 

Arctic Air

Shiver

Power Sink

Thunderous Blast

Seeds of Confusion

Carrion Creepers

Benumb

Power of the Phoenix (I'd pay RL money to see this one)

 

 

Basically it's achievable. But there needs to be a reward structure in place.

 

I think sometimes we think too literally about "reward" means too. Just providing a badge is enough to tempt many players.

... .give me more slots and I can guarantee you'll see mobs with those. They'll probably be the least upvoted arcs, but still...

 

The mobs will have reason to have those, as well.

 

I'm also half tempted to see if people would be willing to play in (nearly) the conditions mentioned previously - let's call it classic mode. 1-50, TO/DO/SO only (or, rather, to avoid the annoyance factor of re-slotting constantly, TO/lv15 common IO/lvl 30 common IO only, for roughly the same strength.) Nice mixed team. (Or, hey, go Green Machine and break the game with what are essentially Regen Blasters.) P2W is fine, just skip the XP boosts (nobody's complaining about sands of mu....) and otherwise just play classically. Cash as it comes in.

[Infinitum]

9 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Now...we don't just not "need" those classes, in fact, any class that is not a DPS class is really just tagging along. Now we can run lowbie content at +0 and smash through it all until we get IOs and then smash everything in our path once again, once again support classes being carried.

Good luck doing that with the lady gray task force.