Focused Feedback: Shock Therapy (Build 1)

[johua]

I agree with an above post that advises against "reclaiming."

Saying that you're taking it back doesn't really do anything to assuage the negative connotations the name has with the people it has history with, and I too would advise against it.

If the abilities themselves are up for review and change, there's no reason the name can't be changed to something that doesn't have those negative connotations.

Also, the argument that "these other things are there, so we shouldn't change this new thing so that people will be more comfortable with it" is a bad argument.

[Errants]

57 minutes ago, GM Arcanum said:

Hey everyone!

I've seen a lot of players reporting some concerns about the name 'Shock Therapy', but I think its time to reclaim the word. As a mental health professional, IRL - I see a lot of negative connotation associated with the treatment, however, the fact is that ECT (Electroconvulsive Therapy) has seen progress since the 1930s when it was first developed (and obtained the stigma). The therapy is still used today in rare cases (mostly in Europe) and has had success in treating several forms of severe depression, manic behaviors and bipolar personality disorders. In response to the players out there who claim its being used in "Homophobic and Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies", those same programs also utilize Psychoanalytic and Behavioral therapies (Which are used to treat common problems such as phobias, depression disorders, anxiety disorders as well as assisting individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder improve their quality of life, just to name a few). 

The reality is that the term "Shock Therapy" isn't a 'bad' thing. Its like any other power in a world full of superpowered individuals - it comes down to how the hero...or villain...decides to use it!

Plus, let's be honest - we're running around with The 5th Column (AKA - Nazis). As well as slashing/hacking/beheading opponents with swords, guns and axes. Its a video game - let's just enjoy it and move on!

Wow, that's a not great answer from an authority figure. Kudos to you on wanting to reclaim it. However, it still has stigmas attached, there's multiple people uncomfortable with it (the fact there were THAT many comments on it in short order on the general and focused thread, and the knowledge that those who post on the forums are a subset of readers, who are a subset of players...), and I'm not sure that this is the best point/forum/hill to stand and attempt to reclaim an edge-case therapy with many issues of malpractice and stigmas. And, really, invoking Godwin's Law as a defense for the name?

And, yeah, it doesn't fit the thematic style naming of powersets in general. "Shock Therapy" sounds like a power, or a character name (i.e. Shock Treatment - BTW, a villain, who's more than a little crazy with multiple possibilities of diagnoses from DSM-5...). When most players think of a powerset, they think of the base component of it, and calling this "Electric Something" would evoke that more - Broadsword vs Disembowel, Assault Rifle vs Buckshot, Dark Miasma vs Twilight Grasp.

Here's (again) some alternate names, that both cover the cringe and thematic factors:

Quote

Ionic Balance

Electrical Support

Ionic Support

Sapping

Potentiated Support

Electrical Potential

Quote

Super Atom's:

Static Emission

Electric Resonance

Electric Affinity

Static Flow

 Or, stealing from both mine and Super Atom's: Electrical Affinity

 

Could also do Electric/Electrical Manipulation (much like Time Manipulation[Support] and Temporal Manipulation[Blaster]) even with Blasters having Electricity Manipulation.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Eran Rist

[Deathvirus]

I somehow accidentally posted feedback in the wrong channel.  Anyway after testing it I feel like the end drain is far too strong on such a low recharge in PvP.  I know it might not make it to live and I can certainly see why

[NNDeepdish]

People looking to get offended are always going to find what they're looking for.

 

I don't really care what happens regarding the name either way, but i'm betting the general population has absolutely no idea about.... whatever it is these "negative connotations are"

 

The powerset naming convention is a far better argument. If you really want to campaign for a name change, I'd use that to throw your vote.

 

Either way it's extremely nitpicky imo.

[Dropout]

ECT's progress as a treatment has no relevance to its historical use to torture marginalized persons, many of whom take solace in Superhero games like ours and don't appreciate being told what should and shouldn't upset them. So far the Homecoming team has been good at stamping out hate and will keep a close eye on the dog whistle potential of this name; insisting people just get over it is probably not necessary.

[johua]

8 minutes ago, NNDeepdish said:

People looking to get offended are always going to find what they're looking for.

 

I don't really care what happens regarding the name either way, but i'm betting the general population has absolutely no idea about.... whatever it is these "negative connotations are"

 

The powerset naming convention is a far better argument. If you really want to campaign for a name change, I'd use that to throw your vote.

 

Either way it's extremely nitpicky imo.

The negative connotations are that shock treatment was used as a form of conversion therapy on LGBT people.

Maybe this doesn't offend you, but several LGBT people who I know and love have expressed their discomfort and distaste toward the name.

It's not nitpicky. It's not unreasonable either, because it's not like this powerset is even in the live version of the game yet. It's a beta powerset, if the numbers can be changed, the name can be changed.

Edited February 25, 2020 by johua

[Sailboat]

3 hours ago, Eran Rist said:

Electrical Potentia

That sounds like a great name for the set, positive (heh) and better describing the buffing aspects of the set.

[Allenkenda]

1 hour ago, GM Arcanum said:

Hey everyone!

I've seen a lot of players reporting some concerns about the name 'Shock Therapy', but I think its time to reclaim the word. As a mental health professional, IRL - I see a lot of negative connotation associated with the treatment, however, the fact is that ECT (Electroconvulsive Therapy) has seen progress since the 1930s when it was first developed (and obtained the stigma). The therapy is still used today in rare cases (mostly in Europe) and has had success in treating several forms of severe depression, manic behaviors and bipolar personality disorders. In response to the players out there who claim its being used in "Homophobic and Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies", those same programs also utilize Psychoanalytic and Behavioral therapies (Which are used to treat common problems such as phobias, depression disorders, anxiety disorders as well as assisting individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder improve their quality of life, just to name a few). 

The reality is that the term "Shock Therapy" isn't a 'bad' thing. Its like any other power in a world full of superpowered individuals - it comes down to how the hero...or villain...decides to use it!

Plus, let's be honest - we're running around with The 5th Column (AKA - Nazis). As well as slashing/hacking/beheading opponents with swords, guns and axes. Its a video game - let's just enjoy it and move on!

 

Congrats. This is your first experience as a professional company making a statement that will be viewed as speaking on behalf of all of HC Leadership while also being drastically in the wrong. Every company trying to go legit hits this wall- This is your wall. How Leadership handles this going forwards will set a tone on whether or not certain segments of this community can trust you or believe you're acting in good faith. 

 

Let's be clear here: Was your statement vetted by other members of leadership? Is this you speaking on behalf of HC as a non-profit but still corporate entity? If the answer to this is no, you shouldn't have made this statement. This is a pretty serious issue whether you like it or not that in the next 24-48 hours absolutely could blow up and see coverage on gaming media outlets. You should go, right now to  HC's leadership and ask them if your statement holds true to the values and public-facing strategy you want going forwards. If you didn't vet this, let it be a strong, one-time lesson: Do Not Comment On Matters Of This Level Of Controversialness Without Approval.  You're going to get a ton of flak here- Because you're wrong, bluntly. You cannot reclaim the term in this way. This isn't a good avenue to do that, this isn't a good look, and it reflects extremely poorly on you as an entity. There's discords buzzing all over right now where people who have experienced the trauma associated with ECT talking about how they're uncomfortable with this and your statement, plus attempting to 'crowd control' people into this thread instead of the main patch notes thread. You're handling this badly. Step back and consult with your direct superiors. 

 

I have family who experienced the horrors of this therapy in the 1960s and 70s; The very term makes them anxious and can cause them to have a panic attack. It's an extremely, extremely loaded term for a lot of people. It still affects groups like LGBTQ+ groups today. It was and is a monstrous therapy with limited, limited real world use (I'm not saying it has none, I'm saying there's a reason it's been rebranded away from being called Shock Therapy. It's a bad term with extreme baggage attached that will probably never be seen in a positive light ever again.)

 

tldr: Don't make statements like this when you should know better. If you're speaking on behalf of HC, you should be prepared for press reachouts on this topic really, really soon. Change the name, don't make this harder than it has to be.

[Auroxis]

The Static mechanic needs some work. IMO you should have at least a couple powers that build up static while feeling impactful at a given situation (pre-combat, combat, defensive, offensive), let's take a look at what we currently have:

 

A defensive debuff power (does nothing if your team is surviving just fine)

A Heal power (does nothing if no heal is needed)

A +Absorb power (does nothing if your team isn't taking damage)

A Damage buff (does nothing if you cast it more than once every 25 seconds)

A +Endurance power (does nothing if your teammates sustain themselves)

 

ALL of the static builders are likely to have zero impact outside of building static points unless you're on the defensive. This makes the Static mechanic feel like it's encouraging me to play sub-optimally.

 

What I suggest (no need to implement all, just a couple are fine):

 

Shock - Give it something that makes it good to spam against mobs (-res or even damage). We still want to blast mobs with our secondary, but being able to stay offensive while building static stacks is important.

 

Rejuvenating Circuit - Gives the target endurance (consolidate with energizing circuit)

 

Energizing Circuit - See above, replace with something that's relevant at more situations

 

Insulating Circuit - I think this is powerful enough.

 

Empowering Circuit - Double its recharge, make it stack, and tone it down to +30% from +40%

 

As for spenders:

 

Discharge - Gives you a regen buff and the enemies a regen debuff.

 

Amp Up - Increase its recharge buff (+31.5% at max stacks is too low)

Edited February 25, 2020 by Auroxis

[Bossk_Hogg]

Can we maybe move the name feedback to another thread to keep this a bit more focused?

[NNDeepdish]

1 minute ago, johua said:

The negative connotations are that shock treatment was used as a form of conversion therapy on LGBT people.

Maybe this doesn't offend you, but several LGBT people who I know and love have expressed their discomfort and distaste toward the name.

It's not nitpicky. It's not unreasonable either, because it's not like this powerset is even in the live version of the game yet. It's a beta powerset, if the numbers can be cahnged, the name can be changed.

Not sure what point you're making here other than giving me your opinion that it's not nitpicky. My opinion is that it is. Nothing I've said is any different.

[Draeth Darkstar]

First, I agree that the set needs to be renamed, please. 

 

Overall feedback:

 

I love electric powers and I think this set fills a needed conceptual gap in the game. Chaining electricity is cool from a thematic and aesthetic standpoint.

 

I do not like the implementation. Support sets in this game need to be able to support very large numbers of targets and this one just does not do that. A variable, finicky target cap that maxes out at 8 and requires micromanagement will make this set endlessly frustrating on mid-sized and larger mission teams and essentially useless for multi-group content. At high levels every player has Lore pets, many have Patton and Control pets, and some Masterminds can exceed this target cap alone. This is compounded by the fact that all of these chaining powers have diminished effects per target hit and the player has no control over who gets hit at all, much less in what order.

 

There are also way too many powers that require an ally target. This set is essentially unusable solo at a total of 3 powers that don't require an ally target.

 

A set that is bad alone and bad with more than a handful of allies is not filling a niche that needs to be filled. Even if these were consistently all the best support powers in the game by the numbers, I would never play this set as it currently exists because of the targeting.

 

Power specific feedbac:

 

Shock: Please change this to the T2 power. Being forced into this power on a non-Defender is going to be as bad as Force Bolt and Gale. It could really use some -Regen or -Resist. Single target end drain is not worth a power pick in PVE. 

 

Rejuvenating Circuit: Needs to be usable without a target and have no target cap or a much higher one with no diminishing effect.

 

Discharge: Honestly worse than Shock, I would still never take this power. It needs a very strong offensive debuff if it's supposed to be worth losing Static charges.

 

Empowering Circuit: This is kind of like Forge, which is okay, I guess. I'd be more interested if it affected the caster.

 

Faraday Cage: Would be much more usable as a toggle. I can't see myself ever bothering with it as a ground effect. Too situational and too annoying to make work with pets or groups.

 

Insulating Circuit: Aside from my overall problems with the targeting scheme, this seems fine.

 

Defibrilate: The idea of losing my Static charges because somebody else messed up and needs a rez feels terrible. The utility of an AoE rez isn't worth the tradeoff. Dark Miasma's is worth using even without someone to rez around, this power isn't worth using over an Awaken.

 

Energizing Circuit: This is just a sad, sad version of Transference that I, again, can't see why I'd ever use as-is. I'm not about to monitor other people's end bars for them, and even if I were I can't pick who it hits.

 

Amp Up: If this power was a big AoE buff, it would be worthy of being a T9. As is it's too situational and it costs too much in the situations it's good in for me to ever want to use it.

 

I'm sorry that this feedback is so critical. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. I think the set is a good addition from a conceptual standpoint, but I really, really feel that the execution needs to be taken back to the drawing board. It's a super busy, click heavy set that is seriously lacking in mechanical payoff for all of the effort it expects to have put into it. It's weak for soloing and weak beyond 8 friendly targets, and it doesn't have especially powerful effects in it even under its rare, ideal circumstances. I just can't see why I would ever pick it over anything but Force Fields, and that's really not a good place to be. 

[skoryy]

We already have a villain in-game named Shock Treatment.

 

We also have Pain Domination which is literally abuse as a powerset.

 

Ninjas, Tsoo, and the Family all trading on cultural stereotypes.

 

Dual Pistols and Assault Rifles are NRA approved.

 

I mean if y'all really want to have Discourse(tm) about problematic stuff, we can have that discussion.

[Errants]

16 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Can we maybe move the name feedback to another thread to keep this a bit more focused?

This is the thread for feedback on the powerset - seems to me that would include the name. Moving comments/complaints about the new support set from the general patch notes thread and into the focused thread? Legit. Moving specific complaints about the new powerset's name out from the focused thread and into an even MORE focused thread? Burying noise and minimizing visibility.

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

But then how will I be able to feign outrage for no real gain? 

The people complaining about it seem to strictly be focusing on the misuse of the treatment, and not it's legitimate value as a last-resort.

Yes, historical misuse of treatment. Still misused as a treatment. Yes, it has valid uses in limited and last resort situations - much like medicinal methamphetamines, alcohol, and leeches.

 

If Electroconvulsive Therapy is so uncharged (versus Shock Therapy), why not just change the name to that?

[skoryy]

Hey, did everyone know that redside missions are your character working in service of a fascist organization trying to rule the world?

[Errants]

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

We already have a villain in-game named Shock Treatment.

Yeah, noted, and not exactly a positive thing - especially as she exhibits symptoms that ECT might be used for.

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

We also have Pain Domination which is literally abuse as a powerset.

That's consensual. You can always boot them from your team. And some people like it to hurt.

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Ninjas, Tsoo, and the Family all trading on cultural stereotypes.

You're not wrong there. Trading on both cultural stereotypes as well as popular culture. Don't forget the homeless, the disenfranchised, the addicted, and the military, with others.

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Dual Pistols and Assault Rifles are NRA approved.

Show me the NRA-endorsed Equilibrium/John Wu Pistol, and working Frankengun (No, the K11 doesn't count).

 

You're right, there are some problematics parts of the game's lore. Why add to them, when it is as simple as changing a name?

 

2 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Hey, did everyone know that redside missions are your character working in service of a fascist organization trying to rule the world?

Yup, suspension of disbelief, mate. I don't think I actually can run 55 MPH, sprout spines, or teleport... Nor do I think I'm going to try and take over the world.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Eran Rist

[johua]

2 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Hey, did everyone know that redside missions are your character working in service of a fascist organization trying to rule the world?

"what about..." really isn't a good argument.

[Trickshooter]

Only had enough time to jump on and check out the visuals tonight.

 

I guess it's basically what I was expecting, but maybe a little too similar to Electrical Blast. Is there any way to improve the electrical effects to differentiate it more? Maybe additional particle effects or using the air-sizzling glow of the Cabal electrical blasts instead?

 

Also, wow, Faraday Cage is very distracting. Can the movements of the sphere be slowed down at all?

[ScarySai]

It just occurred to me, but a minFX variant of Faraday's Cage would be very nice.

[Alexandria Ward]

I agree with the sentiment that Shock should be the T2. I enjoyed the overall flow of the set, but it does feel rather busy upon first impressions. Faraday Cage would be more useful as a toggle, as others have stated. The cooldown on Amp Up is a bit long for something that can't particularly be enhanced (I didn't see if it accepts any sets? I don't think it did, in which case, slap a recharge in it and be done with it??)

 

Is it intentional that the chain abilities don't affect the caster at all or is that an early bug? From the sound of the descriptions it seems intentional, but that feels like an oversight for the set. If the abilities don't affect the caster at all, this set has little to no solo potential. IMHO, the chain abilities should have the option to not need a target to cast, which would cast it on the player at half effectiveness, OR have it jump to your target for the full effectiveness with the potential to jump to the caster.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Auren

[oedipus_tex]

First of all I am so excited to see a new powerset! Thank you to the development team for taking the time to build a new set. This is a thrilling day and I can't wait to check it out.

 

RE: the name. I'm a gay man (not that it gives me jurisdiction). The words "shock therapy" don't have any particularly connotation to me, altho I don't love the name of the set either. It reminds me of the name of the Rocky Horror PIcture Show sequel. It sounds like a fine name for a power, but to me, not a set. Electric Affinity best matches the buff/debuff set names overall. (There's also the strange "-Domination" suffix used for Cold Domination and Pain Domination despite the set not being available to Dominators.)

 

I'll have more to report once I check the set out here.

 

By the way happy Mardi Gras from New Orleans. What a great carnival surprise!

 

[csr]

Count me in the NO column for the name "Shock Therapy".

[Hiyori]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

First of all I am so excited to see a new powerset! Thank you to the development team for taking the time to build a new set. This is a thrilling day and I can't wait to check it out.

 

RE: the name. I'm a gay man (not that it gives me jurisdiction). The words "shock therapy" don't have any particularly connotation to me, altho I don't love the name of the set either. It reminds me of the name of the Rocky Horror PIcture Show sequel. It sounds like a fine name for a power, but to me, not a set. Electric Affinity best matches the buff/debuff set names overall. (There's also the strange "-Domination" suffix used for Cold Domination and Pain Domination despite the set not being available to Dominators.)

 

I'll have more to report once I check the set out here.

 

By the way happy Mardi Gras from New Orleans. What a great carnival surprise!

 

I was actually going to write this from the exact same stance. Gay, doesn't bother me at all. But also think it doesn't fit the game's naming conventions either. Electric Affinity sounds fine and dandy and nice and neutral.

[Blackfeather]

Just now, Tsurupettan said:

I was actually going to write this from the exact same stance. Gay, doesn't bother me at all. But also think it doesn't fit the game's naming conventions either. Electric Affinity sounds fine and dandy and nice and neutral.

I'm in the "fine with it, if there's a cooler sounding name, go for it" camp myself.

[DMW45]

3 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm in the "fine with it, if there's a cooler sounding name, go for it" camp myself.

Same