How I would solve Power Creep

[Shred Monkey]

 

 It’s pretty frequent to find posts that either start out as, or end up as, discussions related to power creep. 

“Scrappers aren’t needed because Blasters do more damage and don’t die.”

“Tanks aren’t needed.”

“Crowd control and debuffs don’t help because everything dies too fast.”

… it goes on and on like this all over this forum.

 

It’s all basically the same problem.  The endgame is too easy.  But how do we fix that?  I don’t like artificially handicapping players is a solution.  What's the point in working for power if the game turns it off.  Pumping up the current enemy groups hp and damage would make the game harder, but that's boring.  Plus, we’re trying to preserve the live game we love, and just cranking up the difficulty for all will turn a lot of people off.

 

So here’s my solution:  New level 53+ elite bosses for every villain group.

 

Imagine if every group with level 53+ enemies had a chance for 0-2 elite bosses in their normal spawns that really fight back.   I don’t want 30,000 bags of HP like AVs and I’m not a fan of tier 9 godmode powers on enemies (cyclops and minotaur).  But adding elite bosses with thematic powers and costume/names to the regular enemy groups would be a great way to ramp up the difficulty of the endgame without affecting the rest of the game.  

 

Think of the difference between longbow and council.  It’s basically the Wardens and their buffs/debuffs and powers that make Longbow harder.  Imagine if every villain group had new elite bosses that had a chance spawn instead of the regular bosses and these guys actually fought back with thematic powers the way a Longbow Warder does?  If you’re not ready for them, keep your team at under level 53 and you’ll not spawn them.  But when you’re ready, then turn up the difficulty and maybe have an actual challenge for once.  

 

I think it is important is that it’s not removing aspects or changing the existing game.  I desperately want to avoid that.  But it does *add* to the existing game at the highest difficulty levels, which is sorely needed.

 

I could also see this as something that only spawns if there's incarnates in your team (like void bringers) but that seems like a complicated solution that ends up with about the same result as just using a level 53 cap. 

[MunkiLord]

I love this idea.

[Obus Form]

I think those elite mobs, to make them actually elite, could either have "Ignore defense" or "ignore armor" such that sometimes, certain powersets really need the help of CC to engage... just like the old ways. 

[Sarrate]

2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

Imagine if every group with level 53+ enemies had a chance for 0-2 elite bosses in their normal spawns that really fight back.   I don’t want 30,000 bags of HP like AVs and I’m not a fan of tier 9 godmode powers on enemies (cyclops and minotaur).  But adding elite bosses with thematic powers and costume/names to the regular enemy groups would be a great way to ramp up the difficulty of the endgame without affecting the rest of the game.  

 

Think of the difference between longbow and council.  It’s basically the Wardens and their buffs/debuffs and powers that make Longbow harder.  Imagine if every villain group had new elite bosses that had a chance spawn instead of the regular bosses and these guys actually fought back with thematic powers the way a Longbow Warder does?  If you’re not ready for them, keep your team at under level 53 and you’ll not spawn them.  But when you’re ready, then turn up the difficulty and maybe have an actual challenge for once.  

I'll be honest, I have not experienced super high end play here on Homecoming (highest I got back on Live was Alpha and Judgement slotted, and I haven't even hit 50 yet here), so what I'm going to say may be completely off base with how things play out at that level. However, prior to being fully Incarnated, Longbow weren't scarier than Council because of Wardens, it's because the various Longbow mobs packed a wider variety of debuffs that could likely find a chink in a player's armor somewhere... with special mention to Nullifiers who with their unresistible, AoE -res. The fact that they're lieutenants made them in a way, worse because there would be so many of them.

 

There are a lot of groups designed this way, where any individual enemy isn't scary, but when engaging a large group, their number of buffs/debuffs could overwhelm.

 

... having said that, it only works if mobs live long enough for their effects to stack like that.

 

Even EBs, unless their stats were ridiculous (high hp, high defense, high resistance, high regen/healing, some combination of these), I imagine they'd be killed pretty quickly. If AoE spam took out most of the rest of the spawn, then the whole group would focus down EBs fairly quick.

 

If you can figure out a way for mobs to last long enough, I think the most interesting option is to distribute the power throughout the enemy rosters. Maybe by giving enemies conditional powers if certain criteria are met. (Longbow, for example, gain more powers as levels rise. They get Beanbag at lvl30+ and Sonic Grenade / Concussion at lvl40+.) It also gives players more ways to deal with problems (CC / focus down priority targets? Divide spawns so AoE buffs/debuffs are less effective? etc).

 

37 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

I think those elite mobs, to make them actually elite, could either have "Ignore defense" or "ignore armor" such that sometimes, certain powersets really need the help of CC to engage... just like the old ways. 

I think "ignore powers players have invested in" is something that should be used sparingly. Nullifiers having Sonic Grenade is unique, and makes them a priority target. If every Longbow with a gun had it, it would feel cheap.

[MunkiLord]

@Sarrate, you bring up excellent points and for long term goals I 100% agree. Shred Monkey's suggestion would be more of a hotfix since I think it would be easier to implement(though I absolutely don't know that for a fact). 

 

As for your disclaimer, the only real difference between as high as you got with Alpha and Judgement compared to having everything unlocked and maxed is enemies die even faster. That's really about it. So your previous experience is a relevant and applicable as those of us that have maxed out characters completely.

[Troo]

Good suggestion in how it is adding endgame while trying not to impact the rest of the game. Also, I totally agree about giant hp bags don't add much.

 

New characters, costumes and power combos for each level 50 group is no trivial amount of work. Maybe it could be farmed out to active AE content creators.

 

Question - At +4x8 with level shift, is there any point to minions?

[Monos King]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

Question - At +4x8 with level shift, is there any point to minions?

Whoa that's an interesting thought. Removing the minion rank at certain difficulties. Either not spawning certain minions at all, or upgrading them; making sappers Lieutenants or something?

[MunkiLord]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

Question - At +4x8 with level shift, is there any point to minions?

I see a use for enemies like Sappers, even though they don't stick around very long. The only other real reason to keep them around is mobs of all lieutenants and bosses wouldn't take much longer to kill, in general, but would give significantly higher rewards. For salvage and recipe drops I think that would be fine, but I do think all the extra influence would likely have long term negative impact on the economy.

[Troo]

I wasn't thinking of replacing minions with lieutenants. That would.. (insert munki post here)  =)

[EmmySky]

Why not throw a curve ball at incarnate players and give minions a special something.  If you run at x8 there are tons of those suckers and if, say, every third minion had something that cut you like a knife it might require a little thought.  And make them a surprise maybe, like you cant tell which ones it will be so you end up mobbed and struggling before you realize it.

 

I mainly solo, so I haven't experienced roflstomp teams as much as most of y'all (except beta stress testing) so my opinion is far from *in practice*.  Also, as much as I love my priority target binds, I think that just adds to the steamroll effect if you can pick out the big bad, especially if there is only one big bad, and eliminate him before he threatens the team.

 

For solo play like I do, I like the idea of an EB to challenge me one on one, just not sure it would even slow down a team.

[Caulderone]

I suggested this in the Incarnate weekly post a couple weeks back.

 

Change the Alpha from +1 level shift to +1 Incarnate shift and give us back +4 vs L45+ non-incarnate content without unslotting Alpha.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Caulderone

[Infinitum]

On 2/28/2020 at 4:37 PM, Infinitum said:

Its similar to a plan ive been pitching, have a difficulty option called incarnate mode.

 

It places a hardened EB in most spawns with additional bosses as support also.

 

The EB will have mechanics like battle maiden in the apex TF That drops or engages random unresistable damage so you can't just sit still and fight static and literally nobody would be safe while that EB stands because of the unresistable damage. 

 

It would also increase value of ranged, buff and debuffs in that team environment.

 

I personally find the Apex rewarding, chaotic and fun.  This would apply that to the entirety of the game without having to redesign anything really because all the elements are already there.

lol been there done that myself

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

It’s all basically the same problem.  The endgame is too easy. 

It's not just the endgame.  It starts in the teens and really ramps up in the twenties and thirties as people start getting enough slots across enough powers to slot set IO's.

[golstat2003]

25 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

I suggested this in the Incarnate weekly post a couple weeks back.

 

Change the Alpha from +1 level shift to +1 Incarnate shift and give us back +4 vs L45+ non-incarnate content without unslotting Alpha.

Disagree. I DO NOT think it's a good idea to mess with incarnate powers that players have already got. I would prefer they add OPTIONAL difficulty increases for those who want that challenge.

Edited March 16, 2020 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

16 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's not just the endgame.  It starts in the teens and really ramps up in the twenties and thirties as people start getting enough slots across enough powers to slot set IO's.

And i'm fine with that. You SHOULD increase in power in the 20s and 30s as you are getting more experience as a hero/villian.

[Doc_Scorpion]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

And i'm fine with that. You SHOULD increase in power in the 20s and 30s as you are getting more experience as a hero/villian.

That sound you heard is my point going by ten thousand feet over your head.  Power creep is a problem, and it's not limited to the endgame as the OP surmises.  The problem isn't characters increasing in power, it's characters increasing in power faster than the game increases in difficulty.

[golstat2003]

Just now, Doc_Scorpion said:

That sound you heard is my point going by ten thousand feet over your head.  Power creep is a problem, and it's not limited to the endgame as the OP surmises.  The problem isn't characters increasing in power, it's characters increasing in power faster than the game increases in difficulty.

I got your point. I'm fine with the situation as is, for the mid game. That's not an issue for what this game is. We can agree to disagree.

[Darkneblade]

Can we add hidden enemies like stalkers? as ambushes I mean since putting hidden enemy out in the open seems kinda pointless. And maybe a way to hide enemy rank because why not ? 

[Caulderone]

36 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Disagree. I DO NOT think it's a good idea to mess with incarnate powers that players have already got. I would prefer they add OPTIONAL difficulty increases for those who want that challenge.

What I am proposing is the definition of optional difficulty increase.

 

Current Incarnate content with +1 level shift is identical with +1 incarnate shift.

Current +4 with +1 level shift = +3.  So, anyone wanting to maintain current difficulty can just choose +3 now.

Folks who want more challenge get +4 with the Alpha slotted.

Folks who want even more challenge can choose +4 without Alpha slotted.

Tada!  Completely optional difficulty increases for those who want it with current difficulty as an option.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

What I am proposing is the definition of optional difficulty increase.

 

Current Incarnate content with +1 level shift is identical with +1 incarnate shift.

Current +4 with +1 level shift = +3.  So, anyone wanting to maintain current difficulty can just choose +3 now.

Folks who want more challenge get +4 with the Alpha slotted.

Folks who want even more challenge can choose +4 without Alpha slotted.

Tada!  Completely optional difficulty increases for those who want it with current difficulty as an option.

Optional would be moving it into a new difficulty option that folks can select.

[MTeague]

As long as it's not forced on anyone just because they have incarnate powers, I'd like it.  Sure, your brute may romp through things nonstomp smashing away.  But there's a variety of lower damaging powersets, that may get overwhelmed if soloing and they no longer have an option to do the currently-exiting options without downgrading some incarnate powers. 

[MunkiLord]

44 minutes ago, MTeague said:

As long as it's not forced on anyone just because they have incarnate powers, I'd like it.  Sure, your brute may romp through things nonstomp smashing away.  But there's a variety of lower damaging powersets, that may get overwhelmed if soloing and they no longer have an option to do the currently-exiting options without downgrading some incarnate powers. 

I consider most Brutes lower damage powersets. Scrappers4Life!!!!!

[Call Me Awesome]

2 hours ago, Darkneblade said:

Can we add hidden enemies like stalkers? as ambushes I mean since putting hidden enemy out in the open seems kinda pointless. And maybe a way to hide enemy rank because why not ? 

Maybe, but then they'd appear in Kill All missions.  It's enough of a PITA to find that last mob without also having that last mob or group invisible.  If you have a mob invisible I can almost guarantee that it'll spawn in an out of the way location and get missed, then you go up the elevator and the ambush chase gets broken.  Or it doesn't aggro on you in the first place.

 

Of course the solution is to eliminate all Kill All missions from the game, with extreme prejudice.  Particularly in blue caves. 

 

On the whole power creep problem we could have mobs start getting a small buff as we go up in level, maybe they stay as is until 30 then get slightly stronger each level up to 54?  A straight damage increase of 1% per level from 31-54?  Increasing their to hit penalizes defense builds more than others but possibly a simple accuracy increase so that at 54 each mob's accuracy bonus is one rank higher?  A simple HP increase just increases the tedium of pounding on a bag of HP but a proportional, minor increase per level will keep pace with player improvement.  I'm not sure how doable this may be with our current game however.

[Haijinx]

Give some Bosses Vengeance

 

[Caulderone]

20 hours ago, Caulderone said:

Change the Alpha from +1 level shift to +1 Incarnate shift and give us back +4 vs L45+ non-incarnate content without unslotting Alpha.

I just posted a related idea in another thread on Incarnate EBs.

 

How about an option to disable the level shift and incarnate shifts in the Incarnate menu.  This would give those of us who want it back the option to do actual +4 normal mobs, and we could increase difficulty on Incarnate story arcs, too.