Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[ForeverLaxx]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

lmao ok. I guess we can just agree to disagree and just move on before either of us just say the same thing a hundred times.

I don't agree to anything, but it's very clear you never had the intention of being rational. I'm moving on for that reason.

[SwitchFade]

11 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

When theres ten million LOTG procs and nothing else? Yes. It's a bad thing.

I'm sorry, thTs not how economics works and that's not a bad thing.

 

If there is a surplus of one good (LoTG) they will sit unsold until they fall to a low enough price they sell. That's equilibrium. If there were 9,999,999 LoTG they would go down to 10k each (example) and they would then be cheap, where something that is in shortage would be expensive.

 

People could them buy the cheap good, convert it to expensive good. It is effective and working as intended.

 

So, the reason there are many LoTG at 8 million each, is because supply and demand have hit equilibrium there.

 

Don't believe me? Convince a Dev to seed the market, 10,000,000 LoTG and watch what happens.

[DMW45]

Further, the implication (and later outright admission) that people just using the 2x influence system to get 2x influence were somehow 'abusing' it feels like a misstep as well, and rubbed me the wrong way.

[Super Atom]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

I'm sorry, thTs not how economics works and that's not a bad thing.

 

If there is a surplus of one good (LoTG) they will sit unsold until they fall to a low enough price they sell. That's equilibrium. If there were 9,999,999 LoTG they would go down to 10k each (example) and they would then be cheap, where something that is in shortage would be expensive.

 

People could them buy the cheap good, convert it to expensive good. It is effective and working as intended.

 

So, the reason there are many LoTG at 8 million each, is because supply and demand have hit equilibrium there.

 

Don't believe me? Convince a Dev to seed the market, 10,000,000 LoTG and watch what happens.

No i believe you switch, my point wasn't so much price but more that forcing everyone to buy procs and convert them to the other parts of the set seemed like a bigger issue than the procs being expensive.

[Abraxus]

Ya'll know that if the Devs say it's an exploit, and that exploits are something they said they would be removing when it was possible, and convenient, and they do it, they are just living up to their previous word, right?  That you don't agree with their definition..well, while I empathize, in the big picture, you can feel about it how you like.  But, this is their world, and they define what is, and is not an exploit.  They also determine the timing, and the manner whereby they are addressed.

 

Just as in the days of live, the folks providing the servers, and writing the code get to determine how it goes.  Our only place in the process is to decide whether or not, after 7 years of not having the game to play at all, if this is the final straw, and it's just over for you.  I think that would be a bit of an overreaction, but that is everyone's choice, every day.  I also don't think this is going to have the degree of impact that folks are attributing to it, because in all honesty, the numbers of folks who had the benefit of this exploit are the smaller percentage of players.  The majority, who typically don't even express an opinion on things like this, just play, because the game is fun.  They don't get bogged down in the stats, or the finances.  They just play, and likely won't notice anything but the cool new powerset, and power pool that's now available. 

That's where I am.  I make INF where I can, but it is not, and never has been the defining factor in why I play, or how I play.  I'm sorry if that is the make-or-break to why some play, and if you make a compelling enough debate, who knows.  Perhaps some kind of compromise can be reached.  But, the accusations that there was subterfuge, or duplicitous in nature.  That's just not the case.

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, mrultimate said:

I think this was an outstanding update with the exception of this nerf. I don't have to like it and I don't.

Just going to quote this; it captures my feelings about it quite well. There's quite a bit to love about this update. There's one thing that I strongly dislike, and while it's a shame that it turned this thread into such a mess, it's not exactly hard to predict that things would go this way.

 

As I said before, it impacts my non-farming characters more because I tended to play them on TFs rather than farm - I find farming tedious, but far less so than market-converter-bingo. And yes, prices are lower than they were 10 years ago and won't ever get to the hundreds of millions per IO due to multiple effects that bring prices down, even if inflation ran as far as it would go you still have at worst the inf-to-merit-to-recipe conversion where nothing goes above 100 mil. Which is why I don't understand the point behind the inf change - inflation was already capped.

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

No i believe you switch, my point wasn't so much price but more that forcing everyone to buy procs and convert them to the other parts of the set seemed like a bigger issue than the procs being expensive.

Could be, but the alternative is no conversion and 200mill per io, like live.

 

Converters do allow us to convert one to another, and even if it's only working at 90% good, it's still 90% better than no converters at all.

 

To be clear though, I don't think the idea is to force anyone to convert, but to give them a way to make one good into another. A side effect is, sometimes everyone converts chasing profit, making LoTG the surplus, which in Turn causes me to buy the LoTG to convert to steadfast. Sure, it costs a little time, but the net result is all goods are cheaper because ALL goods are now a substitute normal good 

 

Substitutable goods in a market always cause the goods that are substitutable to be lower cost.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Abraxus said:

Ya'll know that if the Devs say it's an exploit, and that exploits are something they said they would be removing when it was possible, and convenient, and they do it, they are just living up to their previous word, right?  That you don't agree with their definition..well, while I empathize, in the big picture, you can feel about it how you like.  But, this is their world, and they define what is, and is not an exploit.  They also determine the timing, and the manner whereby they are addressed.

Go back and look at what they called the exploit, and what they changed. It's not a one-to-one, and they said as much.

 

 

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

Could be, but the alternative is no conversion and 200mill per io, like live.

Only if people are stupid, you can buy any IO for at most 100 mill + cost of salvage.

[DMW45]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

Could be, but the alternative is no conversion and 200mill per io, like live.

That's a false choice, they could easily make IOs act like salvage does on the market already, and keep IO prices down, but for some reason they love marketers.

[Super Atom]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

Could be, but the alternative is no conversion and 200mill per io, like live.

 

Converters do allow us to convert one to another, and even if it's only working at 90% good, it's still 90% better than no converters at all.

 

To be clear though, I don't think the idea is to force anyone to convert, but to give them a way to make one good into another. A side effect is, sometimes everyone converts chasing profit, making LoTG the surplus, which in Turn causes me to buy the LoTG to convert to steadfast. Sure, it costs a little time, but the net result is all goods are cheaper because ALL goods are now a substitute normal good 

 

Substitutable goods in a market always cause the goods that are substitutable to be lower cost.

Certainly, converters are/were a good idea to help people stay in the running. I don't think it was meant for everyone to run out and convert every defense IO to a LOTG proc and repeat with every other Proc but it's what happened. Procs got less expensive but the other parts got way more expensive and kind of balanced it out. It's an issue that needs to be adressed and an issue that is going to be worse if they keep trying to find ways to zap influence gain, i don't really consider double inf being reduced as them doing that but the amount of people who blindly support everything they do seem to be encouraging it. It's that part i don't like, I don't want to buy a LOTG proc to slot a red fortune every single time and i'm sure people who try out city of heroes would be instantly turned off it made to do so. (The last part is a bit of an exagg but you know what im driving at)

[Coyotedancer]

13 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I'm very sorry you feel that way, but you may have misread. You stated that marketeering is bad/problematic/an issue, which it is not.  Economics doesn't work that way.

Actually, no. I didn't. 

 

What I SAID was that marketeering was, along with farming, something that drove the perception of "I must do [X] to make progress in this game instead of just playing regular content!" that Jimmy and the others seem to want to curb. 

 

They target farming as one thing that causes the 'haves and have-nots' issue. I was just pointing out that marketeering ALSO plays a role.

 

That's all.

No "OMGMarketeers are EBIL"... 

No "You're wrecking things by marketeering"...

None of that.

 

Just a reminder that farming isn't the only thing minting top hats and monocles, and that if they want to curb the impression that regular play isn't enough, they'll probably have to look at that source of wealth-accumulation, too. 

[Lockpick]

I want to thank the dev team for all the work they do voluntarily.   This patch looks great and you guys are doing a fantastic job.  Thank you so much for all your efforts.

 

CoH was my first MMO and I loved playing it.  When it first came out it provided a welcome distraction that got me through some hard times.  When it went away I was upset with NCSOFT and when HC brought it back my happiness was stratospheric and I was extremely grateful.  It has been less than a year and already people have lost their sense of gratitude and seem to feel entitled.

 

It is disheartening for me to see this thread devolve in this manner.  It reminds me of 9/11 when everyone pulled together at first and a few years later everyone was back to their partisan bickering.  Now we have a virus killing people and the economy is tanking.  This game provides a welcome distraction during these trying times and instead of being grateful for the work that the dev team does voluntarily on behalf of the CoH community we have the arguments and bickering.  It is unreal to me.

 

Please take a deep breath and think about what is going on in the world now.  Try to be understanding and compassionate and give these changes a try.  I believe this dev team has earned some goodwill, so why not give the changes a chance?

 

I hope all of you are staying safe and you and your families are staying healthy. 

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

Certainly, converters are/were a good idea to help people stay in the running. I don't think it was meant for everyone to run out and convert every defense IO to a LOTG proc and repeat with every other Proc but it's what happened. Procs got less expensive but the other parts got way more expensive and kind of balanced it out. It's an issue that needs to be adressed and an issue that is going to be worse if they keep trying to find ways to zap influence gain, i don't really consider double inf being reduced as them doing that but the amount of people who blindly support everything they do seem to be encouraging it. It's that part i don't like, I don't want to buy a LOTG proc to slot a red fortune every single time and i'm sure people who try out city of heroes would be instantly turned off it made to do so. (The last part is a bit of an exagg but you know what im driving at)

Fair points. We should brainstorm ideas on how to improve and pitch it to the Dev team.

[Super Atom]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

Fair points. We should brainstorm ideas on how to improve and pitch it to the Dev team.

Would make for an interesting topic but would probably derail to more debates about the over use of procs dumbing down the game 😛

[Abraxus]

I have seen the creativity, and ingenuity of this community.  I have no doubts whatsoever, that folks are going to find ways to make those big bucks if that is their desire.  That information will be shared, and it will get around, and soon, everyone interested will be using it, just like they did the previous method.  Which, by the way, didn't even exist before AE came along, which was years into the game.  We all hate it when our "system" of doing things is disrupted, but I consider ANY nerf, change, or tweek to be eminently better than not having the game to play at all.  I've been there, and I didn't care for it at all.

 

Instead, I will endeavor to persevere in the face of adversity. In other words, as I have said, I will play the game.😎 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Abraxus

[DMW45]

Personally, I think it might be best to have something a little more expanded, perhaps have IOs be interchangeable to the others within the set on the market.

[Faultline]

20 minutes ago, DMW45 said:

That's a false choice, they could easily make IOs act like salvage does on the market already, and keep IO prices down, but for some reason they love marketers.

I think there is a misunderstanding on why Salvage, Recipes and Crafted Enhancements are grouped. The reason is to help lower level characters by moving influence from high levels to low. The core concept behind the grouping is that if you obtain a desirable recipe at level 10, it sells for exactly as much as if you'd obtained it at level 50. Level 50 characters at the main influence generators, so unless it is at least possible for low level characters to generate items that high level characters can buy, all the influence will be concentrated at the top.

 

Salvage doesn't have levels; instead, they are grouped in three bands (level 10-25, 26-40, 41-50) and so in order for the same idea to work, we need to convert low level salvage like a Mu Vestment into high level salvage like a Positronic Matrix. The fact that it enables conversion within the same rarity is a side effect, not the main goal. There is no intention to have the market automatically convert items, outside of trying to help low level characters fund themselves through their own drops without needing seed money from a high level character.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Faultline

[Zeraphia]

3 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

We all hate it when our "system" of doing things is disrupted, but I consider ANY nerf, change, or tweek to be eminently better than not having the game to play at all.  I've been there, and I didn't care for it at all.

Again, with the "well, there could be nothing at all, be glad for what you do have." This is a forum, this is a recent change, let people have their discussions about it and don't tell them to essentially "shut up and be grateful" for what they do have. You disagree with others, which is totally understandable, but it is unreasonable to tell others to just "sit there and be happy" with changes they don't agree with when they have a platform to discuss their discontent with it. I'm not quoting you, I'm giving emphasis toward the phrases, however, this is essentially how these types of things come across online. I too am grateful that the game exists to play it in the state that it is, however, that doesn't mean that we should worship every single decision the current devs make, nor do I believe that they want us to, they want us to give our opinions on issues we do not agree with or like.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Zeraphia said:

Again, with the "well, there could be nothing at all, be glad for what you do have." This is a forum, this is a recent change, let people have their discussions about it and don't tell them to essentially "shut up and be grateful" for what they do have. You disagree with others, which is totally understandable, but it is unreasonable to tell others to just "sit there and be happy" with changes they don't agree with when they have a platform to discuss their discontent with it. I'm not quoting you, I'm giving emphasis toward the phrases, however, this is essentially how these types of things come across online. I too am grateful that the game exists to play it in the state that it is, however, that doesn't mean that we should worship every single decision the current devs make, nor do I believe that they want us to, they want us to give our opinions on issues we do not agree with or like.

That is not at all what he said.

[Errants]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

No i believe you switch, my point wasn't so much price but more that forcing everyone to buy procs and convert them to the other parts of the set seemed like a bigger issue than the procs being expensive.

It's not a forced issue at the moment, and I think this is where the disconnect is.

 

The game drops according to the GAME's RNG table. However, the rate of drop of recipes is not the same with the rate of use of the recipes. People want LotG: +7.5% because they are useful in many ways - 1 slot onder for 1/10th of Hasten's buff, buffs Defense in the power (if you use it for more than a mule), and has solid set bonuses (+Regen, +HP [which synergize together, along with defense keeping you from being hit], +Acc, +Res S/L, +Res T/P). Many take Defense powers as mules (Hover, Combat Jumping, Stealth Pool, etc) solely to drop in an LotG: +Recharge, because it is that useful, and they want 5 of them. The other enhancements in the set are useful, but less so... Most defense powers are toggles, so the Def, Def/End, and the Def/End/Rech are useful - buffing the primary aspect, and then helping out on costs elsewhere. The Def/Rech and End/Rech are less desirable, as they either have a mostly wasted component (Recharge), or don't enhance the primary aspect of the power (Defense).

 

Typically, on my defense slotting, I'll +Rech, Def, Def/End into any defense toggle - gives me nearly ED-capped Defense enhancement, +7.5% Recharge, +10% Regen, +1.13% HP. Damn good deal for 3 slots. The Def/End/Rech, Def/Rech, and End/Rech are useless to me, in this scenario, because I don't need/want the higher bonuses or that level of enhancement (toggles don't have high recharge). So, if I had a theoretical farm where I earned 1 LotG/day, I'd only get a useful enhancement 50% of the time.

 

Converters fix that. Especially with the merit costs for them and for recipes. Given value of a converter is ~100k, and I get 3 for 1 merit. 3 is conveniently the number I need to reroll a crafted IO within it's set. So, now, for 1 merit, I have the chance to convert those 3 useless IO's (Def/End/Rech, Def/Rech, End/Rech) into something useful for my build. This raises the value (slightly) of the undesired IO's (since they're now conversion fodder, instead of being useless), and lowers the value of the desired IO's (since there's now more of them!). End result - I get my build quicker, as I get the pieces I need. And, I don't hurt anyone in the process, because the trash enhancements get converted into something useful.

 

Now, extend this out from just in-set conversions to set-type or rarity conversions. Now, I can take my Serendipity Defense IO, and use converters to gamble on changing it into a Gift of the Ancients, Red Fortune, or Luck of the Gambler... Or, I can convert my random uncommon recipe into a rare, giving it more value either for slotting or selling on the market.

 

Converters help to mitigate RNG, and normalize value, since there's a greater supply of desired items, and a lowered supply of undesired items.

 

LotG last 5 snapshot as of right now 03/31: 2222 EDT

+Recharge ~8,000,000 324S 2345B

Defense ~5-7,000,000 678S 763B

Def/End ~6-7,000,000 79S 743B

D/E/R ~7,000,000 208S 420B

Def/Rech ~5-6,000.000 257S 370B

End/Rech ~5-7,000,000 73S 304B

 

So, that's 1-3,000,000 difference in the cost of a +Recharge versus anything else in the set. Additionally, there's anywhere from 300-600% larger demand (2345 bids) for the global... yet a price increase of 25-70%. This is because of converters. It is still more valuable... but the price isn't even HIGHER because someone can buy one of the other ones, convert it, and hopefully get what they need. 3 converters/roll (@~100k/converter) with 1 in 5 odds of getting the one you want (it always converts to something different) - that's 300k per roll. Or, even at 7 million for the fodder, you've got 3 chances to get your desired enhancement before you've lost money. If you pick one up for 5 million? 10 rolls.

 

Converters LOWER scarcity, and LOWER prices overall. They contribute to market stability, not volatility.

[SwitchFade]

16 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Actually, no. I didn't. 

 

What I SAID was that marketeering was, along with farming, something that drove the perception of "I must do [X] to make progress in this game instead of just playing regular content!" that Jimmy and the others seem to want to curb. 

 

They target farming as one thing that causes the 'haves and have-nots' issue. I was just pointing out that marketeering ALSO plays a role.

 

That's all.

No "OMGMarketeers are EBIL"... 

No "You're wrecking things by marketeering"...

None of that.

 

Just a reminder that farming isn't the only thing minting top hats and monocles, and that if they want to curb the impression that regular play isn't enough, they'll probably have to look at that source of wealth-accumulation, too. 

Actually, yes you did.

 

I counted 4 posts at least where you called marketeering an issue/problem/gorilla/McDuck/needs addressing.

 

And I said that's not how economics works.

 

Marketeering doesn't cause higher prices in an economy where all goods are normal goods and all goods are substitutable. All goods are the same. LoTG is 8 mill? Buy a sniper recipe, craft, convert and make your own LoTG for 2 mill.

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

That is not at all what he said.

 

3 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Again, with the "well, there could be nothing at all, be glad for what you do have." This is a forum, this is a recent change, let people have their discussions about it and don't tell them to essentially "shut up and be grateful" for what they do have. You disagree with others, which is totally understandable, but it is unreasonable to tell others to just "sit there and be happy" with changes they don't agree with when they have a platform to discuss their discontent with it. I'm not quoting you, I'm giving emphasis toward the phrases, however, this is essentially how these types of things come across online. I too am grateful that the game exists to play it in the state that it is, however, that doesn't mean that we should worship every single decision the current devs make, nor do I believe that they want us to, they want us to give our opinions on issues we do not agree with or like.

I didn't say it was, I said that's how those types of statements are often interpreted. 

[Grouchybeast]

6 minutes ago, Faultline said:

I think there is a misunderstanding on why Salvage, Recipes and Crafted Enhancements are grouped. The reason is to help lower level characters by moving influence from high levels to low. The core concept behind the grouping is that if you obtain a desirable recipe at level 10, it sells for exactly as much as if you'd obtained it at level 50. Level 50 characters at the main influence generators, so unless it is at least possible for low level characters to generate items that high level characters can buy, all the influence will be concentrated at the top.

 

And this works brilliantly.  On live the majority of set recipes that dropped at low level were vendor trash.  On HC the majority of set recipes that drop at low level will turn a profit if crafted.  It took me a little while to get used to the change when I started playing, but once I understood it, the simplicity and cleverness of the idea behind it impressed me a lot.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

If it's a matter of there being a wealth gap, why not create incentives for high net worth individuals to engage in more charity and in-game financial community support?  Why not boost the Inf gain across all levels prior to 50?

Because the idea is to reduce the amount of Inf entering the system to keep inflation in check.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

Actually, yes you did.

 

I counted 4 posts at least where you called marketeering an issue/problem/gorilla/McDuck/needs addressing.

 

And I said that's not how economics works.

 

Marketeering doesn't cause higher prices in an economy where all goods are normal goods and all goods are substitutable. All goods are the same. LoTG is 8 mill? Buy a sniper recipe, craft, convert and make your own LoTG for 2 mill.

 

Believe that if you like, but no... that really wasn't the point. 

 

Anyway, since it's unlikely this conversation will turn into anything more productive than your continuing to harp on a point I never argued, I'm not going to reply again. Carry on and enjoy yourself.