Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[Myrmidon]

13 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Not sure you could tank the untyped, non-positional eRage coming at you.

 

Unless, ForumRegen?

ForumWillpower, Switch. Regen is for Sentinels and newbs.😉

 

 

I once spent three days grading PvPer insults in the Champion forums, which seemed to piss them off to no end. I am not at all concerned with what passes for eRage here.🤣

 

[Myrmidon]

7 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

 

I'd have to argue that I'm sure that there are plenty of players out their exemplaring down without even giving a thought to the rewards, other than helping out fellow players. If my memory servers me  correctly, players even used to do it when they got ZERO rewards when exemp'ing down.

 

 

This.
 

My entire Supergroup are those players and any reward is just a side-effect of that. 

[kiramon]

9 hours ago, Lines said:

Then don't farm?

That’s just dumb solutioning. 
 

 I urge you to consider looking into your problem solving abilities more tactically. 

[Lines]

Just now, kiramon said:

That’s just dumb solutioning. 
 

 I urge you to consider looking into your problem solving abilities more tactically. 

I actually found the comment baffling. If someone doesn't find doing something fun, then don't do the thing.

 

Does that not seem obvious?

[Parabola]

4 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

actually it doesnt. When i am at work making money, chevys dont show up in my garage, and I dont hope for a lambo to drop. There is no omnipotent being that can change what everyone makes with a simple database change. And no one does the work of 8 men, at a run, and gets 8 salaries. While 2 of his neighbors kids stand at the door and earn a college degree.

All of these points are talking about how employment differs in game from the real world, not the fundamentals of the economy. My comment was obviously somewhat reductive to keep it pithy but the basic premise holds; the in game economy functions in much the same way as a real one. In particular the factors that govern inflation which is what this change is all about.

 

In game we are not salaried workers, we are all effectively self employed small companies. We spend time and effort to produce goods (recipes etc), that we can sell. We do also accrue inf, but this isn't being paid to us by another entity within the economy, it is appearing out of thin air. The real world equivalent is literally printing money and this creates an inflationary pressure on the market.

 

Taking the wide view, the price of any in game good is set by the ratio of the availability of that good, the desirability of it and how much inf is swilling around in the game economy. Supply and demand, just like real life. If the supply drops, the price rises. If the demand increases, the price rises. And if the amount of inf in the system increases people will be prepared to pay more to compete for the same goods and prices again rise.

 

The thing that really matters in terms of limiting inflation in the game is the ratio of the quantity of goods being added to the market vs the amount of inf being created. Anything that allows a greater amount of inf to be created per good added is bad for inflation. This change is designed to limit that and that is why it has been applied everywhere and not just in AE.

 

I think one of the unhelpful misunderstandings is that people may think of in game farming as a particularly noble act. The word has connotations of creation, effort and dirt under the fingernails. But everyone playing any content in the game is nobly creating goods just the same as a farmer, the only difference being that a farmer does it faster. However everyone playing the game is also nefariously printing inf, watering down the currency, and again farmers are doing that faster too. With the exemped xp->inf and patrol xp they were printing much, much faster.

 

I understand that people who farm a lot for the direct inf creation and who treat drops as a by product are upset by this change. I sympathise but feel this was a necessary change for the good of the whole playerbase.

[Peerless Girl]

7 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I would love to see them look at Katie Hannon TF. The live devs way over nerfed it and now it hardly gets done.

 

I would not be opposed to that. I agree it doesn't get run enough (and parts of it are a pain when it is). Have to be careful though, because it was also speed ran quite a bit back on live, so there's a balance.

 

7 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Part of it is that many of them built a character to work at level 50. exemp down too far and the character isnt near as effective.

 

Yup. That's why I either built to account for that, or on characters where it had a worse effect on my "bottom line" ran a separate build for exemplaring. 

[Uruare]

Well, this is a boring and peculiar change.  

 

I generally enjoy active farming, and that won't be changing, but knowing that the GM's are delighted to have me waste 2x the amount of time doing it in order to fund my character building projects kinda makes me want to not do it.   Or anything, really.   It'll make me, as an avid farmer, take twice as long to farm for inf to fund my builds.  

 

It looks like a solution in search of a problem.    It feels like one of those pointless changes made by someone that basically hates inf farming as a playstyle and slapped a thin excuse about exploits onto it to make it sound authoritative and legitimate.  

 

Doesn't mean a thing if that wasn't the goal or the intention.     You peculiar sods might've thought you were aiming at something else entirely, but you've pretty well killed at least my own interest in farming up inf to fund new builds, which means I won't bother coming up with new builds or even playing as much.

 

Most of my fun was in coming up with builds, then farming up the inf to put them together and burn testing them.   It's a lot more fun to actually put a thing together and feel how it plays than to build it in mids and guess.    Won't be doing that anymore.   Funding new builds just became a monumentally increased time investment.

 

I was happy to spend the time on it that I was spending.   I don't think I'll spend any time on it now though.    This change offers me nothing, but promises to make me take twice as long to fund my adventures.

 

You've put the time cost out of the budget I was willing to allocate on it.

 

And now you get nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peerless Girl]

8 minutes ago, Uruare said:

And now you get nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not as if they were "getting" anything from you in the first place so...(assuming you weren't donating of course, if so then to each their own, others will replace you).

[BigGotter]

A good farmer knows, When the food runs out, They will either have to grow their own or pay the higher price at the store.

[Peerless Girl]

16 minutes ago, BigGotter said:

A good farmer knows, When the food runs out, They will either have to grow their own or pay the higher price at the store.

 

Prices will not go up in the long term from this, Jimmy addressed it. if they DO they'll handle it, I have faith. In the SHORT term they will for similar reasons to real life right now: panic (that and more people playing, which always raises prices). 

[MunkiLord]

12 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

actually it doesnt. When i am at work making money, chevys dont show up in my garage, and I dont hope for a lambo to drop. There is no omnipotent being that can change what everyone makes with a simple database change. And no one does the work of 8 men, at a run, and gets 8 salaries. While 2 of his neighbors kids stand at the door and earn a college degree.

Can confirm, I tried the sitting at my door thing to earn my degree and it didn’t work. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

16 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I should probably mention that these factors of economics, supply chain dynamics and financial metrics are what I hold a degree in and my vocation...

Great.  I just made The Dismal Scientist, a Thugs/Poison redside mastermind in your honor.

[Parabola]

54 minutes ago, Uruare said:

It looks like a solution in search of a problem.    It feels like one of those pointless changes made by someone that basically hates inf farming as a playstyle and slapped a thin excuse about exploits onto it to make it sound authoritative and legitimate. 

Have you actually read any of the explanations given by the devs or by many of us in this thread as to why this change was made? I get that people don't like having the thing they do changed but the change really was necessary.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Uruare said:

Most of my fun was in coming up with builds, then farming up the inf to put them together and burn testing them.   It's a lot more fun to actually put a thing together and feel how it plays than to build it in mids and guess. 

But why would you waste time doing that by farming in the first place, now, when you can do it easier and much quicker on the beta server?

[MunkiLord]

24 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

But why would you waste time doing that by farming in the first place, now, when you can do it easier and much quicker on the beta server?

Can't speak for that person, but unless I am literally just testing out a specific power or two, I'm not a fan of using the beta server. I'd rather create the character and let it sit unused if I decide I don't like it. I realize that's not the most efficient use of my time, but that's not a high priority for me.

[Uruare]

24 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

But why would you waste time doing that by farming in the first place, now, when you can do it easier and much quicker on the beta server?

Because I don't make a thing unless I actually want to play a thing, and I generally enjoy active farming.

I could do that.  I have done that with things I was very sketchy on.   I can still do that, and take 2x as long to actually build it on live servers now if I want more than a demo.

Feels like nonsense to me.    It adds nothing to my enjoyment and actively detracts from it.   I'm not one of the developers, so I neither know or care about birds-eye view metrics.    

What I know is how this affects me, and I don't like it.

 

Why should I be happy about it?  What am I supposed to like about it?    

 

I'm not condemning them.   I'm sure they know what they're doing.  It's probably the most amazeballs of changes; purity incarnate, a renaissance of elegance.

 

Tastes like ice cream, now with 50% less flavor to me.     

You don't have to agree.  
 

[Saikochoro]

17 hours ago, Digirium said:

Seems to me taking away influence from exemplar or switching off experience to gain influence merely switches players from one exploit (infinity patrol experience) to other exploits (low bidding, huge mark up  on IOs after converting). The world praises and looks up to capitalists so may be explains why nobody can see the problem?

 

 

Playing the market is not an exploit. Buying low and selling high is a function of the market. If people are willing to fill the low bids and willing to pay the selling price it is working as intended. 

[Uruare]

56 minutes ago, parabola said:

Have you actually read any of the explanations given by the devs or by many of us in this thread as to why this change was made? I get that people don't like having the thing they do changed but the change really was necessary.

Of course I've read them.   I don't agree.

Not a dev.   I'm not here to pretend I'm a dev.   I'm not here to put a fake dev hat on and go "Well, I personally don't like this thing that puts a big dent in my fun, but I'm just going to say nothing because these people say it was super necessary"

 

I don't actually believe that.  I do not agree, and I don't like this change because all I get out of it is the promise of having to take twice as long to build characters in my favorite way to build characters.

It's my opinion and how I feel.   

[Uruare]

1 hour ago, Peerless Girl said:

 

It's not as if they were "getting" anything from you in the first place so...(assuming you weren't donating of course, if so then to each their own, others will replace you).

Ok.   I'm glad you were here to let me know.   Not sure what I'd have done otherwise.

[SlimPickens]

6 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

Playing the market is not an exploit. Buying low and selling high is a function of the market. If people are willing to fill the low bids and willing to pay the selling price it is working as intended. 

No but its pretty lame compared to farmers who actually produce recipes and influence to spend on the market, flippers only make a resource thats already there more expensive for everyone.

 

I have no respect for people who play the market via flipping and price gouging vs farming and putting things on the market in the first place, so I am resolutely against this change or any change that over values a hoarder of imaginary money over a producer of imaginary money.

 

If sitting around and not pushing buttons and using powers and defeating mobs is "gameplay" which is now clearly more incentivized than actually playing the game and pushing buttons and defeating mobs and generating the fuel that makes the market go in the first place, that does not bode well for long term health of the game.

 

This server is about alts. You get 1000 slots. Anything that makes it more time consuming and more tedious and expensive to create, outfit, and play those alts is something I cannot stand behind as a state of the game concept.

[Peerless Girl]

6 minutes ago, SlimPickens said:

No but its pretty lame compared to farmers who actually produce recipes and influence to spend on the market, flippers only make a resource thats already there more expensive for everyone.

 

I have no respect for people who play the market via flipping and price gouging vs farming and putting things on the market in the first place, so I am resolutely against this change or any change that over values a hoarder of imaginary money over a producer of imaginary money.

 

If sitting around and not pushing buttons and using powers and defeating mobs is "gameplay" which is now clearly more incentivized than actually playing the game and pushing buttons and defeating mobs and generating the fuel that makes the market go in the first place, that does not bode well for long term health of the game.

 

This server is about alts. You get 1000 slots. Anything that makes it more time consuming and more tedious and expensive to create, outfit, and play those alts is something I cannot stand behind as a state of the game concept.

Not everything you do on the market has to be "price gouging" if those prices are really out of the norm and too high, no one will buy them except those with more money than time and/or sense. Flipping things is a time-honored practice, as the property brothers would tell you. I actually liked doing market stuff as part of my RP back on Virtue in live, I did also go run missions, and play with my friends. Farming is not the only way, and with enough work, it won't necessarily be the "best" way anymore. That's my hope, anyway. 

[Saikochoro]

4 minutes ago, SlimPickens said:

No but its pretty lame compared to farmers who actually produce recipes and influence to spend on the market, flippers only make a resource thats already there more expensive for everyone.

 

I have no respect for people who play the market via flipping and price gouging vs farming and putting things on the market in the first place, so I am resolutely against this change or any change that over values a hoarder of imaginary money over a producer of imaginary money.

 

If sitting around and not pushing buttons and using powers and defeating mobs is "gameplay" which is now clearly more incentivized than actually playing the game and pushing buttons and defeating mobs and generating the fuel that makes the market go in the first place, that does not bode well for long term health of the game.

 

This server is about alts. You get 1000 slots. Anything that makes it more time consuming and more tedious and expensive to create, outfit, and play those alts is something I cannot stand behind as a state of the game concept.

The way the market works price gouging really isnt a thing.  Due to converters, recipe fungibility, and price caps flippers really can’t gouge prices without the risk of getting undercut and losing the fee and having to relist at a lower price.  If people try to super low ball prices by putting ina ridiculously low sell price, then they might actually sell it at a super low price. If people put in reasonable sell prices that also reduces chances for flipping.  
 

I would bet that a huge portion of “playing the market” is buying level 31-41 cheap recipes, crafting them, and then converting to a popular IO. This is not gouging but rather taking a crap item and turning it into something valuable. This is very good for the in game economy and prevents price gouging. 
 

Unlike farming, IO conversion doesn’t generate influence, but rather transfers it. Has basically no entry barrier, is easy, and is good for the in game economy.

 

Farming is still a good thing especially for increasing goods, but it also generates tons of new influence. The new influence is what the devs are trying to curtail.  Now that I have a geared farmer, I can still easily earn 100m a day with casual farming while power leveling alts. 
 

I farm and use the market. I farm to power level my alts. Any influence/drops I get is incidental. I use the market to fund the alts. I don’t flip at all. I do IO conversion. It is faster, easier, more accessible, and better for the in game economy than farming.

[Gremlin]

6 minutes ago, SlimPickens said:

No but its pretty lame compared to farmers who actually produce recipes and influence to spend on the market, flippers only make a resource thats already there more expensive for everyone.

How?

 

All flipping does is to smooth out the price peaks and troughs a little. Everyone can see what the flipper is paying because the same number keeps appearing in the last 5. Anyone who doesn't want to buy from the evil flipper can just bid one more inf and take the next sale the flipper would have got. If you're in hurry then the flipper will sell you an item now. Odds are it'll be cheaper than the other offers 'cos the flipper is trying to undercut them.

 

Crafters are even less evil. They turn things that people don't want into things that people do want. Most people can't be bothered to buy vendor trash yellows and convert them into LofG procs but fortunately they don't have to. The marketeers are doing it for them.

 

You never need to give money to a marketeer. You can always pay what they pay and do what they do. This requires a bit of time and effort, of course and that's how marketeers make money. People pay more for stuff they can have now for zero effort.

 

The practical upshot of all this is that trading drives up the price of things that people sell and drives down the price of things people buy to use. That seems like a good thing to me.

[Uruare]

Oh boy are some people going to learn some hard lessons about where inf comes from.

 

This is going to be hilarious.

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Uruare said:

Oh boy are some people going to learn some hard lessons about where inf comes from.

 

This is going to be hilarious.

Where does Inf come from, daddy?