SANCTUARY server (not Homecoming) Energy Blast ... no more Knockback...

[Freaksh0w]

8 minutes ago, Freaksh0w said:

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Freaksh0w

[Nemu]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

I'm aware of AoE effects and knocking every or nearly all foes out of a designated choke point can be disheartening, but most KB won't do that.  With the exception of powers like Nova, you might knock a handful out of a specific point and regardless of the purpose of the AoE effects, those knocked back ARE controlled so that mostly leaves what actually is the most concern is.  It's DPS.

 

If you just so happened to drop down an AoE sleep patch and some someone knocks some of the foes out of it, does it matter that they are no longer asleep because of that? No it doesn't.

 

Does it matter that they aren't getting some of their endurance drained?  No, it doesn't.

 

Does it matter that now the tank is missing 3-4% defense because those foes aren't in their aura?  You can calculate the survival drop on paper but at the same time, those foes aren't doing anything for the time and if their survival was broken by that bit of defense then maybe that team needs MORE KB.

 

So what else do you have?  I'm willing to put my whole argument into the premise that, yes, this is all about DPS.

It's not all about DPS.  Killing stuff is not an issue, mobs die eventually and the time spent chasing and killing something that was KBed is negligible. Is it annoying? sure but I'm not going to cry about my xp/hour either just because of KB and most people are pretty good with the "I knock it back I kill it" philosophy. Creating situations that generate additional aggro that threaten team wipes, on the other hand, is a more real concern.

 

I'm sure you can imagine scenarios where pets chase KBed mobs or anchors gets knocked into another mob that results in adds. And there are teams out there that comprise of non-IOed, non-incarnate team members that may struggle with those adds. Certainly you can tell those players to l2p but I imagine they'd have the same reaction as if I told anyone on the forums to L2P.

 

I really can't think of many other player generated artifact that ratchet up the skill level demanded of teammates and most of those impact positioning (poor use of hurricane and other repel effects, maybe electrical affinity with the chaining mechanic, you always get the ranged folks that break the chain haha).

 

[Galaxy Brain]

58 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I'm aware of AoE effects and knocking every or nearly all foes out of a designated choke point can be disheartening, but most KB won't do that.  With the exception of powers like Nova, you might knock a handful out of a specific point and regardless of the purpose of the AoE effects, those knocked back ARE controlled so that mostly leaves what actually is the most concern is.  It's DPS.

 

If you just so happened to drop down an AoE sleep patch and some someone knocks some of the foes out of it, does it matter that they are no longer asleep because of that? No it doesn't.

 

Does it matter that they aren't getting some of their endurance drained?  No, it doesn't.

 

Does it matter that now the tank is missing 3-4% defense because those foes aren't in their aura?  You can calculate the survival drop on paper but at the same time, those foes aren't doing anything for the time and if their survival was broken by that bit of defense then maybe that team needs MORE KB.

 

So what else do you have?  I'm willing to put my whole argument into the premise that, yes, this is all about DPS.

This gets into specifics, but it all has to do with what comes after the scatter and the content, as well as the KB powers in question. In general, powers that deal KB *RELIABLY* are less of an issue as the person using it can plan for it, and use it to their and the team's advantage and the team in turn can react to it. A Storm user Gusting everyone against a wall is a non issue and is indeed a helpful form of control. A Storm user spamming gust in different directions on purpose is being a troll. Alternatively, if another character is using some sort of patch to control the situation or the like, knocking them out of it is just bad play if you can control it. Like, why use (Mass KB power) when everyone is already bouncing on an Ice Slick?

 

A player using ST knockback on an enemy in general has dibs on that guy. They are controlling that 1 opponent and if that bothers you, you can try and compete with them for the kill if you wish however that means. A player using ST knockbacks on random enemies just to scatter them about is being obtuse and just causing aggro to themselves and making other players have to pick up their slack in either aggro management or chasing down enemies to defeat them.

 

But then there are two types of AoE KBs that are unreliable and emulate the scatter that "trollish" play can: PBAoE Knockback, and AoEs that have a % Chance to knockback. The former can be controlled by using the power outside of a mob and using it more like a Cone attack, but the nature of them want players to use it while surrounded by enemies, which scatters them to the 4 winds. This is unfortunate as often these are in Melee Sets which then are essentially punished for using a power correctly. The latter by nature is then uncontrolled KB since there is only a chance of it occurring. Not only is this unreliable as a control for the player using it, but in a team setting even if used correctly odds are you are separating a group rather than moving the group. 

 

There are examples of KB used very well. There are examples of KB being used incorrectly, and there are examples where the KB powers are seemingly designed to be inconsistent and hard to react to.

 

Yes, when it is inconsistent or used incorrectly it is a "hit to your (team's) DPS", but since it is a player action to cause the KB and outside of your control, or vice versa you're the player with KB powers who cannot control how or when they happen due to RNG, that causes frustration. Sure, other powers may have similar chance of Mez effects but when they go off they don't ask you or others to change your play style in order to re-position or re-target. 

 

On the thematic side though, subjectively when I have seen KB in other media it is usually a very significant event. A guy is thrown through an object, or into a wall, or across the room, and they do not get back up for a good amount of time unlike the 2 seconds in CoH. It is usually a finishing maneuver when the hero sweeps through and knocks all the baddies back on their butt, they don't usually get back up! In CoH, many KB powers simply re-position the enemy and are more an inconvenience to them than something debilitating. Which is why I am in favor of attaching more effects to KB to emulate how it is usually portrayed in media.

 

 

 

[Frostweaver]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Oh ... the ALL OR NOTHING plan.

 

Still amazed that it seems to be hard to comprehend that what is desired is Knockback ON DEMAND so that the Player can exercise a measure of control over their Knockback DEPENDING ON THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME ... because circumstances change from moment to moment ALL THE TIME.

 

The One Size Fits All Solution™ only satisfies the lazy who don't want to have to deal with it, not the actively engaged who want to be clever/intelligent with their use of the tool.

 

 

 

Come on, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

Yes, one size fits all. You get a big bonus, you take a big hit too. What you refer to as 'all or nothing' is also known as 'balance', and apparently it is fairly important to a lot of games... big reams of changes have been made and suggested in achieving this particular goal.

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Frostweaver said:

Yes, one size fits all. You get a big bonus, you take a big hit too. What you refer to as 'all or nothing' is also known as 'balance', and apparently it is fairly important to a lot of games... big reams of changes have been made and suggested in achieving this particular goal.

A closed mind is a terrible thing to celebrate ...

[Frostweaver]

I'd rather not have a mind so open that common sense and logic slide out. KB/KD are a HUGE survival bonus to a blaster especially... and energy blasters, while not quite in the dps ballpark of fire, have MUCH higher survivability without the 'pain' of most other high-survival sets. I have played many energy blasters, and know exactly how much, since issue 1, KB improves survivability, placement, and grouping. And energy blast has every bit of the same damage as any other high-damage set.... with a less-resisted damage type, to boot.

EB is not electric. KD is BETTER than KB in a team environment. Right now they have to pay a price for that. Any change should also have a price attached. And I would appreciate you NOT insulting me by claiming I have a closed mind simply because I do not agree with you on the neccessity of giving EB and storm a monstrous boost without some kind of limiting factor attached.

[Frostweaver]

22 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

A closed mind is a terrible thing to celebrate ...

 

Look, for an example, at Dual pistols. It has, by default, lots of KD... the price it pays is both a commonly-resisted damage type and lower damage than EB. You can choose a different type of ammunition, but by doing so you lose the KB. All-or-nothing.

So, what price do you expect to pay for EB suddenly gaining a huge comparative power boost at-will? removing an attack power from the set like DP does? changing some of the powers to no KB/KD at all, like AR? a weaksauce tier9 like water? making it so that all of it's attacks are changed to the most commonly-resisted type in the game? Or do you simply not care about making all the other blaster sets considerably weaker in comparison?

Edited April 10, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Redlynne]

18 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

You can choose a different type of ammunition, but by doing so you lose the KB. All-or-nothing.

 

You can turn that on and off by toggling to different ammo types as the situation demands, during a mission.

That's VERY different from going to Null the Gull and turning it on or off until you visit Null the Gull again.

 

I shouldn't have to point this out to you.  It's literally that simple.  You even cited it to me.

It CAN be done.  The only thing standing in the way is ... people like you ...

[Frostweaver]

Just now, Redlynne said:

 

You can turn that on and off by toggling to different ammo types as the situation demands, during a mission.

That's VERY different from going to Null the Gull and turning it on or off until you visit Null the Gull again.

 

I shouldn't have to point this out to you.  It's literally that simple.  You even cited it to me.

It CAN be done.  The only thing standing in the way is ... people like you ...

YOU LOSE A PRIMARY SET POWER CHOICE. You don't consider this a tradeoff?

Why do I have to tell YOU this?

[Redlynne]

Okay, you're not arguing in good faith.  You're just arguing to argue.

Welcome to ignore.

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, Nemu said:

I'm sure you can imagine scenarios where pets chase KBed mobs or anchors gets knocked into another mob that results in adds. And there are teams out there that comprise of non-IOed, non-incarnate team members that may struggle with those adds. Certainly you can tell those players to l2p but I imagine they'd have the same reaction as if I told anyone on the forums to L2P.

Nice try.

 

If you are so close to a spawn that knocking a foe back into them aggros them, that 2nd spawn would have aggroed anyway.  If you're knocking anchors into other spawns, that must mean you don't have immobilize.  Anchors (and all mobs, frankly) can run into other spawns anyway.

 

Also, have you ever heard of the slang "add" or "ambush"?  If you don't have a set of actions for when a 2nd spawn is suddenly aggroed, I feel sorry for you.  I can tell you what I do on every character in the situation where another spawn (or sets of spawns) gets aggroed on the team be that because someone Leroy Jenkins'ed, knocked an anchor into another spawn, an ambush, the mobs themselves run and get aggro, etc.  If you can't handle that, I don't know what to tell you but I do know that I can tell you that KB isn't somehow put in the hotseat for all adds in the game and attributing your inability to coordinate a compromised team situation isn't even the end of the world so what else do you got?

 

Also, I don't have full IO'ed out characters either.  Getting adds on a team is what shakes things up.  Trying to make up a narrative of teams struggling and wiping because KB is out of control is amusing.

 

3 hours ago, Nemu said:

I really can't think of many other player generated artifact that ratchet up the skill level demanded of teammates and most of those impact positioning (poor use of hurricane and other repel effects, maybe electrical affinity with the chaining mechanic, you always get the ranged folks that break the chain haha).

 

FYI, Shock Therapy doesn't have any foe chains, only ally chains.  There is Amp Up but that is centered on teammate's attacks.

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This gets into specifics, but it all has to do with what comes after the scatter and the content, as well as the KB powers in question. In general, powers that deal KB *RELIABLY* are less of an issue as the person using it can plan for it, and use it to their and the team's advantage and the team in turn can react to it. A Storm user Gusting everyone against a wall is a non issue and is indeed a helpful form of control. A Storm user spamming gust in different directions on purpose is being a troll. Alternatively, if another character is using some sort of patch to control the situation or the like, knocking them out of it is just bad play if you can control it. Like, why use (Mass KB power) when everyone is already bouncing on an Ice Slick?

 

That is more a subject of player mentality gravitating to a philosophy of "spam".  If you can't spam it or mule it, it's useless to most meta-builds.  But in general, a lot of powers in the game are meant to be used as tools and you don't wipe out all your tools every time regardless of situation.  But this isn't just isolated to KB.  A lot of tools have gone by the wayside because people just don't want to sit on their hands with regards to using powers.  If it ain't perma, it ain't useful.

 

How many times have people dissed intangible powers?  You don't have to spam them but they have their uses.  If you want to use other tools to get similar results, that's on you.

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yes, when it is inconsistent or used incorrectly it is a "hit to your (team's) DPS", but since it is a player action to cause the KB and outside of your control, or vice versa you're the player with KB powers who cannot control how or when they happen due to RNG, that causes frustration. Sure, other powers may have similar chance of Mez effects but when they go off they don't ask you or others to change your play style in order to re-position or re-target. 

 

On the thematic side though, subjectively when I have seen KB in other media it is usually a very significant event. A guy is thrown through an object, or into a wall, or across the room, and they do not get back up for a good amount of time unlike the 2 seconds in CoH. It is usually a finishing maneuver when the hero sweeps through and knocks all the baddies back on their butt, they don't usually get back up! In CoH, many KB powers simply re-position the enemy and are more an inconvenience to them than something debilitating. Which is why I am in favor of attaching more effects to KB to emulate how it is usually portrayed in media.

Well I can think of plenty of media where KB isn't a finishing move.

 

That being said, I still stand by this being an issue brought about by concerns over DPS.  The funny thing is, there's nothing wrong with that.  Being concerned with meta-builds and such is just a different way to play the game and has its own lines to walk and hoops to jump through not to mention it is more truthful than pretending KB is an issue of team survival or QoL that would assist new players or some such.

 

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

You can turn that on and off by toggling to different ammo types as the situation demands, during a mission.

That's VERY different from going to Null the Gull and turning it on or off until you visit Null the Gull again.

 

I shouldn't have to point this out to you.  It's literally that simple.  You even cited it to me.

It CAN be done.  The only thing standing in the way is ... people like you ...

The argument being made is "trade offs".  You seem to believe that the trade off of having controllable KB is...having KD instead.

 

If you need an example of how that is not a trade off, look at Bonfire slotted with KB>KD.  Now that power is broken because it traded nothing for the KD except a slot which, in fact, turned that power from an area denial power to an AoE lockdown patch + damage.

 

The example used with Dual Pistols was made because not only are you sacrificing a +dmg power (Aim) for the ability to toggle your KB but you also don't get the benefit of the other toggles.  Also, it doesn't change the powers from KB to KD it just removes the KB so you get no mitigation from it.  That is the trade off.

 

Being able to control your KB is certainly powerful and useful...but we don't need it.  Many powers were not balanced around just turning your KB into KD with no trade off and the game is certainly not balanced around being able to control those effects on the fly.

 

That all being said, I do wish there were a means of slotting powers to make the KB more reliable.  As @Galaxy Brain explained, it can be a hindrance if you're relying on that KB to keep you on your feet but it only working a % of the time.  That would be the only change I'd agree to with regards to assisting KB.

[Galaxy Brain]

10 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

I do not agree with you on the neccessity of giving EB and storm a monstrous boost without some kind of limiting factor attached.

The limiting factor is Knockback itself.

 

KB requires more skill to use than other control effects due to having to react to the enemy's new position, or predict where they'll go. Knockdown, and even Knockup, do not have to test this skill for players (or in KU's case not as harshly as they often stay relatively put) while still getting the benefit of taking the enemy out of the fight for a brief animation. Knockback can take them out for slightly longer, or much longer if they get stuck on geometry but that is very risky due to both it being random and the chance that they become untouchable. 

 

In general, KD does the same thing KB does without the drawbacks or learning curve. If Energy Blast was suddenly changed to all Knockdown, it would have roughly the exact same mitigation as it does now if you stay at range and keep enemies juggled on their butts. There would be some situations where due to RNG an enemy gets closer and closer than they would have, and times when launching them off geometry could have helped without you needing to give chase, but 93% of the time it would be just as good without the drawback of a learnign curve or the situations where it interacts with other players in a negative manner (whether that be unintentional or not).

 

If there were a way to swap between KB and KD, I would vehemently argue that KB should get something extra to make it a tactical pick over KD since the latter has most of the strength with none of the weaknesses.

[Nemu]

28 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Nice try.

Dude I'm not even trying to argue with you, simply pointing out scenarios where knockback may cause additional adds and be a concern for some teams, not sure why are you taking such an aggressive and dismissive tone.  And you response is basically telling people to L2P and you know how well people are going to receive that.

[Galaxy Brain]

26 minutes ago, Naraka said:

That is more a subject of player mentality gravitating to a philosophy of "spam".  If you can't spam it or mule it, it's useless to most meta-builds.  But in general, a lot of powers in the game are meant to be used as tools and you don't wipe out all your tools every time regardless of situation.  But this isn't just isolated to KB.  A lot of tools have gone by the wayside because people just don't want to sit on their hands with regards to using powers.  If it ain't perma, it ain't useful.

 

How many times have people dissed intangible powers?  You don't have to spam them but they have their uses.  If you want to use other tools to get similar results, that's on you.

People hark on Intangible powers for the same reason they do KB: another player altered how they can fight enemies. Whether it is knocking them out of range (of their Melee powers or their AoE), or locking them out of the area in a similar way due to intangible, somebody else messed with what you were trying to do and that is frustrating.

 

28 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Well I can think of plenty of media where KB isn't a finishing move.

Same here, but in a superhero setting, when Storm uses Gust on a bunch of random thugs that ends the fight. If the hero Crane Kicks a guy off a ledge, that ends the fight. If you super-punch a guy into a wall, they are at least dazed against it for quite some time and is usually a stopping point in the fight. 

 

In general, "Super" knockback where people are launched 10's of feet instantly is not a 2-sec ordeal, if its less than that its essentially what we see with Knockdown where they bounce down then get back up a short ways away.

 

This part is subjective sure, but I think if it were buffed it would be seen as something more exiting and thematic to counter the times when it is intrusive.

 

28 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

That being said, I still stand by this being an issue brought about by concerns over DPS.  The funny thing is, there's nothing wrong with that.  Being concerned with meta-builds and such is just a different way to play the game and has its own lines to walk and hoops to jump through not to mention it is more truthful than pretending KB is an issue of team survival or QoL that would assist new players or some such.

 

I wouldn't even say it is a meta-build concern and more of a "hey, that guy interrupted what I wanted to do" concern which can occur at all levels of play. A group of casual players tackle a mob of enemies, a melee character goes after the boss but then it gets flung down the hall constantly, that could be annoying to them as they have no agency, 

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Oh ... the ALL OR NOTHING plan.

 

Still amazed that it seems to be hard to comprehend that what is desired is Knockback ON DEMAND so that the Player can exercise a measure of control over their Knockback DEPENDING ON THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE TIME ... because circumstances change from moment to moment ALL THE TIME.

 

The One Size Fits All Solution™ only satisfies the lazy who don't want to have to deal with it, not the actively engaged who want to be clever/intelligent with their use of the tool.

 

 

 

Come on, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

No. It should not be a simple task for control freak leaders and/or teammates to demand someone use such a function. It should absolutely be a demand that has a cost. The social implications of demanding someone go to Null and change their entire powerset are much more significant than demanding someone flip a toggle. Many or most people would consider the latter demand will not be such a big deal. But a lot of people will consider the former a big deal. And if someone is going to make such a demand, and we know people will, it should come at a potential cost to the person making the demand. I think potentially looking like a control freak to those around them is a fair cost. Mainly because it would be an accurate perception of that person. So I'm clear on this one, I used the word person very intentionally instead of leader or teammate.

 

Is that a judgmental thing for me to say? Yes, but I have a Scrapper named Judgmental Girl so it's ok.

Edited April 10, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Naraka]

17 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Dude I'm not even trying to argue with you, simply pointing out scenarios where knockback may cause additional adds and be a concern for some teams, not sure why are you taking such an aggressive and dismissive tone.  And you response is basically telling people to L2P and you know how well people are going to receive that.

It's not aggressive, maybe competitive if the competition is defending your stance on the subject.

 

I didn't tell you to learn to play, I argued that the situation you outline is merely a Tuesday in the week of teaming.  A lot of things can concern some teams.  Not having a melee meat shield can be a concern to some teams but you don't blame the squishiness of the non-melee ATs, you just deal with what you got which is the overall mantra of teaming.

 

10 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

People hark on Intangible powers for the same reason they do KB: another player altered how they can fight enemies. Whether it is knocking them out of range (of their Melee powers or their AoE), or locking them out of the area in a similar way due to intangible, somebody else messed with what you were trying to do and that is frustrating.

So is taking your kills or taking your alphas (Brute gripes).  Frustration is a natural response but if you are on a team, at the end of the day it's just another tax you pay for more mayhem.  You can get frustrated because things didn't go your way or you can take into account that other players are also doing their thing.  I wouldn't advocate for spamming intangible but if I were on a team that had a FF or Sonic Resonance user that put the Tsoo Sorcerer in an intangible state or whatever other similar circumstance, that's just that player doing their thing and telling them to stop can cause the same type of frustration you feel when you can't do what you want.

 

I'm not saying bend the knee or majority vs minority but rather trying to demonstrate that those feelings are a 2-way street.

 

17 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Same here, but in a superhero setting, when Storm uses Gust on a bunch of random thugs that ends the fight. If the hero Crane Kicks a guy off a ledge, that ends the fight. If you super-punch a guy into a wall, they are at least dazed against it for quite some time and is usually a stopping point in the fight. 

 

In general, "Super" knockback where people are launched 10's of feet instantly is not a 2-sec ordeal, if its less than that its essentially what we see with Knockdown where they bounce down then get back up a short ways away.

 

This part is subjective sure, but I think if it were buffed it would be seen as something more exiting and thematic to counter the times when it is intrusive.

But comic book action is mobile.  It's rare to keep a confrontation isolated to 12x12 tiles in a room.  When Toad lashes Storm with his tongue and flings her away from her allies, that doesn't end the fight...but then most characters aim to have "knockback protection" so they can't be moved.  The Hulk doesn't stand his ground while throwing punches, he grabs and drags and throws and jumps and stomps.  Fights can span entire neighborhoods or cities.

 

You have to take into consideration the medium the game is in.  Would be fun if KB could literally fling you from north to south Steel Canyon and through buildings if they get in the way but at the end of the day, players don't want that.  They want their AoEs saturated and the mob spawns to be neat and uniform.

24 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I wouldn't even say it is a meta-build concern and more of a "hey, that guy interrupted what I wanted to do" concern which can occur at all levels of play. A group of casual players tackle a mob of enemies, a melee character goes after the boss but then it gets flung down the hall constantly, that could be annoying to them as they have no agency, 

And what do most people want to do?  DPS.

[Redlynne]

27 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

It should not be a simple task for control freak leaders and/or teammates to demand someone use such a function.

People like that are going to demand it anyway, whether or not you can deliver on their demands.  People are funny that way.  Welcome to the internet age.

[SlimPickens]

Having to pay the slot cost tax to use KB-KD procs in all the AoEs for energy blast is very unfortunate, so I sure see the value in being able to toggle it off if desired. It makes energy blast a very poor set when you have to use a slot to stop an annoying secondary effect rather than producing more damage with a real proc. The min/max in me dies a little death picking a set I know is mediocre at best because it requires babysitting.

[Galaxy Brain]

59 minutes ago, Naraka said:

So is taking your kills or taking your alphas (Brute gripes).  Frustration is a natural response but if you are on a team, at the end of the day it's just another tax you pay for more mayhem.  You can get frustrated because things didn't go your way or you can take into account that other players are also doing their thing.  I wouldn't advocate for spamming intangible but if I were on a team that had a FF or Sonic Resonance user that put the Tsoo Sorcerer in an intangible state or whatever other similar circumstance, that's just that player doing their thing and telling them to stop can cause the same type of frustration you feel when you can't do what you want.

There is a key difference here in that the actions you described (sans the intangibles) do not slow down the pace. If you nuke a mob, or take an alpha for somebody else... cool, that is mutually beneficial in the end you you go to the next mob. KB and Intangible directly interrupt you in a way that makes you either have to change course drastically (chase or change target/area completely) or actually wait for the power to wear off, adding another factor to the frustration.

 

People don't care if you Nova and send dead bodies everywhere (well, unless they're a warshade), they only care about the survivors that are flung everywehre that need to be mopped up more slowly than if they were still bunched up.

 

People don't care if you held the enemy before you were able to apply your mez, they care if you caged the enemy and now they cannot do anything but wait for a minute.

 

Quote

But comic book action is mobile.  It's rare to keep a confrontation isolated to 12x12 tiles in a room.  When Toad lashes Storm with his tongue and flings her away from her allies, that doesn't end the fight...but then most characters aim to have "knockback protection" so they can't be moved.  The Hulk doesn't stand his ground while throwing punches, he grabs and drags and throws and jumps and stomps.  Fights can span entire neighborhoods or cities.

 

You have to take into consideration the medium the game is in.  Would be fun if KB could literally fling you from north to south Steel Canyon and through buildings if they get in the way but at the end of the day, players don't want that.  They want their AoEs saturated and the mob spawns to be neat and uniform.

And what do most people want to do?  DPS.

Toad vs Storm is more akin to a PvP encounter or an EB fight, which would make sense for less KB effect as both you would reckon would have some amount of KB protection.... to a degree. If Toad flung Storm, odds are Storm has KB protection via Hover where she can recover quickly. If Storm used hurricane force winds on Toad and sent him off like Team Rocket? Different story.

 

As for the Hulk, I think this is where we can get into different magnitudes.

 

 

Here, Hulk knocks back a similarly strong opponent with the Hulkbuster. Tony in this scene takes relatively low magnitude and is not sent too too far and is not down for very long.

 

 

 

Another scene vs Thor, he launches Thor with high magnitude KB and he impacts a wall, stunning him for a good while and definitely dealing some bonus damage.

 

 

Hulk vs a CoH LT (compared to him), the KB defeats him outright.

 

 

Not all magnitude KB is impactful, but I feel especially high Mag KB should be as that is generally where we see it being annoying when people are flung everywhere vs being flung a few feet.

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I wouldn't advocate for spamming intangible but if I were on a team that had a FF or Sonic Resonance user that put the Tsoo Sorcerer in an intangible state or whatever other similar circumstance, that's just that player doing their thing and telling them to stop can cause the same type of frustration you feel when you can't do what you want.

Oh you my dear, have not met a proper troll. Back in June, when MSRs were all the rage moreso than today, a wonderful individual named "Patty Sue" an FF/Energy Defender would go around spamming Detention Field on the Rikti Pylons. This caused the league about 20-30 minutes worth of griefing. 

 

On another such occasion with this wretched excuse of a human being, during a Citadel TF, Sue would spam Detention Field on Vandal for over 20 minutes before being kicked by the leader. I warned the leader beforehand about this person. This power can effectively hold an entire team hostage for eternity theoretically against an AV...

[Frostweaver]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Okay, you're not arguing in good faith.  You're just arguing to argue.

Welcome to ignore.

And you find game balance PERSONALLY offensive. I get it.

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

There is a key difference here in that the actions you described (sans the intangibles) do not slow down the pace. If you nuke a mob, or take an alpha for somebody else... cool, that is mutually beneficial in the end you you go to the next mob. KB and Intangible directly interrupt you in a way that makes you either have to change course drastically (chase or change target/area completely) or actually wait for the power to wear off, adding another factor to the frustration.

Now you're just adding qualifiers.  Frustration is frustration but the ultimate end isn't any different whether it's someone carrying the team, adding some seconds to an encounter or making you have to toss out one extra ranged or melee attack.  All the extra qualifiers do is shift who feels what frustration but as your initial response points to, this is all just feelings and how you deal with them.  It's no different from someone telling me "if you want a harder game, nerf yourself, don't team with certain builds, etc etc".  If KB isn't in your spectrum of meta then it's on you to prune your teams/builds, not shift the game to accommodate you.

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Toad vs Storm is more akin to a PvP encounter or an EB fight, which would make sense for less KB effect as both you would reckon would have some amount of KB protection.... to a degree. If Toad flung Storm, odds are Storm has KB protection via Hover where she can recover quickly. If Storm used hurricane force winds on Toad and sent him off like Team Rocket? Different story.

 

As for the Hulk, I think this is where we can get into different magnitudes.

 

Here, Hulk knocks back a similarly strong opponent with the Hulkbuster. Tony in this scene takes relatively low magnitude and is not sent too too far and is not down for very long.

 

Another scene vs Thor, he launches Thor with high magnitude KB and he impacts a wall, stunning him for a good while and definitely dealing some bonus damage.

Hulk vs a CoH LT (compared to him), the KB defeats him outright.

 

Not all magnitude KB is impactful, but I feel especially high Mag KB should be as that is generally where we see it being annoying when people are flung everywhere vs being flung a few feet.

 

And where do levels come into play?

 

KB magnitude is higher if the target is lower level than you (also the damage).  The last example is basically a level 10 Lt vs a lvl 100 Hulk.  Ultimately these comparisons are rather irrelevant though since comicbook logic in power levels is convoluted and again, talking about KB, it is wholly dependent on the medium you're using it in.  It's plenty "super" for this game despite not being the pre-rendered cutscene type of spectacle you're trying to make it to be.  Whether you feel KD is just as super or not is just preference.

 

Also, that last example, the guy was likely dead upon impact.  The g forces that accelerated him that fast likely broke his neck.  The KB didn't kill him, the foot did.

[plainguy]

I think they should remove Assault Rifle.

It does smash and lethal damage and that is the most resisted damage in the game, thus lowest DPS. Which in turn means someone on my team with AR is dragging the team down on its DPS per second ratio.  

 

I thought I was nuts and loved to argue. 

 

If your sitting at your keyboard and blowing your top because someone used KB powers you are crazy.. You have forgotten the point of what playing a MMO game is.  If you sit there and even say "Oh, come on" your nuts.. If you are really calculating your DPS per X time and have this as a COX requirement. You are nuts..

I just can't keep pushing how absurd this discussion is. 

There is a reason why Warcraft created Classic servers.. 

 

 

Has anyone been on level 50 team lately ? How many people really die ? Its usually the same player repeatedly because their build sucks.  Or one or two players that are really not 50 yet and jumping the gun.  If I die I am literally caught off guard. I'm holy cow where did that come from ?  I just rarely die and yea I'm that good (lol).

 

Like are people on a 8 man team where 7 are energy blasters ?    

 

I think Nova is one of the coolest powers. It looks devastating even if it wasn't. 

Some of the Energy blast effects are cool. That semi circle glow with a beam shooting out.. 

 

Whats next offended by a color ?  Bright is too bright it hurts my eyes, remove it.

 

Can someone just lock this thread and move your ideas to suggestions.. 

 

1. Character option to change KB to KD.

2. Null the Gull to change KB to KD.

3. IO sets to change KB to KD.. 

 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Disclaimer, when I play max lvl as of late I'm that energy blaster 

 

Rocking 320% constant recharge blasting energy torrent and explosive blast

 

Only nova has a KD io in it and I fire that every 27sec or so, the other AoEs rock around 3 sec recharges and I can just fire them back and forth and knock crap everywhere.

 

I actively try to control the KB with hover and angling myself so that knocks go into the ground or against walls, but this is not always viable and I can watch as sometimes rng sends enemies into places that cause team mates to chase because of me using my powers, and I cant reliably control how it works due to said rng outside of nova. If the blasts had consistent knockback, even with the massive recharge I could reliably control it to leverage it for the team using the map, but oh well.

 

So, given how I'm constantly spamming my AoEs and even watching when I mess them up and scatter, would I like for energy blast to be all KD instead?

 

NO

 

The identity for energy blast is to knock people around, just look at Power Push and Nova and how they yeet people with some if the strongest base KBs in the game. What I have a problem with is that you do not consistently get to knock people around without using either your nuke or a ST power that only does KB (essentially), which makes it a dubious pick for a blaster.  Otherwise it's all RNG whether your signature effect even comes into play. The other part I'm missing is like, if you do occasionally get "stronger hits" that knock back, they dont really feel stronger aside from having some push to em and they sont really emulate the power shown in the gifs above.

 

There is also no room or incentive to slot for Knockback in... well pretty much any power outside of the KB procs which is unfortunate. If high magnitudes of KB did some sort of bonus it would be worthwhile to slot these powers for that and use the underused KB sets to kill multiple birds with one stone.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Peacemoon]

On 4/5/2020 at 3:07 PM, Redlynne said:

Knockback is GREAT ... but only if you can control it so as to make it happen ON DEMAND.

Something as simple as an inherent universal toggle power would suffice.

Toggle on to clamp Knockback to no more than 0.75 mage, converting all Knockback into Knockdown.

Toggle off to inflict full Knockback.

Don't bother with an animation for the toggle and give it as short of a casting time as is feasible (I'm thinking like 0.1s, so nearly instant).

 

You now have the means at the disposal of the Players to manage the ... severity ... of Knockback under differing conditions and situations.

EVERYBODY WINS.

 

... well, except for the Haters of course ...

This is a really good suggestion. Especially as their are advantages to both KB and KD, and sometimes it’s nice to have one or the other.

Conceptually the hero could change the way they channel their powers to either fling targets away or curve ball them down onto the ground.