Homecoming Server Update (April 5th): Nemesis Plots, Contests and Progression

[Doc_Scorpion]

14 minutes ago, Septipheran said:

If I donate 100 mil inf to each of you, or whatever it is that you consider "a lot," can you all just get together and make a joint promise to stop this ridiculousness?

The only "ridiculousness" in this conversation is coming from the one individual insisting that there's Only One True Way to play and that everyone must be forced to play that way.

[Peacemoon]

Some interesting decisions regarding enhancements, and completely different to what I would have done, but I’m a bit confused as to how enhancements will now scale.

 

Previously if you exemplered down to 10 my understanding was your enhancements would scale down to DO level, no matter what you had slotted. Will this still be the case?

 

Regarding power creep and saying it’s not a big concern for you, I would absolutely think about power creep. We’ve just had a huge thread on the general forum about the game being too easy, and people’s opinions. The general consensus was that most people were happy with the 1-20 game. I would be really careful upsetting the low level difficulty because things are already pretty easy at that level.

 

Basically consider what you are trying to fix. If it’s about convenience, like enhancements expiring too quickly at rapid level increases, then focus on that. If changing the power levels of heroes at low levels is not something you want to change, then avoid messing with that. I don’t think it’s necessary collateral damage. 
 

Personally when we talk about convenience I would be more inclined to simply stop TO/DO/SOs from expiring. Let them still work as -2 to +3 levels relative as now, but stop them from going red and switching off altogether. To me that is a simpler fix, with a lot less unintended consequences to the early game which is largely enjoyed. (The low level game can already be very quickly skipped with double xp for those that wish). There would still be advantages to upgrading, but if you wanted to be lazy, like me, at least they would continue to work!

 

If we are going to make a change, it should be to better introduce and promote IOs to the playerbase. For example allow standard IOs to be bought from the shops from 25, for a premium, and add crafting stations to the shops encouraging people to craft their enhancements for a cheaper rate. High level SO shops used to be gated by missions. Maybe repurpose those to better introduce IOs. Unfortunately the university is not a place a lot of uninitiated players  bother visiting.

[skoryy]

My usual route these days is to DFB three/four times for the bonuses, maybe run a team for Montague's arc, TF the rest of the way to 22, then finally start thinking about enhancements.  This will make it less painful to solo or small team story arcs on my way up, which is going to especially helpful red and goldside.  I like it!

[Peerless Girl]

9 hours ago, Number Six said:

The upgrade screen only saves you from having to run back and manually buy a bunch of replacements. You do still need to visit stores to fill new slots you get at those levels, unless you're a master planner and carry around full trays for 20 levels at a time.

 

That is one advantage that generic IOs still have* -- you can buy them from just about anywhere with /ah. I almost wish Paragon had never put that in, but between that and emailable items, that ship sailed long ago.

 

* Technically you could buy SOs off the market too, but the supply isn't really there.

Oooooh. Ok, then yes, that is much better. I like that. And yes, I too have lamented the /ah command (while still using it for convenience. You are correct however, that ship (of Heroes?) sailed long ago. Call me on board with this then, Six. It's true, the Cylons really DO have a plan. 

[Peerless Girl]

10 hours ago, Septipheran said:

My point is that the devs are wasting precious development resources on optimizing and improving gray-con throwaway gear. It's a waste of their time and everyone else's. This is a good opportunity to implement more robust IO system tutorials, rather than doing what they're doing. My original point was that we already have a substantial portion of the playerbase who is not using IO's. This is further incentivizing them to not learn how to properly build their characters. 

 

Six already said it was a very small use of resources. 

 

10 hours ago, Doomrider said:

The problem with this arguement, is we're not really playing the same game we were back then. The HC team has already drastically changed things including making incarnate powers and IO's so much easier to acquire than they were on live, increasing the the prevalence of top end IO builds which has drastically had an impact on the difficulty of the content AS it was designed. 

 

Straw man unrelated arguments don't further your original goal. They also made making money easier, and the game easier sooner.

 

10 hours ago, Septipheran said:

We're playing a game that has Kallisti Wharf completely unpopulated. No street sweeping, no missions, no nothin'.

 

I've been waiting for the Coming Storm to come since 2012. The devs seem hell-bent on spending their time fixing stuff that isn't even broken in the first place. They've already nerfed the majority of my live characters to the point that I don't even want to play them anymore. I guess at this point, I'm just on the ground having enough of all their "improvements" and hoping that they just start to move the game forward...

 

I would rather wait until writers could put together a compelling story and new missions than I would have it rushed and hurried (if it ever comes at all).

 

10 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Absolutely hard no vote on removing SOs.

 

The game architecture is not even remotely designed for it, nor should it be. SOs exist for a good reason, what should be built, and now can be, is a comprehensive progression from SO to IO and a thorough instruction system.

 

The game should not be balanced around io's.

 

Agreed. I vote a hard no on that because by that same logic....(see my next reply).

 

9 hours ago, Septipheran said:

By level 30, you should have your LOTG's, miracle uniques, steadfast/glad armor/shield wall 3%'s slotted, etc.

 

Why would we want to create new systems that further encourage the weakest members of the playerbase to be unable to keep up with their peers?

 

Now you're just being silly. By the same token, how about I advocate just removing the entire IO system, the market, and return us back to issue 8, and force YOU to use only SOs? Your logic makes about as much sense as that. There is no one true way to play (except the dev's way of course :P) and thankfully, you're not the kind of person in a position to decide that for all of us, and neither am I, otherwise the AE wouldn't be giving influence at all, and would only give XP and tickets. There are reasons one person's play-style and opinions don't dictate everyone elses, because it's selfish and short-sighted. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Peerless Girl
Forgot to reply to one of my quotes. oops.

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, skoryy said:

My usual route these days is to DFB three/four times for the bonuses, maybe run a team for Montague's arc, TF the rest of the way to 22, then finally start thinking about enhancements.  This will make it less painful to solo or small team story arcs on my way up, which is going to especially helpful red and goldside.  I like it!

This is a great way to get past those horrible low levels, particularly on Support clas... archetypes.

[Peacemoon]

I think what we all need to do is stay calm and rational. The beauty of CoH is it can be enjoyed in so many ways.

There are 

1) People who don’t slot at all at low level,

2) People who use regular enhancements,

3) People who craft regular IOs but no set bonuses, so they don’t need to keep replacing enhancements

4) People who give their characters full IO sets immediately. 
5) People who boost/skip low level content completely. 
 

So of these types of people, type 4 & 5 won’t be impacted by this at all. They’re really interested in this subject anyway.

 

People of type 1-3 are the interesting sectors of CoH society effected by this. They either use no enhancements, regular enhancements, or regular IOs (that mirror TO/DOs in performance). 
 

So does this change help them?
Well the no enhancements guy might use enhancements that he can upgrade remotely, but he is keeping things simple and this is a hassle and another-thing-to-learn. His performance however would be sharply decreased relative to others who now have SOs.

The regular enhancements guy would probably use the system of upgrading, but again it’s another system to learn in an already complicated system. Also he might upgrade so often he has no influence for other things.

The regular IOs guy would only use this if low level IOs remain at their current %s, whereas everyone else is running full-power SOs.

 

So my feedback overall? Pretty negative I’m afraid. 
1) It makes a complicated system even more complicated by adding a new button to the enhancement window. Low level SOs will also be origin dependent whereas currently they’re universal.

2) Power creep. No matter how you cut this, this will be a thing. Low level mobs are designed, in terms of health, damage and abilities, for TO/DO/low level IOs. Introducing SOs at a low level, if they keep the same %s from level 30+, will have huge ramifications for the low level game.

Now if you are a type 4 or 5 person then this might not concern you, but this change isn’t intended or will effect you either. I really think you have to take the power creep issue seriously, as some people play the low level game exclusively for this reason.

 

I DO AGREE with what you’re trying to fix. Namely enhancements at low levels feel unrewarding. You either level too fast (not helped by double xp, lets face it), or they give little benefit.

However there is nothing wrong with low level difficulty and for some people that is a bigger deal than you think. As others have said, it’s a journey to greatness. For those that don’t like this journey there are already the option to skip this. My defender went from 10 to 18 in one Positron TF. He had no enhancements slotted. I was fine with this. But don’t mess with the game for everyone else - it feels like too big a change.

 

Just to reiterate my preferred solution that you should consider. Stop TO/DO/SO enhancements from expiring. It makes no changes to the power creep, doesn’t add any extra enhancement complications (there are enough already!), and largely solves the main issue of leveling de-gearing your character. I can’t see a negative really. 

No matter how high you level, enhancements should always operate at -2 and never switch off. Easy. Done.

 

[Doomrider]

2 hours ago, Peerless Girl said:

 

Straw man unrelated arguments don't further your original goal. They also made making money easier, and the game easier sooner.

 

Lol. What original goal are you talking about? I was responding to something you said and it was my only post... :S and you just basically re-iterated the same thing I said in less words. 

[Peerless Girl]

1 minute ago, Doomrider said:

Lol. What original goal are you talking about? I was responding to something you said and it was my only post... :S and you just basically re-iterated the same thing I said in less words. 

Reasonable attempt to twist my logic, I'll give you a 5/10, but most of the judges will probably score you lower. 😛

[Doomrider]

2 minutes ago, Peerless Girl said:

Reasonable attempt to twist my logic, I'll give you a 5/10, but most of the judges will probably score you lower. 😛

Twist your logic?  I have no idea what your going on about here honestly... I'm just going to leave it at this. This has been a genuinely confusing interaction. Carry on. 

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

1) It makes a complicated system even more complicated by adding a new button to the enhancement window.

The new button (singular) does nothing the player can't or doesn't do manually.  The added complexity is minimal.
 

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

Power creep. No matter how you cut this, this will be a thing. Low level mobs are designed, in terms of health, damage and abilities, for TO/DO/low level IOs. Introducing SOs at a low level, if they keep the same %s from level 30+, will have huge ramifications for the low level game.

Yes, power creep will be a thing.  That will be offset by the small number of slots available, and to some extent by cost.  Six has said they plan to adjust things so the impact of cost is lessened, but I don't think the planned changes will eliminate it entirely.  (Nor should it.)  The big change will be people funded by sugar daddies, but those folks are already top-of-the-line for their level, so I'm not sure much will change there.

OTOH, how many people actually play those lower levels?  My experience suggests it's a relatively small percentage - people DfB up to their late teens/early twenties.

For the small percentage of us who actually play the lower level game, it'll be a godsend and make the experience much more pleasant.  It might even induce more people to play the sub-20 (or even sub-10) game...  and that's nothing but good for the game overall.  Almost anything that breaks the "powerlevel (read: DfB) to 20" cycle is desirable as it breaks the current social environment of "skip most of the game, rush to 50".

Edited April 6, 2020 by Doc_Scorpion

[Redlynne]

20 hours ago, Jimmy said:

With that out of the way, we’d like to present the first set of experiments, all aimed at improving the gameplay surrounding Enhancements. First up is a new feature to streamline Enhancement upgrades:

 

 

This feature allows you to easily upgrade any TO, DO and SO Enhancements slotted into your powers without needing to visit a vendor. The game will simply calculate the influence cost of upgrading all of your Enhancements to the maximum you can currently slot (3 above your current level, capping at level 50), and then ask you to confirm.

 

In addition, we’re making SOs available from stores beginning at level 5, and the Outbreak / Breakout tutorials will now give new characters damage SOs instead of TOs. Mission completion at any level now has a chance of dropping a random Power 10 SO and arc completion guarantees a random Power 10 SO that matches your origin. Yin’s market has also received an update and now sells special enhancements usable by any origin, which are also much cheaper than enhancements found at other stores.

 

 

These improvements are aimed at tackling Enhancements just not being that useful in the lower levels due to how quickly they expire. The goal is to allow you to begin (and continue using) standard enhancements as you level a character, only swapping over to IOs when you want to - rather than feeling forced to do so in order to avoid Enhancements expiring every few levels.

I see where you're going with these changes and ... I think you're making a mistake.

 

I'd recommend that any kind of upgrade of TO, DO, SO be done differently, if you're going to do it at all, be done AT THE VENDOR.  Basically what you do is you add an option into the Vendor choices to simply upgrade all TO/DO/SO for all enhancements already slotted, giving you the price in a popup to confirm the choice for doing all of them simultaneously.  That way, you upgrade them all in parallel, rather than manually clicking through each and every single one on the Enhancements window one by one.

 

 

 

As for getting rid of TOs and DOs so that there's only SOs from the beginning ... HARD PASS NO.

 

My reason for taking this position is that everything in Levels 1-20 is scaled for TOs and DOs.  What you're proposing is a MASSIVE POWER CREEP for the earliest levels of the game when people need to be learning how stuff works and fits together.

 

 

 

Making mission completions have a random chance to drop a random Power 10 SO also sounds like a mistake, so I'll take a NO VOTE on this one as well.

[Rathulfr]

Wow, I usually agree (or at least don't often disagree) with @Redlynne, but I'm kind of surprised we're so far apart on this issue.

 

[kureneko]

I like the idea of the "Upgrade" button for enhancements.  I'm one of these strange people that waits till around 47 or so to slot IO's.  The only suggestion I might make to the "Upgrade" idea is that we should be able to click on specific enhancements.  Highlighting them for upgrading so that the cost could be manageable.  You could also just add an "Upgrade All" button and do what the example showed.  Just my own input. ^_^

[Peacemoon]

7 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

The new button (singular) does nothing the player can't or doesn't do manually.  The added complexity is minimal.
 

Yes, power creep will be a thing.  That will be offset by the small number of slots available, and to some extent by cost.  Six has said they plan to adjust things so the impact of cost is lessened, but I don't think the planned changes will eliminate it entirely.  (Nor should it.)  The big change will be people funded by sugar daddies, but those folks are already top-of-the-line for their level, so I'm not sure much will change there.

OTOH, how many people actually play those lower levels?  My experience suggests it's a relatively small percentage - people DfB up to their late teens/early twenties.

For the small percentage of us who actually play the lower level game, it'll be a godsend and make the experience much more pleasant.  It might even induce more people to play the sub-20 (or even sub-10) game...  and that's nothing but good for the game overall.  Almost anything that breaks the "powerlevel (read:DfB) to 20" cycle is desirable as it breaks the current social environment of "skip most of the game, rush to 50".

Well I don’t disagree everything you’ve written. With double xp and good teams you can get to 20 in 2 hours without trying.

 

But your argument is drifting away from enhancement convenience and towards the benefits of power creep. 

I think if we polled the playerbase on whether people think the 1-20 experience is ‘too hard’ or ‘fine as it is’ most people would answer fine.

Which means the power creep is not only unnecessary, it’s liable to make the game worse rather than better.

 

In my mind making enhancements not expire would be a much cleaner fix. It would help immensely with QoL whilst sidestepping this whole power creep debate.
 

It’s not that I don’t enjoy being powerful. I like exemplering down as my level 50 full epics hero. But that’s not experience I’d want as ungeared lowbie. I hear what you’re saying about limited slots. But I still think this is completely unnecessary. 
 

Also I see plenty of non-DFB teams. This might be an everlasting server thing though?

[iBot]

My initial thought: why?  I am a part of the camp of "doesn't bother with TO/DO/SO at all".  It really has nothing to do with how "easy" or "hard" it is to upgrade them.  My reasoning is that it is very fast to get to level 7 (start of IOs) and that by level 12 IOs are better than anything else without the need to upgrade them again until 20s.  I only slot IOs when I think I may want to solo the character a little bit.  Otherwise just leveling up with SG mates usually blasts a new character into the mid 20s in one solid hour of missions.  So there isn't a lot to be gained by slotting anything until level 22 which would be the normal start of SOs anyway.

 

Sometimes I buy attuned sets that help and not bother again until the level break points where new sets become available.  I do upgrade IOs at a few times when I've got too many empty slots to ignore.  So any change to SO enhancements is not going to change anything I do as I'm leveling a character unless the new SOs offer something beyond what the generic IOs at 15 or attuned sets offer.

 

Personally I always thought that the introduction of IOs to the game was a major mistake since it completely removed the usefulness of TO/DO/SO progression.  I suppose for a completely brand new player without a level 50 cash cow it makes sense to give them a way to try to reduce the stress of upgrading.  But gamers being the humans that they are will quickly research how to make inf faster and rapidly leave the initial phase of starting behind.  And it certainly doesn't take a whole lot of inf to outfit a brand new character in IOs even if you take into account buying all the required salvage and recipes.

 

People play the low levels or skip the low levels for a variety of reason that I doubt has much to do with enhancements.  I know players that blast new characters to 50 using a farming second account.  I know players that blast new characters to 50 running nothing but radios and TFs in teams at +4/8.  I know players that still enjoy playing through story arcs to 50.  I know players that actually shut off xp while leveling so that they can play through content "naturally" instead of having to redo it in Ouro and plan out what arcs they want to hit story pillars in leveling.  So while I certainly appreciate all that the HC team has and is doing for our favorite city, I do question the need to improve this particular game system.  Now if the devs told me that they are going to add a button that allows me to sell all the useless TO/DO/SO drops in my tray without the need to go to a vendor I'm all in.  Or for that matter, remove TO/DO/SO drops all together and just give me the extra Inf.

[Peerless Girl]

3 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

As for getting rid of TOs and DOs so that there's only SOs from the beginning ... HARD PASS NO.

 

My reason for taking this position is that everything in Levels 1-20 is scaled for TOs and DOs.  What you're proposing is a MASSIVE POWER CREEP for the earliest levels of the game when people need to be learning how stuff works and fits together.

 

 

 

Making mission completions have a random chance to drop a random Power 10 SO also sounds like a mistake, so I'll take a NO VOTE on this one as well.

I see exactly where Six is going, and the entire point is NOT to have to go to a vendor all the time (but you DO need to go to add new enhancements, so they're not totally invalidated). There's no really much danger of "power creep" at the early levels due to the sheer lack of slots you have, and no stuff wasn't "scaled to TOs and DOs" even in Paragon's day. Some of the absolute latest content (the Matthew Habashy arc in particular) might be, but if you bypass or run the old tutorial and go into Origin Contacts, hell no it's not, that stuff was hard from the get-go, and will only now be "slightly better". I'll vote yes on these changes (or at minimum, test them out before complaining). 

 

[Peacemoon]

1 minute ago, Peerless Girl said:

I see exactly where Six is going, and the entire point is NOT to have to go to a vendor all the time (but you DO need to go to add new enhancements, so they're not totally invalidated). There's no really much danger of "power creep" at the early levels due to the sheer lack of slots you have, and no stuff wasn't "scaled to TOs and DOs" even in Paragon's day. Some of the absolute latest content (the Matthew Habashy arc in particular) might be, but if you bypass or run the old tutorial and go into Origin Contacts, hell no it's not, that stuff was hard from the get-go, and will only now be "slightly better". I'll vote yes on these changes (or at minimum, test them out before complaining). 

 

He means high level enhancements are scaled down to TO/DO percentages. Even if you are a full SO geared character your enhancements are not as powerful at low level.

 

if we are trying to stop people going to the shop, why not just stop enhancements expiring from leveling? Have a floor of effectiveness at -2. If you outlevel the enhancement more than that then just keep it as -2 rather than switching it off. 

[Indystruck]

7 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

As for getting rid of TOs and DOs so that there's only SOs from the beginning ... HARD PASS NO.

 

My reason for taking this position is that everything in Levels 1-20 is scaled for TOs and DOs.  What you're proposing is a MASSIVE POWER CREEP for the earliest levels of the game when people need to be learning how stuff works and fits together.

 

Making mission completions have a random chance to drop a random Power 10 SO also sounds like a mistake, so I'll take a NO VOTE on this one as well.

 

The majority of players, I am willing to bet, do not see 1-20 content that isn't DFB. I know, I know, "but that's not everyone," buuuuut DFB as implemented by devs? Was new content that had SOs attached. At early levels. Because TOs are a joke. A 3% enhancement is nothing, like, straight up. I could just slot absolutely nothing for all the improvement TOs offer. A curve of DOs->SOs->IOs would be nice, but, in absence of that, SOs->IOs seems logical enough.

[Peacemoon]

Just now, Indystruck said:

 

The majority of players, I am willing to bet, do not see 1-20 content that isn't DFB. I know, I know, "but that's not everyone," buuuuut DFB as implemented by devs? Was new content that had SOs attached. At early levels. Because TOs are a joke. A 3% enhancement is nothing, like, straight up. I could just slot absolutely nothing for all the improvement TOs offer. A curve of DOs->SOs->IOs would be nice, but, in absence of that, SOs->IOs seems logical enough.

Saying a lot of players skip 1-20 through double xp and DfB (note a lot not all), is not a strong argument for changing the 1-20 enhancements.

 

unless you’re saying that, with SOs available, they’re more likely to take the long way to 20, just needed to be bribed? 🤔

[Indystruck]

Just now, Peacemoon said:

Saying a lot of players skip 1-20 through double xp and DfB (note a lot not all), is not a strong argument for changing the 1-20 enhancements.

 

unless you’re saying that, with SOs available, they’re more likely to take the long way to 20, just needed to be bribed? 🤔

 

I mean, isn't it? It's just standardization and bloat removal.

[Peacemoon]

Just now, Indystruck said:

 

I mean, isn't it? It's just standardization and bloat removal.

Its not bloat removal. There are very good reasons we don’t have SOs at low level.

 

The whole idea is that characters are effective at that level with poor slotting. So that there isn’t a huge requirement to slot effectively. So people can learn their characters and the game.

 

TOs do hardly anything because at that level you’re learning about the concept of slotting, and mobs are balanced around no enhancements at all.

And for those that ‘want to skip 1-20’ then, as mentioned, they already can, and this change won’t really effect them anyway.

[Redlynne]

12 minutes ago, Peerless Girl said:

the entire point is NOT to have to go to a vendor all the time

You already don't have to go to the vendor all the time ... IOs exist.

You already don't have to go to the vendor all the time ... only every 5 levels (and after every mission complete to sell to the vendors anyway).

[ArchVileTerror]

A mildly tangential thought occurs . . . 

If Training Origin Enhancements are meant to only be the training wheels which players use to learn how Enhancements work . . . 

 

Why not just make those entirely free?

Zero purchase cost.

Zero resale value.

(Zero drop rate, so they don't fill up the inventory.)

 

The bonuses they provide are minimal to the point of being laughable, but there are conceivably new players who just need to muck around with the Enhancement screen to see how it works.  That way they don't have to get removed from the game either.

Training wheels.

[Abraxus]

4 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

You already don't have to go to the vendor all the time ... IOs exist.

You already don't have to go to the vendor all the time ... only every 5 levels (and after every mission complete to sell to the vendors anyway).

I/Os should NEVER be made the only choice.  You wanna argue that SOs make noobs too powerful.  Perhaps.  So, crank up the difficulty accordingly.  But, nobody should be forced to learn the entire I/O system for casual play.