Make Red Side Great Again

[Rathulfr]

Just now, ArchVileTerror said:

Sadly, Arachnos is balanced around level Tiers.  That would mean any Invasion in a low level zone would have Wolf Spiders, who are a breeze to knock down for Incarnates, while it would be nothing but insanity in high level zones, where low level players wouldn't be able to contribute so well.

 

Unless they made a Standardize Arachnos Group specifically for Invasion events?  That seems like a bit of work.

I think Henchpets with the first Upgrade applied are just the right difficulty for every level range.

Ah, good point.  I hadn't considered that.

[ArchVileTerror]

Another point worth making:  This event WOULD have to be on some kind of timer, so we're not looking at perpetual invasions.  Having it so the Trial has the CHANCE of failure, is also potentially a way to limit "invasion spam."

 

Again, I'm not suggesting this idea is simple.  It will definitely be a bit of work.

I'm saying it's a bit of work that is worthwhile.

[Galaxy Brain]

Redside has always been proactive, hell just look at Mayhem missions. Giving redside more proactive content that lets your villain be the big bad in a tangible way would be awesome.

 

Hell, maybe make it tied to Villain Merits somehow that you could gain via Redside storyarcs and SF's to encourage playing that side more.

[Rathulfr]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Redside has always been proactive, hell just look at Mayhem missions. Giving redside more proactive content that lets your villain be the big bad in a tangible way would be awesome.

 

Hell, maybe make it tied to Villain Merits somehow that you could gain via Redside storyarcs and SF's to encourage playing that side more.

 

Yes! I like the idea of my villain being the instigator of zone-wide catastrophe on Paragon City.  That would definitely feel more villainous than merely schlepping for Lord Refuse.

 

I'd love to see a server-wide announcement along the lines of "Wrathstar [my evil twin] has unleashed the wrath of [villain group] on [zone name]!"

 

Of course, that's probably not practical, as I probably wouldn't be completing the SF solo, and I'd want all of my compatriots to get credit for the havoc being wreaked.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Shadowsleuth]

We already have zombie invasions triggered by TFs/SFs, If you complete the Katie Hannon TF, a random blue side zone is invaded by zombies.  If you complete the Virgil Tarikoss SF, a random red side zone is invaded by zombies.

 

TFs/SFs that trigger invasions on the opposite side would be awesome, especially if triggers a random villain group invasion in a random zone on the other side.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Shadowsleuth

[BZRKR]

On the Invasions idea:

What if the zones/ invader types/ how many Lt's Bosses and (possibly EB's) spawned were dependent on how many "points" were scored during the mini-Trial in the same vein as the "ratings" points from the Mr. G villain of the month missions? Make the "top score" tuned to what a full team of maxed-out incarnates can do (thus providing more difficult content for the highest end builds). Afterwards, the  "Choose Your Invasion!" could let players (the team leader?) "spend" the points scored to pick lower level zones to invade or select higher level villain groups to pull the invaders from or select stronger individual invaders, with the "Elite Bosses with Mez powers attack Atlas Park" being a very hard to reach perfect score. Most of the time, Invasions would be a choice of "Fast, Good, Pretty - Pick two"

[MTeague]

19 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Of course, that's probably not practical, as I probably wouldn't be completing the SF solo, and I'd want all of my compatriots to get credit for the havoc being wreaked.

 

Well, I'd be fine with Strike Force Leader's name being announced.

I mean, as a side benefit, that might be more people step up to the plate and lead a TF, too.

At least give them that little nudge that, it's okay, it's just a Virgil Tarikoss Strike Force, it's really not that bad to lead....   🙂

Edited April 6, 2020 by MTeague

[Shadowsleuth]

How about when the invasion event ends it hits everyone with a limited time zone-wide buff that generates increased reward drops for doing missions?

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

While it sounds like a good idea at first glance, I doubt it will actually solve the problem.  What will happen is that we'll see a surge of Null the Gull Vigilantes that go slumming for double (quadruple) XP for a brief period of time, and then they'll all shift back to blue side when the period is over.

 

Even in its hey day, red side never appealed to most players.  It has always been significantly underpopulated, even in the best of times, right after CoV launched.  We all created our villains back then to check out the new content, and a few of us even got a few to 50.  Then later we all we went back to playing heroes, as usual.

 

 

That's why I suggested double INF and double reward merits, NOT XP.  That will give incentives to play the story arcs without outleveling them.  At least, not nearly as often as you would with double XP.  I doubt all would shift back to blue side.  Most, probably.  But those who wouldn't would be a net boon.

 

I know this.  I've been playing City of Heroes since Issue 3, and City of Villains since Issue 6.  I much, much prefer red side.  I did not go back to playing heroes.  Not strictly, anyway.  I find blue side dull and boring.  My first couple of toons on Homecoming were blue side because, unfortunately, that's where most of my friends prefer to play and we didn't know that you could have co-op supergroups.  Now that I do, all of my other toons since then are red side.

 

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I'm continually perplexed by how many people don't enjoy redside at all.  But in the end, I don't really *need* to understand it. 

Not their cup of tea, okay.  Nothing I can really do to change that.

 

Bribing people to play redside is either not going to work (not big enough bribe) or will be resented / percieved as unfair (too big a bribe).

 

I will say the many things that I enjoy about redside, and why I think people should give it more of a try than maybe they have in the past.

• Far more interesting architecture.  less glass-and-steel, more twisty-turney neighborhoods, tunnels where you might not expect them, etc.  
• Different and equally amusing billboards around town.
• NO "Filler" missions. That's right folks.  Everything's a story arc.  No "the Security Chief in Perez Park asked for you by name". or random "kill 50 carnies in peregrine island"
• yes, it starts out City of Lackeys, but it doesn't STAY that way.  As you level, the tone of the missions changes more and your character is treated with much more respect in the dialogue. 
• Mayhem missions.  ZOMG so much fun.  Really lets you /flex and feel your villain come into their own.  You are just Big Mean Stompy and all shall fall before you.
• Tip missions.  Much better villain / rogue flavoring. 

 

but people are gonna try it, or they won't. 

I don't think it merits developer action. 

This isn't something where loot drops are at stake or the whole game is designed around an equal number of red vs blue.

 

And heck, what about GOLDSIDE?

 

 

I do think that developer action is needed.  IMO, the disparity between blue side and red side population is even worse now than it was back before sunset.  Why?  Mostly because the better ATs (Brutes, Corruptors, Masterminds, and VEATs), are either now available to both sides or have been significantly watered down on Homecoming to the point that most people do not think that they are worth playing.  Then there's the easy side switching, where players start characters blue side, and then use Null the Gull for a day pass to red side for access to the patron power pools, instead of actually spending some time there.

 

Half the time when I try to get a DFB started red side, I can't.  If I'm lucky, I'll get four or five others interested after a half hour of advertising.  Other times, one or zero.  This is on Excelsior, the most populated server by a wide margin.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Apparition

[MTeague]

I admit DFB has zero appeal to me, so I'm probably part of the problem there, an Excelsior redside player who would rather do low level arcs to level than DFB.

But a general mission team, I'm there.

[ArchVileTerror]

Mind you, Everlasting has the most villains of any Shard, but that's because we roleplayer types enjoy the diversity and narrative conflict offered by the story, rather than just the game mechanics and grind, as a generalization.  Even then, I think our peak is around 27% of the population being Red at any given time.

 

I do like the idea of the team who initiates the Invasion getting credit.  That's big.  That gives you a feeling of "I Did This.  _I_, DID, /THIS/!"  But there is a drawback; not everyone is in it for the glory.  If that could be programmed to be optional, that would be ideal.  Basically, add a toggle to the Trial mission itself.  Each player gets to decide whether they get credit or not.  If no players take credit, the Invasion alert reads something like "A mysterious group of villains has X,Y,Z'd!  No one knows who they are!"  That has an appeal too.

Of course, a player -could- just use a Shard-wide channel (like the new General) to declare the Invasion was their doing.  So it's not a dealbreaker if it can't be programmed in.

 

Now, I don't think it's a smart idea to make this exclusively high-level content.  Villains should have the opportunity to be involved in this straight from level 1, frankly.  However, I do think it would be okay if different level ranges offer different Invasion Events.  ie:   1 to 10 is Gangers.  11 to 25 are Soldiers.  15 to 30 are Zombies.  20 to 40 are Demons.  et cetera!  There are a lot of different ways we could implement this.

 

I also like the idea that if the Heroes win a Zone Invasion, then -they- get the 1 Hour Buff.  Same deal; extra Merits from Safeguards. 

Now, some of you may ask:  "Well what's the point, then?  Wasn't this meant to incentivize Redside?"  

Fair concern, but here's the kicker:  Redside players are still the ones who have to LAUNCH this.  The whole thing is impossible without them.  The incentive is still there.  But it also ensures that if the Heroes actually manage to Win The Day, they get a little recognition for their accomplishment too.  And then the Villains are encouraged to try harder next time.

 

I figure the Invasion Win/Lose Conditions should be based on current Hero population at the point of Invasion's launch.

If there are 500 Heroes online, to Win the event, Heroes need to defeat 500 Points worth of Invading NPCs within 10 minutes.  Using the existing spawning mechanics for Invasions; good luck having just 1 Hero beat 500 Minions in 10 minutes when those Minions are spawning at a rate of 1 per 5 seconds.  So then the Heroes -have- to Rally!  If they want to defeat the Invasion, they need to band together and get enough of a presence to not only defeat the Invading NPCs, but to ramp up the spawn rate so that enough NPCs are even present.
Conversely, if it's a slow night, and there's only 100 Heroes online, a single Hero -could- potentially be all that it takes to turn the tide, if they're diligent and strong enough.

 

That would also encourage the Villains to be strategic for which time of day they plan to launch the invasion.  Do it during the Hamidon Raid, for example.  Make those Heroes SQUIRM!

 

This whole thing is just ripe with potential!

Even still, please.  Anyone who can poke holes in it:  Do so.  If there are problems, let's address them now, so they can be resolved and a better version of this idea can make its way to the Devs for review and (hopefully) implementation.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by ArchVileTerror
One small typo.

[Sakura Tenshi]

Redside needs more content to make it great again. When heroside got the Kings Row arcs, I don't think Redside got anything, admittedly because a vast majority of Blueside content is far more antiquated and the leaders of the skulls originally were Marrowsnap and Marrow Drinker appearing as dialogue-less bone daddys in the Bonefire arc.

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

I admit DFB has zero appeal to me, so I'm probably part of the problem there, an Excelsior redside player who would rather do low level arcs to level than DFB.

But a general mission team, I'm there.

 

I do both.  I run DFB (or try to), with XP turned off just for the badges and the +acc and +recovery boosts. 

[Burnt Toast]

Literally nothing you can do to entice me to play redside aside from the occasional SF and patron arc. Redside was never a heavily populated area; except for the first few months after CoV launched in 2005. 

[Galaxy Brain]

59 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

Literally nothing you can do to entice me to play redside aside from the occasional SF and patron arc. Redside was never a heavily populated area; except for the first few months after CoV launched in 2005. 

Redside only chest detail of burnt toast, + the dual titan weapons set

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

6 hours ago, MTeague said:

I admit, I would love to see a Hellion invasion of Founders Falls.  If the Hellions could you know, actually win, and not die in 2.5 milliseconds.

A Crey invasion could be interesting, too. 

Crey is one of those groups you just love to hate.  Allllllmost as good as 5th Column in that regard.

Which I personally will never understand, because no matter how much some might hate them, it doesnt change CoH lore which paints a very clear picture that without the Paragon Protectors the Rikti would surely have overwhelmed and defeated our worlds opposition of their invasion.

 

Just as the world owes a debt that can never be repaid to the Mistress of the Carnival for her part in saving Earth from the Rikti, so to every single person on Earth owes a life debt to Crey that is beyond any repayment the citizens of Earth could offer up short of absolute submission to the will of the Countess.

[ArchVileTerror]

I . . . I don't even know how to approach touching that . . . 

Whoo-boy.

 

ANYWAY!

Ahem.

Right.

 

If not generic Mastermind Henchpets, I'd also like to propose that existing factions in-game who would make good Invasion Crews are the following (albeit, we run in to the same issue as Arachnos; level ranges):

Hellions and/or Skulls

- Gangers are dime-a-dozen backstabbing scumbags ("like you!"), and will be easy to boss around.

 

Snakes

 - Just load them up in to a few cargo containers, and ship 'em off.

 

Angry Citizens

- Rile up the citizens and cause a riot!

 

Clockwork

- "Hey, Steve?" "Yeah Dave?" "Who ordered the twenty metric tonnes of scrap metal?"  "What?  Lemme see that invoice.   . . . who the hell would send us this?"  "Hey, Steve?"  "Yeah Dave?"  "Do you hear whirring and clicking?"

 

Trolls

- "There be free Dyne in garbage bin in Skyway.  Go find!"

 

Sky Raiders

 - Mercenaries, through and through.  They'll do just about anything for the right price.

 

Ghosts

 - A magical ritual used to grant vengeful spirits the animus to exact their revenge.

 

Circle Demons

 - "This Pact I make with you; releasing you upon the world to cause havoc, mayhem, and carnage, in exchange for any soul you feast upon in the act!"

 

Red Caps

 - A magical ritual to allow these creatures to exist outside of Croatoa for a short while.  They'll do the rest on their own.

 

Shivans and/or Neo-Shivans

 - Been to Bloody Bay recently?

 

Escaped Prisoners (only available in Brickstown?)

 - "Now THAT is what I call a jailbreak!"

 

Freakshow

 - Do we need an excuse?

 

Wailers

 - "Breaking News!  Jimmy Sonata's unexpected tour of Paragon City was cut short when a horde of strange demonic creatures attacked the neighbourhood."

[Shadowsleuth]

6 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I also like the idea that if the Heroes win a Zone Invasion, then -they- get the 1 Hour Buff.  Same deal; extra Merits from Safeguards. 

Now, some of you may ask:  "Well what's the point, then?  Wasn't this meant to incentivize Redside?"  

Fair concern, but here's the kicker:  Redside players are still the ones who have to LAUNCH this.  The whole thing is impossible without them.  The incentive is still there.

 

While the Heroes would only get the 1 Hour Buff from winning the Zone Invasion, the Villains should get a Buff whether or not the Heroes succeed only because they had to launch the Invasion through the successful completion of the Strikeforce.

 

The Villains should get a longer time buff if the Heroes fail the Zone Invasion; and a shorter time buff if the Heroes win.

[ArchVileTerror]

Bear in mind that completing the Trial itself is likely to offer Trial-equivalent rewards too.

Do you feel that the Villains require extra benefits from both the completion of the Trial and the failure of the Zone Invasion which is triggered by it?

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by ArchVileTerror
Clarity (I'm tired. Was in bed. Heard alert blip. Go sleep now again. Bye.)

[Shadowsleuth]

It depends on the goal.

 

If the goal is to help the Villain economy & the Strikeforce provides sufficient rewards, then no additional rewards are needed.

 

If the goal is to encourage players who normally only play hero content into playing through a few villain missions/storyarcs & getting them hooked on playing redside, then maybe.

 

The villain content may not be everyone's cup of tea, but after a few missions maybe some players might decide to stay to see what the rest of the content is like.

 

If that still doesn't hook them another idea I had (and this would be a huge task), Could all the contacts on redside be setup so that you either run the missions as normal (the writing would remain the same) or you run them as a undercover hero going through the missions trying to bring down the villain groups from within (same missions/storyarcs but written from a different angle with a different conclusion to some of the storyarcs)?

[kelika2]

I have been running into A LOT of people with pre-issue 6 knowledge and tactics recently.  Your best bet is to make a time machine, go back and release CoV alongside CoH and hope you can get enough people who have issue 0-5 memories as a villain.

 

Same crap happened in Project1999.  Sure there is a line for an orc group in the oasis, but the gorge of king xorbb will be empty for days.  crushbone will be packed to the brim, but maybe 5 people in blackburrow and that train of thought of sticking with what you know no matter the smaller carrot will always trump the biggest bonuses/rewards/doublestuffs look i tried to avoid using bigger carrot ok?

[EmmySky]

Regarding the invasions:

 

I dont like the idea of the SF team picking the zone, I can see that may be used for griefing (teams running concurrent or back to back all picking same zone).

 

Have the SF level locked for each level bracket (1-10, 11-20 etc) and have that correspond to a given zone that will be invaded if you succeed (KR, Steel etc).

 

As for the enemies in the invasion, whichever faction is predominant in the zone, have them take over for a bit.  Oh noes, suddenly there are 200 Carnies swarming PI!  Or for zones with multiple dominant factions, rotate it.  Oh noes, suddenly there are 200 Malta swarming PI!  Or they can co-op the invasion.  Oh noes, suddenly there are 200 Malta AND Carnies swarming PI!  This could also benefit heroes looking for those elusive 'defeat 5 billion sappers' type badges so the heroes depend on the villains to more quickly earn those things.

 

I am a true blue player, but I would probably switch long enough to have some agency and actually see my actions effect the game.  Buffs and merits I dont care about, I wouldnt stay for that.  As a hero, I would love to fight invasions caused by my villainous brethren.  

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

.....

I dont like the idea of the SF team picking the zone, I can see that may be used for griefing (teams running concurrent or back to back all picking same zone).

 

Have the SF level locked for each level bracket (1-10, 11-20 etc) and have that correspond to a given zone that will be invaded if you succeed (KR, Steel etc).

.....

Well, consider every week, a LOT of people will be running the weekly, one group after another after another.   So if it's level-locked by Strike Force, that is pretty much going to resutl in a chain of invasions for those zones, not unlike the Lady Gray TF / Rikti Invasions.  (side note:  Lady Gray should not count, it's co-op, not strictly villainous, and includes it's own invasions already).  But if it's Silver Mantis Week, you can bet which zone(s) would be particularly hammered that week. 

 

That wouldn't be griefing per se by a group of players actively selecting a particular zone, but, how different would it really be from the viewpoint of a disinterested Blue Player.

If anything I think letting players choose opens up the possibilty they might spread it out across different zones.

[Yomo Kimyata]

People have a lot of reasons to dislike red side, but I think the big one is that it’s too hard to get a team, so why bother?  Which makes it harder to get a team.  Some complaints about harder enemies and so many more EBs and AVs are easily solved, if you could only encourage teams.

 

How about a bonus for running teamed content on red side?  Rather than xp or inf bonuses, I’d look at that power from the super packs that increases drop percentages.  Rather than for a defined time period, put it in effect for only in teamed mission time.

 

This would encourage not only people to play red side, but to team red side.

[Darkneblade]

Only thing I don't like about redside is Grandville because Red Sky is looks depressing somewhat. Hell even Atlas Park's Night Sky looks better than this. 

I am still playing on redside though not sure why.