Blast Power Tiers (i.e. non-Sonic Blast Viability)

[Coyote]

26 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Why would you really make a Defender/Corruptor for non-teaming?

 

Well, I know that they're better in teaming, but someone may well want to play a combination of those sets, and solo. You can't run a Beam Rifle/Traps character EXCEPT as one of two ATs oriented towards teaming, so... if that's what your character concept calls for, then you're running a teaming AT. And if you wanted to solo, then you're soloing with a teaming AT.

Yes, it's a minority, but I don't think it's an inconsequential minority.

[Sir Myshkin]

39 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Why would you really make a Defender/Corruptor for non-teaming? There's very few options that aren't totally outclassed by another AT.

Hol’up. Pause on this right here.

Because.

 

On Retail I played a lot of Scrappers, pretty much every set except Staff, Ice Melee, and now Psi. On Homecoming I’ve grown to see the intrigued of doing more dynamic things with other ATs like Defenders and Corruptors, and finding unique and fun ways to make them do crazy things. I also substantially hated Blasters, yet my Ice/Atomic has become one of my favorites. My Melee are only two Scrappers and a Tanker. I’ve got three Masterminds (desperate attempts, I generally dislike playing them). Of my ~20 characters, aside from the previous mentions, they are “support” roles (Defender, Corruptor, Controller), and every single one of them is built to be solo-sufficient.

 

It isn’t about being “outclassed by another AT” but how that character plays and interacts with the dynamics of the game world. Turning on toggles and mashing that four-combo attack chain only goes so far on the “keeps my interest” meter.

So... let’s not drag AT inferiority complexes into this. 😛 

 

Unpause.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Well, realistically...

 

Why would you really make a Defender/Corruptor for non-teaming? There's very few options that aren't totally outclassed by another AT. You're really playing these ATs for their ability to contribute to a team. You have Scrappers/Stalkers/Brutes/(recently improved)Tankers/(also improved)Blasters/Sentinels that are much better known for their solo capabilities. 

 

Well I'd say people still have a lot learn in this game. 

 

I recently optimized a poison/fire that can out dps most melee builds st and massively in aoe. And of course it provides tons of force multiplication, something  which is rare to the ATs you listed. 

 

Conventional wisdom says poison is an underperforming set. So I'd say the potential of the melee ATs has been well explored because they are pretty straightforward, but many of the "support" sets have barely had the surface scratched.

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Hol’up. Pause on this right here.

Because.

 

On Retail I played a lot of Scrappers, pretty much every set except Staff, Ice Melee, and now Psi. On Homecoming I’ve grown to see the intrigued of doing more dynamic things with other ATs like Defenders and Corruptors, and finding unique and fun ways to make them do crazy things. I also substantially hated Blasters, yet my Ice/Atomic has become one of my favorites. My Melee are only two Scrappers and a Tanker. I’ve got three Masterminds (desperate attempts, I generally dislike playing them). Of my ~20 characters, aside from the previous mentions, they are “support” roles (Defender, Corruptor, Controller), and every single one of them is built to be solo-sufficient.

 

It isn’t about being “outclassed by another AT” but how that character plays and interacts with the dynamics of the game world. Turning on toggles and mashing that four-combo attack chain only goes so far on the “keeps my interest” meter.

So... let’s not drag AT inferiority complexes into this. 😛 

 

Unpause.

 

49 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Well I'd say people still have a lot learn in this game. 

 

I recently optimized a poison/fire that can out dps most melee builds st and massively in aoe. And of course it provides tons of force multiplication, something  which is rare to the ATs you listed. 

 

Conventional wisdom says poison is an underperforming set. So I'd say the potential of the melee ATs has been well explored because they are pretty straightforward, but many of the "support" sets have barely had the surface scratched.

I was moreso coming at this from the point of view that the previous mentioned AT's have more capable solo abilities just due to their straight up damage/survivability. I guess my post came off the wrong way /shrug... If we were talking about straight solo, that's what I was referring to no character concepts factored in. 

 

For the min/maxer that isn't looking to explore a concept, I don't see why they'd gun for the support AT's over others in solo scenarios. I did NOT say they were bad, I only said that they don't do the same things or excel in the same ways that the previous ATs do to an extent (AS A WHOLE, not ALL cases - one size doesn't fit all.)

 

----

 

Also, I'm far from "a lot learn in this game," I really don't understand why having a view opposing to your own is automatically deemed as "you don't know as much as I do." 

 

I have never put down Poison. I love the set and what it does and think it is wonderfully unique.

 

That said, you took a small snipet of my post and turned it into "you know very little," "my build does x so, this proves how you're wrong!" Without taking into account the general consensus of the AT's as a whole. You can turn things into proc monsters, absolutely. You can abuse outlier sets and Fire Blast, but at the end of the day, you can do the same exact thing to the ones I listed and make them even better. Keep in mind, that while yes, it is a benefit to bring that to the team for a team, we are talking about solo scenarios.

 

Side note, that was kind of rude and unnecessary. 

 

---

 

I want to say that I have Defender builds made to solo, but I have to admit that as great as you can build them, the made-out-of-the-box solo AT's are better at that job than you are just due to the tools they are given, and we do have reliable means to test that (in most cases, again, not all.) I love them, they introduce a wonderful flavor that I find visually and tastefully appealing, but from the view of "what's best to solo with" I can't say that they are, that's what would lead me to tell someone to roll one of the other AT's if they aren't majorly interested in a theme/design.

 

There are really good Defenders and there are terrible Scrappers, it is what it is, that's true of any AT, but as a whole, that is typically how they play out.

 

I also edited my original post slightly to give better clarification as to what I wanted to say. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Peacemoon]

I solo sometimes with all my characters, even my Defender fully geared to teaming! Yes it’s a pain killing an EB when you’ve invested in the entire leadership pool and have barely any attacks, but I enjoy the challenge repurposing my character and trying to overcome that obstacle, and also my own play style I sometimes like a slow and quiet ride. So I have no qualms soloing as a defender or a controller.
 

It’s more fun if your buff/debuff set is useful solo and you can bend it to your needs. An ‘ally only’ set is the worst, really. All characters should be able to solo. There are no buffs ingame that would be overpowered if you could cast them on yourself when solo, even Empathy. Anyway I digress...

 

I just want to give a shout out for AR. It gets such a bad rep on the forums yet in game I find it really fun, effective, and I love the gritty style for concepts. My Rad/AR guy is built for teams and just spams flamethrower on everything suffering from radiation debuffs, and it is simply awesome to watch. The changes to snipes gives ARs snipe real purpose, and it does great damage and also sounds lovely with the proper snipe gunshot sound! And to top it all off, Full Auto, on a 15/20 second recharge, just adds so much AoE damage on a fast recharge. I slot it with artilleryx6 for the extra range and the ranged defence, and it works a treat. 
Also ignite might have its problems in terms of causing fear, but if you hold a boss down with Char (of course he picked Char, he is a flamethrower specialist!), you can then light them up with ignite and they can can’t move. They helplessly sit in the fire patch, effected by his Rad debuff toggles, while you incinerate them and it is pure joy. And it’s fire damage, which we all know is great!
I did skip all the AR powers before Snipe while I loaded up on leadership, but it’s a fun set. 
 

Of course in the above example he would probably be better as Rad/Fire, but then you don’t get the joys of flamethrowers, snipes and full auto 🤣

[Frosticus]

10 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

 

I was moreso coming at this from the point of view that the previous mentioned AT's have more capable solo abilities just due to their straight up damage/survivability. I guess my post came off the wrong way /shrug... If we were talking about straight solo, that's what I was referring to no character concepts factored in. 

 

For the min/maxer that isn't looking to explore a concept, I don't see why they'd gun for the support AT's over others in solo scenarios. I did NOT say they were bad, I only said that they don't do the same things or excel in the same ways that the previous ATs do to an extent (AS A WHOLE, not ALL cases - one size doesn't fit all.)

 

----

 

Also, I'm far from "a lot learn in this game," I really don't understand why having a view opposing to your own is automatically deemed as "you don't know as much as I do." 

 

I have never put down Poison. I love the set and what it does and think it is wonderfully unique.

 

That said, you took a small snipet of my post and turned it into "you know very little," "my build does x so, this proves how you're wrong!" Without taking into account the general consensus of the AT's as a whole. You can turn things into proc monsters, absolutely. You can abuse outlier sets and Fire Blast, but at the end of the day, you can do the same exact thing to the ones I listed and make them even better. Keep in mind, that while yes, it is a benefit to bring that to the team for a team, we are talking about solo scenarios.

 

Side note, that was kind of rude and unnecessary. 

 

---

 

I want to say that I have Defender builds made to solo, but I have to admit that as great as you can build them, the made-out-of-the-box solo AT's are better at that job than you are just due to the tools they are given, and we do have reliable means to test that (in most cases, again, not all.) I love them, they introduce a wonderful flavor that I find visually and tastefully appealing, but from the view of "what's best to solo with" I can't say that they are, that's what would lead me to tell someone to roll one of the other AT's if they aren't majorly interested in a theme/design.

 

There are really good Defenders and there are terrible Scrappers, it is what it is, that's true of any AT, but as a whole, that is typically how they play out.

 

I also edited my original post slightly to give better clarification as to what I wanted to say. 

Apologies, I never meant "you" specifically had a lot to learn. Just in general, the player base has not delved nearly as deep into what the debuff AT's are capable of, or considered different approaches to reach the same end goal. I've long been a proponent of debuffers and I'm still changing my views as I go deeper into the sets that I previously shrugged off. 

 

I recently did an analysis of -damage debuffing. I'm pretty confident that only a tiny portion of forum users and a microscopic portion of players have ever looked at how powerful it can be as a form of mitigation.  Pairing it with a bit of absorption/resistance can provide a level of mitigation that makes softcapped def look greatly inferior for those that have that path available to them. 

 

It just comes down to sheer numbers. There are probably 1000x as many bio characters as cold domination, so if even 2% are min-maxers you end up with a way bigger pool of people pushing bio to the edge and back and a small handful saying "hey I did some cool stuff with my cold defender". It has gone so far that people have done near total breakdowns and comparisons of all the melee attack sets and that information can be applied fairly universally as there is far less hidden synergies to be found between the attack sets and the armor sets compared to the blast(control) sets and the debuff sets. 

 

I would definitely agree with you that the armored AT's provide a much more consistent experience, they rarely experience the same lows as a debuffer, but in doing so they are also cut off from some of the highs. They might be out there (bio and rad armor), but I can't recall any armored builds solo'ing GM's without temps/insp/(lore), but that  is pretty common place for most of the debuff sets (cold, poison, traps, dark, rad, therm) as they have the tools at their disposal. GM's might not be a solo metric that many care about though.

 

A few months ago I was poo-poo'ing poison  because of forum knowledge, looking at mids, and my own biases. If I could go back in time I'd refrain from posting some things with incomplete information.  After shaking off misinformation and my own shortsightedness I've come to learn how/why/when the set excels. It can (and has) solo'd just about everything and more compared to my savage/shield stalker, which is a phenom of a combo in and of itself.  But I will freely admit that the stalker is easier to play and more consistent; doubly so while leveling. 

 

I don't blame past posters for the prevalence of the belief that we "need" softcapped def to excel (which the armored AT's generally reach with more ease and is a large aspect of why they solo "better"). I don't think they set out to close off views to other avenues when providing analysis of game mechanics. That has unfortunately been the result by and large across the forum knowledge base, but as time goes on I think (and hope) we will again see a branching out of approaches. 

 

Again, I apologize for directing it at you. I didn't intend to be rude, but rather was just nipping it in the bud.

 

 

[Linea]

On 4/25/2020 at 1:44 PM, Frosticus said:

... sonic is still the best choice if you want to facilitate team kill speeds even with all the procs in the game. ... It is not the best choice if you yourself want to do personal direct damage ...

Here is how I rank blast sets.

Based on my playstyle, +4x8, Solo, Linea-Style Armored Builds, No-Procs (this was pre-proc builds), Harder Mob Types like Incarnate Resistance that don't clump or play nice for AoEs and Debuffs, etc ... other significant changes have likely happened since then as well ..

But the bottom line is, there are plenty of viable choices other than Sonic.

 

[Linea]

Defenders are, IMO, the most versatile AT.  I can build one defender to be tougher than tanks and have equal to greater damage than that tank (But I don't taunt as well).  I can build another to rival scapper's damage (The scrapper can have better focused damage to cut through the middle of a pile, but much less AoE, and little to no debuff for hard targets).   I can build many that push into the blaster spectrum of damage, and have better survivability than blasters (blasters have better alpha burst, but not long term sustained damage).   The only thing really holding back defenders are the AT caps.  There's just very little I can do about the damage cap and resist cap.  That skews builds toward defense, which means you have to counter DDR, but that's not an impossible thing to do.  And it skews you to defender damage caps which limits your burst damage, but when you can sustain that cap longer, your overall long term sustained damage can be greater.  Depending on exactly which sets, builds , teams, and targets, sometimes a corruptor is better; but by and large the greater flexibility of the defender build usually ends up better.

 

I probably play my main blaster more than my defender or any other build, but I also wholly acknowledge that the defender is overall the more powerful build, only slightly less durable than the tank, and only slightly less damage than the blaster.  The defender however, does take a lot more player resources and in-game resources, the blaster, scrapper, and tank are much easier, simpler, and cheaper to drive.

[Bastille Boy]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:40 PM, Zeraphia said:

If you want to solo (no character concept in mind) and are looking at what does the job best why would you choose Defender/Corruptor (as a whole, there are exceptions**)?

Drawing attention to the asterisks: I thought that certain defender powerset combinations, e.g. Rad/Sonic, were considered some of the strongest solo AV killers in the game.

 

Of course I agree with you that most defenders and corruptors don't like to be alone.

[Pzn]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:23 PM, Linea said:

Here is how I rank blast sets.

Based on my playstyle, +4x8, Solo, Linea-Style Armored Builds, No-Procs (this was pre-proc builds), Harder Mob Types like Incarnate Resistance that don't clump or play nice for AoEs and Debuffs, etc ... other significant changes have likely happened since then as well ..

But the bottom line is, there are plenty of viable choices other than Sonic.

 

It would be interesting to see the rankings with procs taken into account.  Radiation and dual pistols get huge DPS boosts from all the procs they can slot.  I bet they're a lot closer to fire than they used to be.

[Scientist]

On 4/30/2020 at 3:57 PM, josh1622 said:

It would be interesting to see the rankings with procs taken into account.  Radiation and dual pistols get huge DPS boosts from all the procs they can slot.  I bet they're a lot closer to fire than they used to be.

Ice is also pretty good for proc slotting, but this would become a very complex exercise, as you tend to lose recharge and defense by slotting a lot of procs.  How do you value doing more damage in your procced out Cosmic Burst, but at the cost of a worse cycle time for Neutron Bomb?  Or vice versa?  Epics could also matter a lot, my Rad/Rad defender gets as much damage from procced Dominate as from her snipe, even with 2 procs in the snipe, no other "real" ST rad attacks compare.   

[Pzn]

52 minutes ago, Scientist said:

Ice is also pretty good for proc slotting, but this would become a very complex exercise, as you tend to lose recharge and defense by slotting a lot of procs.  How do you value doing more damage in your procced out Cosmic Burst, but at the cost of a worse cycle time for Neutron Bomb?  Or vice versa?  Epics could also matter a lot, my Rad/Rad defender gets as much damage from procced Dominate as from her snipe, even with 2 procs in the snipe, no other "real" ST rad attacks compare.   

The sniper in rad can do more damage than proc'd out dominate if you fully slot it with procs.  I've got it slotted 1 50+5 Apoc dmg, 5 damage procs and it hits a bit higher.  It would be difficult to work out optimal attack chains with procs taken into account.

Edited May 19, 2020 by josh1622

[Flat Line]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:51 PM, Linea said:

Defenders are, IMO, the most versatile AT.  I can build one defender to be tougher than tanks and have equal to greater damage than that tank (But I don't taunt as well).  I can build another to rival scapper's damage (The scrapper can have better focused damage to cut through the middle of a pile, but much less AoE, and little to no debuff for hard targets).   I can build many that push into the blaster spectrum of damage, and have better survivability than blasters (blasters have better alpha burst, but not long term sustained damage).   The only thing really holding back defenders are the AT caps.  There's just very little I can do about the damage cap and resist cap.  That skews builds toward defense, which means you have to counter DDR, but that's not an impossible thing to do.  And it skews you to defender damage caps which limits your burst damage, but when you can sustain that cap longer, your overall long term sustained damage can be greater.  Depending on exactly which sets, builds , teams, and targets, sometimes a corruptor is better; but by and large the greater flexibility of the defender build usually ends up better.

 

I probably play my main blaster more than my defender or any other build, but I also wholly acknowledge that the defender is overall the more powerful build, only slightly less durable than the tank, and only slightly less damage than the blaster.  The defender however, does take a lot more player resources and in-game resources, the blaster, scrapper, and tank are much easier, simpler, and cheaper to drive.

This is very encouraging!

I’ve been searching since way back when CoH launched for one character that can do it all. I hate having alts in games, and I keep trying for that magic combo.

I had thought I’d found it with a Mind/Energy Dominator, but he really suffers with some content solo.

I also have an Eng/Eng blaster that I thought was close. I hated having to time Hasten and perma domination on the dominator, so I made him mostly toggles instead of clicks. He’s got great defence, survivability, and damage.... But boring to cycle through the same attack chain.

Recently tried a scrapper (had a lot of melee on live), but boy do I hate melee in this game. Be it annoying dog piles or enemies being a little too far away.

 

I was hopeful of find that one character as a defender or corruptor. Maybe a controller? On live they were painfully slow, but maybe now with procs?

 

[Sir Myshkin]

13 hours ago, Daemon Creed said:

I was hopeful of find that one character as a defender or corruptor. Maybe a controller? On live they were painfully slow, but maybe now with procs?

It sounds like you could use a little Madness in your life. 😉

[Flat Line]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

It sounds like you could use a little Madness in your life. 😉

Could be right!

I’ve always enjoyed energy. But I thought it was only fun when the damage was still high on a Blaster.

If procs can make it have comparable damage on a Corruptor/Defender, we may have a winner!

I was thinking Ice/Time or Fire/Time, but this definitely adds another dimension...

[Flat Line]

Thinking about it, going energy with Force Feedback recharge procs could also mean dropping hasten (and one more annoying click)!
 

[HauntedToaster]

On 4/24/2020 at 5:27 PM, modest said:

I had a feeling that Hjarki was incorrect in both their numbers and conclusion, so I took my Rad/Sonic Defender to Dark Astoria for some testing. By following the Screech  -> Scream -> Shriek -> Scream attack chain, I reached -88.8 Resistance from Sonic Attack skills alone. With Enervating Field it reached -122.10%.

 

I unslotted Annihilation and Fury of the Gladiator before performing this test, and I did not use Dreadful Wail or Howl to stack additional -Res.

I'm about a year late to this. lol. But how do you see the combat attributes of an enemy target like this? I only know how to see combat attributes for myself.

[HauntedToaster]

I figured it out! It's a temporary power from the P2W vendor called Power Analyzer.

[Doomguide2005]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:34 AM, HauntedToaster said:

I figured it out! It's a temporary power from the P2W vendor called Power Analyzer.

And some powers do it as well.  Specifically Surveillance from Munitions Mastery blaster epic.  Memories a bit foggy but I believe one of the VEAT powers does this as well.

[Wavicle]

On 4/24/2020 at 5:50 PM, warlockiii said:

I just posit that for future Defenders dropping by this forum that they don't all feel it's Sonic or bust

It's definitely not.